Arctic sea ice melt greater than last year

[L.K.Eder]

Rocks, you still have not provided an answer to my question, again, you are avoiding all other facts.

What is the purpose of large bodies of ice in nature?

Are you trying to get into theology or philosophy here? Large masses of ice are the result of the climate that we have experianced and enjoyed over the last 10,000 years. If that ice melts, it is the result of a major change in that climate, a change that will have major effects on the places where mankind lives, and the amount of food that we can raise.

Nature has no purpose. It exists. If, through our own actions, or an accident of nature, a major portion of mankind ceases to exist, it matters not at all to nature. Nature has certain rules, rules we have discovered through the study of sciences such as Physics, Chemistry, Biology, and Geology. When we change one value in those rules, other values change. Nature cares not one whit about those changes.

In other words, nature has no purpose for the large bodies of ice. They are the result of the configuration of the continents, the height of the Himalayas, and the eccentricies in the orbit of the Earth. Purpose is for sentient beings. Nature is neither a being, nor sentient. It simply is.

thanks.

and this spambot KittenKoder is still riding her "serious question".

 

[k2skier]

clueless fuckstick

Sounds like one of those phrases right out of the liberal Democrat handbook to me... Let me guess, you voted for Obama... Dork.

doesnt matter because youre clueless

the ice relfects the suns rays

 

[code1211]

It is significant.

With the Sun at its lowest level of activity in 80 years, the ice should not be melting this fast unless the effect of increasing atmospheric CO2 is worse that expected.

Do you know if there has been any change in the ocean currents?
In the attitude of the Earth in relation to the Sun?
In the TSI of that particular part of the globe?
Of the Air Temperature in that area?
Of the Water Temperature in that area?
Of the amount of all GHG's in the air at that part of the globe?
Of the particular make-up of those GHG's?
Of the number of cloudy days this years vs cloudy days in the past?
Volcanism on the surface and underwater in the area this years and past years?
Resulting albedo changes from volcanism?
Salinity density in the water?
Wind direction and velocity?

You're talking about ice melting that is in water. You say that if ice becomes water, CO2 is causing the melting to occur. You disingenuously set up a consideration in which only CO2 in the Air can have an effect on something in the water and never reference the air temperature or any other factor to prove your point.

Half truth, insinuations and implications are devices, not proof.

You are welcome to provide proof.

 

[Old Rocks]

Code, I have looked at all those issues. As anyone with access to the net can. You are the one bringing lies to the table. The scientists that have studied this issue are all saying that the melting of the Artic Ice is a major tipping point, and that the cause is the increase in heat in the atmosphere caused by the increase in GHGs resulting from man's activities.

 

[Chris]

It is significant.

With the Sun at its lowest level of activity in 80 years, the ice should not be melting this fast unless the effect of increasing atmospheric CO2 is worse that expected.

Do you know if there has been any change in the ocean currents?
In the attitude of the Earth in relation to the Sun?
In the TSI of that particular part of the globe?
Of the Air Temperature in that area?
Of the Water Temperature in that area?
Of the amount of all GHG's in the air at that part of the globe?
Of the particular make-up of those GHG's?
Of the number of cloudy days this years vs cloudy days in the past?
Volcanism on the surface and underwater in the area this years and past years?
Resulting albedo changes from volcanism?
Salinity density in the water?
Wind direction and velocity?

You're talking about ice melting that is in water. You say that if ice becomes water, CO2 is causing the melting to occur. You disingenuously set up a consideration in which only CO2 in the Air can have an effect on something in the water and never reference the air temperature or any other factor to prove your point.

Half truth, insinuations and implications are devices, not proof.

You are welcome to provide proof.

Lies are all you have.

You said I never referenced any other factor to prove my point.

The post you quoted referenced the fact that THE MAJOR FACTOR IN OUR CLIMATE, THE SUN, is at its lowest level of activity in 80 years, so why is the ice still melting?

 

[DiveCon]

It is significant.

With the Sun at its lowest level of activity in 80 years, the ice should not be melting this fast unless the effect of increasing atmospheric CO2 is worse that expected.

Do you know if there has been any change in the ocean currents?
In the attitude of the Earth in relation to the Sun?
In the TSI of that particular part of the globe?
Of the Air Temperature in that area?
Of the Water Temperature in that area?
Of the amount of all GHG's in the air at that part of the globe?
Of the particular make-up of those GHG's?
Of the number of cloudy days this years vs cloudy days in the past?
Volcanism on the surface and underwater in the area this years and past years?
Resulting albedo changes from volcanism?
Salinity density in the water?
Wind direction and velocity?

You're talking about ice melting that is in water. You say that if ice becomes water, CO2 is causing the melting to occur. You disingenuously set up a consideration in which only CO2 in the Air can have an effect on something in the water and never reference the air temperature or any other factor to prove your point.

Half truth, insinuations and implications are devices, not proof.

You are welcome to provide proof.

Lies are all you have.

You said I never referenced any other factor to prove my point.

The post you quoted referenced the fact that THE MAJOR FACTOR IN OUR CLIMATE, THE SUN, is at its lowest level of activity in 80 years, so why is the ice still melting?

he asked questions, moron

 

[Chris]

Do you know if there has been any change in the ocean currents?
In the attitude of the Earth in relation to the Sun?
In the TSI of that particular part of the globe?
Of the Air Temperature in that area?
Of the Water Temperature in that area?
Of the amount of all GHG's in the air at that part of the globe?
Of the particular make-up of those GHG's?
Of the number of cloudy days this years vs cloudy days in the past?
Volcanism on the surface and underwater in the area this years and past years?
Resulting albedo changes from volcanism?
Salinity density in the water?
Wind direction and velocity?

You're talking about ice melting that is in water. You say that if ice becomes water, CO2 is causing the melting to occur. You disingenuously set up a consideration in which only CO2 in the Air can have an effect on something in the water and never reference the air temperature or any other factor to prove your point.

Half truth, insinuations and implications are devices, not proof.

You are welcome to provide proof.

Lies are all you have.

You said I never referenced any other factor to prove my point.

The post you quoted referenced the fact that THE MAJOR FACTOR IN OUR CLIMATE, THE SUN, is at its lowest level of activity in 80 years, so why is the ice still melting?

he asked questions, moron

Have you been checked out by the doctor yet?

 

[elvis]

Lies are all you have.

You said I never referenced any other factor to prove my point.

The post you quoted referenced the fact that THE MAJOR FACTOR IN OUR CLIMATE, THE SUN, is at its lowest level of activity in 80 years, so why is the ice still melting?

he asked questions, moron

Have you been checked out by the doctor yet?

have you been checked by the doctor yet for gonorrhea of the throat? Old rocks has been diagnosed with gonorrhea, so you may want to get checked out.

 

[Old Rocks]

Change in ocean currents




Abrupt Climate Change: Should We Be Worried? ShareThis E-mail Print PDF







Download pdf version of brochure



Enlarge Image

THE GLOBAL OCEAN CONVEYOR—The global ocean circulation system, often called the Ocean Conveyor, transports heat throughout the planet. White sections represent warm surface currents. Purple sections represent deep cold currents. (Illustration by Jayne Doucette, WHOI)



Enlarge Image

DRAMATIC CHANGES IN THE NORTH ATLANTIC—Subpolar seas bordering the North Atlantic have become noticeably less salty since the mid-1960s, especially in the last decade. This is the largest and most dramatic oceanic change ever measured in the era of modern instruments. This has resulted in a freshening of the deep ocean in the North Atlantic, which in the past disrupted the Ocean Conveyor and caused abrupt climate changes. (B. Dickson, et. al., in Nature, April 2002)



Enlarge Image

DRAMATIC CHANGES IN THE NORTH ATLANTIC—Subpolar seas bordering the North Atlantic have become noticeably less salty since the mid-1960s, especially in the last decade. This is the largest and most dramatic oceanic change ever measured in the era of modern instruments. This has resulted in a freshening of the deep ocean in the North Atlantic, which in the past disrupted the Ocean Conveyor and caused abrupt climate changes. (B. Dickson, et. al., in Nature, April 2002)



Enlarge Image

A LONG RECORD OF ABRUPT CLIMATE CHANGES—Ice cores extracted from the two-mile thick Greenland ice sheet preserve records of ancient air temperatures. The records show several times when climate shifted in time spans as short as a decade.

The Younger Dryas—about 12,700 years ago, average temperatures in the North Atlantic region abruptly plummeted nearly 5°C and remained that way for 1,300 years before rapidly warming again.

The 8,200-Year Event—A similar abrupt cooling occurred 8,200 years ago. It was not so severe and lasted only about a century. But if a similar cooling event occurred today, it would be catastrophic.

The Medieval Period—An abrupt warming took place about 1,000 years ago. It was not nearly so dramatic as past events, but it nevertheless allowed the Norse to establish settlements in Greenland.

The Little Ice Age—The Norse abandoned their Greenland settlements when the climate turned abruptly colder 700 years ago. Between 1300 and 1850, severe winters had profound agricultural, economic, and political impacts in Europe. (R.B. Alley, from The Two-Mile Time Machine, 2000)



Enlarge Image

8,200 YEARS AGO—AN ABRUPTLY COLDER, DRIER EARTH—Rapid changes in ocean circulation are linked to an abrupt climate change 8,200 years ago that had global effects. Some regions turned significantly colder while others experienced widespread drought. (R.B. Alley, et al., in Geology, 1997)



Related Multimedia

The Ocean Conveyor
The Ocean Conveyor is propelled by the sinking of cold, salty (and therefore denser) waters in the North Atlantic Ocean (blue lines). That creates a void that pulls warm, slaty surface waters northward (red lines). The ocean gives up its heat to the atmosphere above the North Atlantic Ocean, and prevailing winds (large red arrows) carry the heat eastward to warm Europe.
Illustration and animation by Jack Cook, WHOI
» View Video (Quicktime)



If Too Much Fresh Water Enters the North Atlantic
If too much fresh water enters the North Atlantic, its waters could stop sinking. The Conveyor would cease. Heat-bearing Gulf Stream waters (red lines) would no longer flow into the North Atlantic, and European and North American winters would become more severe.
Illustration and animation by Jack Cook, WHOI
» View Video (Quicktime)

Abrupt Climate Change: Should We Be Worried? : Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution


Robert B. Gagosian
President and Director
Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution

Prepared for a panel on abrupt climate change at the
World Economic Forum
Davos, Switzerland, January 27, 2003

Are we overlooking potential abrupt climate shifts?
Most of the studies and debates on potential climate change, along with its ecological and economic impacts, have focused on the ongoing buildup of industrial greenhouse gases in the atmosphere and a gradual increase in global temperatures. This line of thinking, however, fails to consider another potentially disruptive climate scenario. It ignores recent and rapidly advancing evidence that Earth’s climate repeatedly has shifted abruptly and dramatically in the past, and is capable of doing so in the future.

Fossil evidence clearly demonstrates that Earthvs climate can shift gears within a decade, establishing new and different patterns that can persist for decades to centuries. In addition, these climate shifts do not necessarily have universal, global effects. They can generate a counterintuitive scenario: Even as the earth as a whole continues to warm gradually, large regions may experience a precipitous and disruptive shift into colder climates.

This new paradigm of abrupt climate change has been well established over the last decade by research of ocean, earth and atmosphere scientists at many institutions worldwide. But the concept remains little known and scarcely appreciated in the wider community of scientists, economists, policy makers, and world political and business leaders. Thus, world leaders may be planning for climate scenarios of global warming that are opposite to what might actually occur.1

It is important to clarify that we are not contemplating a situation of either abrupt cooling or global warming. Rather, abrupt regional cooling and gradual global warming can unfold simultaneously. Indeed, greenhouse warming is a destabilizing factor that makes abrupt climate change more probable. A 2002 report by the US National Academy of Sciences (NAS) said, “available evidence suggests that abrupt climate changes are not only possible but likely in the future, potentially with large impacts on ecosystems and societies.”2

The timing of any abrupt regional cooling in the future also has critical policy implications. An abrupt cooling that happens within the next two decades would produce different climate effects than one that occurs after another century of continuing greenhouse warming.

 

[Old Rocks]

Attitude of earth in relationship to the sun. Better known as Milankovic Cycles.


Milankovitch cycles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Milankovitch cycles
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Past and future Milankovitch cycles. VSOP allows prediction of past and future orbital parameters with great accuracy. ε is obliquity (axial tilt). e is eccentricity. ϖ is longitude of perihelion. esin(&#982 is the precession index, which together with obliquity, controls the seasonal cycle of insolation. is the calculated daily-averaged insolation at the top of the atmosphere, on the day of the summer solstice at 65 N latitude. Benthic forams and Vostok ice core show two distinct proxies for past global sealevel and temperature, from ocean sediment and Antarctic ice respectively. Vertical gray line is current conditions, at 2 ky A.D.Milankovitch Theory describes the collective effects of changes in the Earth's movements upon its climate, named after Serbian civil engineer and mathematician Milutin Milanković. Milanković mathematically theorised that variations in eccentricity, axial tilt, and precession of the Earth's orbit determined climatic patterns on Earth, resulting in 100,000-year ice age cycles of the Quaternary glaciation over the last few million years. The Earth's axis completes one full cycle of precession approximately every 26,000 years. At the same time, the elliptical orbit rotates, more slowly, leading to a 23,000-year cycle between the seasons and the orbit. In addition, the angle between Earth's rotational axis and the normal to the plane of its orbit moves from 22.1 degrees to 24.5 degrees and back again on a 41,000-year cycle. Currently, this angle is 23.44 degrees and is decreasing.

 

[Chris]

he asked questions, moron

Have you been checked out by the doctor yet?

have you been checked by the doctor yet for gonorrhea of the throat? Old rocks has been diagnosed with gonorrhea, so you may want to get checked out.

People who engage in personal attacks should be banned from the board.

 

[elvis]

Have you been checked out by the doctor yet?

have you been checked by the doctor yet for gonorrhea of the throat? Old rocks has been diagnosed with gonorrhea, so you may want to get checked out.

People who engage in personal attacks should be banned from the board.

Oh I see the problem. You were too much of a shit stain to get insurance and now you're going to have to either bite the bullet and pay or live with gonorrhea of the throat.

 

[code1211]

Code, I have looked at all those issues. As anyone with access to the net can. You are the one bringing lies to the table. The scientists that have studied this issue are all saying that the melting of the Artic Ice is a major tipping point, and that the cause is the increase in heat in the atmosphere caused by the increase in GHGs resulting from man's activities.

Is a question a lie?

I am asking if the only cause available is the CO2 in the atmosphere. The questions only ask if the poster has considered any other possibility or if, like you, he is isolating only one cause to support a pre-drawn conclusion.

If this is a tipping point, what is the dire consequence? Has this particular tipping point been reached before? The climate was about 1 full degree warmer than now since the last Ice Age and yet our world is in the condition that it is now and was in the condition that you seem to prefer for hundreds of years in between that temperature high and now.

This might indicate to some that this "tipping point" is not in truth a tipping point, but is really just an observable event more like a sun rise than comet impact. It's natural, regular and note worthy only as it exposes our limited understanding.

 

[code1211]

It is significant.

With the Sun at its lowest level of activity in 80 years, the ice should not be melting this fast unless the effect of increasing atmospheric CO2 is worse that expected.

Do you know if there has been any change in the ocean currents?
In the attitude of the Earth in relation to the Sun?
In the TSI of that particular part of the globe?
Of the Air Temperature in that area?
Of the Water Temperature in that area?
Of the amount of all GHG's in the air at that part of the globe?
Of the particular make-up of those GHG's?
Of the number of cloudy days this years vs cloudy days in the past?
Volcanism on the surface and underwater in the area this years and past years?
Resulting albedo changes from volcanism?
Salinity density in the water?
Wind direction and velocity?

You're talking about ice melting that is in water. You say that if ice becomes water, CO2 is causing the melting to occur. You disingenuously set up a consideration in which only CO2 in the Air can have an effect on something in the water and never reference the air temperature or any other factor to prove your point.

Half truth, insinuations and implications are devices, not proof.

You are welcome to provide proof.

Lies are all you have.

You said I never referenced any other factor to prove my point.

The post you quoted referenced the fact that THE MAJOR FACTOR IN OUR CLIMATE, THE SUN, is at its lowest level of activity in 80 years, so why is the ice still melting?

The questions illustrate that there are various other possibilities that you ignore. You draw a conclusion that there is only one possible cause to melting ice. You ignore any other possibility. This is a great way to expand your understanding. It worked for the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages after a fashion.

It should work as well for you.

After a fashion.

 

[Douger]

The melting ice is Clintons fault.
Gawd Blass Amurka !

 

[CrusaderFrank]

"A LONG RECORD OF ABRUPT CLIMATE CHANGES—Ice cores extracted from the two-mile thick Greenland ice sheet preserve records of ancient air temperatures. The records show several times when climate shifted in time spans as short as a decade.

The Younger Dryas—about 12,700 years ago, average temperatures in the North Atlantic region abruptly plummeted nearly 5°C and remained that way for 1,300 years before rapidly warming again.

The 8,200-Year Event—A similar abrupt cooling occurred 8,200 years ago. It was not so severe and lasted only about a century. But if a similar cooling event occurred today, it would be catastrophic.

The Medieval Period—An abrupt warming took place about 1,000 years ago. It was not nearly so dramatic as past events, but it nevertheless allowed the Norse to establish settlements in Greenland.

The Little Ice Age—The Norse abandoned their Greenland settlements when the climate turned abruptly colder 700 years ago. Between 1300 and 1850, severe winters had profound agricultural, economic, and political impacts in Europe. (R.B. Alley, from The Two-Mile Time Machine, 2000)"

This can only mean that the SUV is far older than anyone ever envisioned!!

How you stupid fucking AGW people continue to post after this is beyond me.

 

[Old Rocks]

By the Milankovic Cycles, we should be descending, slowly, into another ice age. The little Ice age was what should be more the norm, at present. The Maunder Minimum was only part of the reason that it was that cold. Now, we are at present in a period when the sunspot cycle is very inactive. And we had a strong and persistant La Nina. We should have had some exceptionally cold years from 2003 to 2008.
We had years that rank in the top ten for warmth. As we are entering an El Nino now, I expect to see the record years of 1998 and 2005 eclipsed.

And then you fellows will be saying that the sun is the cause of the record year even as you are saying we are still in a cooling trend because the sun is not very active this cycle.LOL

 

[CrusaderFrank]

By the Milankovic Cycles, we should be descending, slowly, into another ice age. The little Ice age was what should be more the norm, at present. The Maunder Minimum was only part of the reason that it was that cold. Now, we are at present in a period when the sunspot cycle is very inactive. And we had a strong and persistant La Nina. We should have had some exceptionally cold years from 2003 to 2008.
We had years that rank in the top ten for warmth. As we are entering an El Nino now, I expect to see the record years of 1998 and 2005 eclipsed.

And then you fellows will be saying that the sun is the cause of the record year even as you are saying we are still in a cooling trend because the sun is not very active this cycle.LOL

Have you heard of the "Pioneer Anomaly"?

The laws of physics, our most bedrock science don't seem to want to pay any fucking attention to us! How are we suppose to take "Climate """SCIENCE""" Seriously??

 

[Old Rocks]

And the 'Pioneer Anamoly' has what to do with global warming? Are you trying to say that scientists don't know shit from shinola? And doing so while sitting at the keyboard of a computer, posting on the world-wide net? Does not the irony of your statement not hit you in the face?

The laws of physics are what states that adding GHGs to the atmosphere will result in warming the planet.

 

[code1211]

And the 'Pioneer Anamoly' has what to do with global warming? Are you trying to say that scientists don't know shit from shinola? And doing so while sitting at the keyboard of a computer, posting on the world-wide net? Does not the irony of your statement not hit you in the face?

The laws of physics are what states that adding GHGs to the atmosphere will result in warming the planet.

That's nice. If only the history of the planet said the same thing.