Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?

[ding]

So doesn't that violate the free will that was supposedly given to man by his creator?

Absolutely as the script is quite clear. I don't know where that free will thing came into play as A & E were given commands to follow and punishments if they did not do as told to do, and commands seem to screw up free will quite well.

Satan or the talking serpent were there to insure that Adam sinned so that Christians could later sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

Christians do not know if sin is evil or not, given that it is necessary to god's plan.

This must be true as Christians always run from such discussions.

Regards
DL

But if Adam had no free will then he couldn't have disobeyed. If as you say it was the creator who decided what Adam would believe then the creator must have decided Adam would believe Eve and commit a sin.

You can't say there is no free will then blame someone else besides the creator for the sins of his creations.

Why are you reading these accounts literally?

You read the bible literally do you not?

If so, Jesus cannot be a literally real person to you.

Regards
DL

No. Not the allegorical accounts anyway.

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not really write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Approximately 800 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 800 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

So if we start from the belief that the first eleven chapters of the Torah are an allegorical account of world history before the great migration from Mesopotamia - which was an actual historical event - then the first eleven chapters of the Torah takes on new meaning. Seen in this light these accounts should be viewed less like fairy tales and more like how important information was passed down in ancient times. Just as the Chinese used well known history and everyday things as symbols in their written language to make words easier to remember, ancient man used stories to pass down historical events and important knowledge to future generations. Interspersed in these allegorical accounts of history are wisdoms that they deemed important enough to pass down and remember. Such as man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he didn't do wrong. Most people don't even realize this wisdom is in the Torah because they read it critically instead of searching for the wisdom that ancient man knew and found important enough to include in his account of world history.

We have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, we are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. We read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make ourselves feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom. Shame on us.

I don't think so. The Hebrews emerged from the North Coast Canaanites and followed the Canaanite Pantheon.

So you believe that what Moses recorded in the first 11 chapters of Genesis was not common knowledge in his day?

No I don't believe Moses had anything to to with the Genesis. Scholars think that the OT had some 40 authors and was redacted many times. The Hebrews learned the stories the adapted for Genesis during the Babylonian Exile.. They really had no founding narratives or origin stories until they were exposed to the richness of the Babylonian culture.

Then substitue whoever you want instead, the point still stands. What was recorded in the 1st 11 chapters in Genesis was passed down orally from generation to generation for thousands of years before it was written down.

How else do you think they passed down knowledge, information, history, wisdom, etc.?

The Hebrews borrowed the myths and poetry and foundation narratives from successful, older civilizations around them.

So they all shared a common culture prior to the great migration captured in the account of the Tower of Babel. You are actually proving my point.

The Tower of Babel is about the collapse of a civilization.. There are ziggurats all over the ME. The great migration probably occurred with the slow rising Black Sea breech. That seems to be the time of the rapid spread of organized agriculture.

The Flood story is just an adaptation of the Sumerian story about a flood in the Euphrates River Basin.

The stories are valuable as morality tales, but they aren't history.

Wrong. It is an allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. The original meaning of the allegorical accounts of the first 11 chapters of Genesis has been lost through time.

What great migration out of Mesopotamia? They were Aryans.. probably from India. The Natufians of Palestine and the Levant date to 14,000 years ago. They have found stone granaries in Jordan that are that old.

The one captured in the account of the Tower of Babel. Did you even read that account?

So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth

The floods didn't happen at the same time. You are still taking the OT literally.

Roughly the same time all around the planet. They even probably lasted weeks or months. Vaporizing 1500 gigatons of ice will do that.

I am telling you that something happened extraordinary that was noteworthy and memorable. So much so that stories were told and passed down for generations in an allegorical fashion. That's not the same thing as me reading the account of the flood literally.

There have been asteroid strikes but they were NOT at the same time or even near each other in time. Aesop's Fables were written by a Greek slave about the same time as the OT.

There are two craters in Greenland. They think they occurred ~12,000 years ago. This was during the time of humans and this event could have been the source for the flood accounts that ever major ancient civilization recorded. We do not know from those accounts when the floods occurred. All we can know is that those accounts were most likely passed down orally as was the case for all information that was passed down in ancient times.

 

[surada]

So doesn't that violate the free will that was supposedly given to man by his creator?

Absolutely as the script is quite clear. I don't know where that free will thing came into play as A & E were given commands to follow and punishments if they did not do as told to do, and commands seem to screw up free will quite well.

Satan or the talking serpent were there to insure that Adam sinned so that Christians could later sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

Christians do not know if sin is evil or not, given that it is necessary to god's plan.

This must be true as Christians always run from such discussions.

Regards
DL

But if Adam had no free will then he couldn't have disobeyed. If as you say it was the creator who decided what Adam would believe then the creator must have decided Adam would believe Eve and commit a sin.

You can't say there is no free will then blame someone else besides the creator for the sins of his creations.

Why are you reading these accounts literally?

You read the bible literally do you not?

If so, Jesus cannot be a literally real person to you.

Regards
DL

No. Not the allegorical accounts anyway.

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not really write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Approximately 800 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 800 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

So if we start from the belief that the first eleven chapters of the Torah are an allegorical account of world history before the great migration from Mesopotamia - which was an actual historical event - then the first eleven chapters of the Torah takes on new meaning. Seen in this light these accounts should be viewed less like fairy tales and more like how important information was passed down in ancient times. Just as the Chinese used well known history and everyday things as symbols in their written language to make words easier to remember, ancient man used stories to pass down historical events and important knowledge to future generations. Interspersed in these allegorical accounts of history are wisdoms that they deemed important enough to pass down and remember. Such as man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he didn't do wrong. Most people don't even realize this wisdom is in the Torah because they read it critically instead of searching for the wisdom that ancient man knew and found important enough to include in his account of world history.

We have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, we are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. We read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make ourselves feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom. Shame on us.

I don't think so. The Hebrews emerged from the North Coast Canaanites and followed the Canaanite Pantheon.

So you believe that what Moses recorded in the first 11 chapters of Genesis was not common knowledge in his day?

No I don't believe Moses had anything to to with the Genesis. Scholars think that the OT had some 40 authors and was redacted many times. The Hebrews learned the stories the adapted for Genesis during the Babylonian Exile.. They really had no founding narratives or origin stories until they were exposed to the richness of the Babylonian culture.

Then substitue whoever you want instead, the point still stands. What was recorded in the 1st 11 chapters in Genesis was passed down orally from generation to generation for thousands of years before it was written down.

How else do you think they passed down knowledge, information, history, wisdom, etc.?

The Hebrews borrowed the myths and poetry and foundation narratives from successful, older civilizations around them.

So they all shared a common culture prior to the great migration captured in the account of the Tower of Babel. You are actually proving my point.

The Tower of Babel is about the collapse of a civilization.. There are ziggurats all over the ME. The great migration probably occurred with the slow rising Black Sea breech. That seems to be the time of the rapid spread of organized agriculture.

The Flood story is just an adaptation of the Sumerian story about a flood in the Euphrates River Basin.

The stories are valuable as morality tales, but they aren't history.

Wrong. It is an allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. The original meaning of the allegorical accounts of the first 11 chapters of Genesis has been lost through time.

What great migration out of Mesopotamia? They were Aryans.. probably from India. The Natufians of Palestine and the Levant date to 14,000 years ago. They have found stone granaries in Jordan that are that old.

The one captured in the account of the Tower of Babel. Did you even read that account?

So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth

The floods didn't happen at the same time. You are still taking the OT literally.

Roughly the same time all around the planet. They even probably lasted weeks or months. Vaporizing 1500 gigatons of ice will do that.

I am telling you that something happened extraordinary that was noteworthy and memorable. So much so that stories were told and passed down for generations in an allegorical fashion. That's not the same thing as me reading the account of the flood literally.

The glaciers retreated quite slowly over 10,000 years ago. Until then Arabia was a savanna with wadis and shallow lakes.

There just wasn't any world wide flood. The Myth is Gilgmesh .. The gods were unhappy with the humans because they were too noisy....

You probably believe in man made global warming too, right?

To a certain extent, yes. Alexander the Great pulled down the Tower of Babel. Its a man made story.

The timelines don't match up.

These are ancient accounts.

Again... The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not really write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Approximately 800 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 800 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

Its a man made story.. Cyrus the Great tore down the staircase to the Ziggurat and Alexander the Great pulled the rest of it down.

 

[Likkmee]

We are not of this world. U iz.;0

 

[ding]

So doesn't that violate the free will that was supposedly given to man by his creator?

Absolutely as the script is quite clear. I don't know where that free will thing came into play as A & E were given commands to follow and punishments if they did not do as told to do, and commands seem to screw up free will quite well.

Satan or the talking serpent were there to insure that Adam sinned so that Christians could later sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

Christians do not know if sin is evil or not, given that it is necessary to god's plan.

This must be true as Christians always run from such discussions.

Regards
DL

But if Adam had no free will then he couldn't have disobeyed. If as you say it was the creator who decided what Adam would believe then the creator must have decided Adam would believe Eve and commit a sin.

You can't say there is no free will then blame someone else besides the creator for the sins of his creations.

Why are you reading these accounts literally?

You read the bible literally do you not?

If so, Jesus cannot be a literally real person to you.

Regards
DL

No. Not the allegorical accounts anyway.

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not really write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Approximately 800 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 800 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

So if we start from the belief that the first eleven chapters of the Torah are an allegorical account of world history before the great migration from Mesopotamia - which was an actual historical event - then the first eleven chapters of the Torah takes on new meaning. Seen in this light these accounts should be viewed less like fairy tales and more like how important information was passed down in ancient times. Just as the Chinese used well known history and everyday things as symbols in their written language to make words easier to remember, ancient man used stories to pass down historical events and important knowledge to future generations. Interspersed in these allegorical accounts of history are wisdoms that they deemed important enough to pass down and remember. Such as man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he didn't do wrong. Most people don't even realize this wisdom is in the Torah because they read it critically instead of searching for the wisdom that ancient man knew and found important enough to include in his account of world history.

We have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, we are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. We read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make ourselves feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom. Shame on us.

I don't think so. The Hebrews emerged from the North Coast Canaanites and followed the Canaanite Pantheon.

So you believe that what Moses recorded in the first 11 chapters of Genesis was not common knowledge in his day?

No I don't believe Moses had anything to to with the Genesis. Scholars think that the OT had some 40 authors and was redacted many times. The Hebrews learned the stories the adapted for Genesis during the Babylonian Exile.. They really had no founding narratives or origin stories until they were exposed to the richness of the Babylonian culture.

Then substitue whoever you want instead, the point still stands. What was recorded in the 1st 11 chapters in Genesis was passed down orally from generation to generation for thousands of years before it was written down.

How else do you think they passed down knowledge, information, history, wisdom, etc.?

The Hebrews borrowed the myths and poetry and foundation narratives from successful, older civilizations around them.

So they all shared a common culture prior to the great migration captured in the account of the Tower of Babel. You are actually proving my point.

The Tower of Babel is about the collapse of a civilization.. There are ziggurats all over the ME. The great migration probably occurred with the slow rising Black Sea breech. That seems to be the time of the rapid spread of organized agriculture.

The Flood story is just an adaptation of the Sumerian story about a flood in the Euphrates River Basin.

The stories are valuable as morality tales, but they aren't history.

Wrong. It is an allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. The original meaning of the allegorical accounts of the first 11 chapters of Genesis has been lost through time.

What great migration out of Mesopotamia? They were Aryans.. probably from India. The Natufians of Palestine and the Levant date to 14,000 years ago. They have found stone granaries in Jordan that are that old.

The one captured in the account of the Tower of Babel. Did you even read that account?

So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth

The floods didn't happen at the same time. You are still taking the OT literally.

Roughly the same time all around the planet. They even probably lasted weeks or months. Vaporizing 1500 gigatons of ice will do that.

I am telling you that something happened extraordinary that was noteworthy and memorable. So much so that stories were told and passed down for generations in an allegorical fashion. That's not the same thing as me reading the account of the flood literally.

The glaciers retreated quite slowly over 10,000 years ago. Until then Arabia was a savanna with wadis and shallow lakes.

There just wasn't any world wide flood. The Myth is Gilgmesh .. The gods were unhappy with the humans because they were too noisy....

You probably believe in man made global warming too, right?

To a certain extent, yes. Alexander the Great pulled down the Tower of Babel. Its a man made story.

The timelines don't match up.

These are ancient accounts.

Again... The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not really write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Approximately 800 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 800 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

Its a man made story.. Cyrus the Great tore down the staircase to the Ziggurat and Alexander the Great pulled the rest of it down.

That was recorded 4500 years ago as symbols in the Chinese written language and passed down orally from generation to generation before that.

 

[surada]

So doesn't that violate the free will that was supposedly given to man by his creator?

Absolutely as the script is quite clear. I don't know where that free will thing came into play as A & E were given commands to follow and punishments if they did not do as told to do, and commands seem to screw up free will quite well.

Satan or the talking serpent were there to insure that Adam sinned so that Christians could later sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

Christians do not know if sin is evil or not, given that it is necessary to god's plan.

This must be true as Christians always run from such discussions.

Regards
DL

But if Adam had no free will then he couldn't have disobeyed. If as you say it was the creator who decided what Adam would believe then the creator must have decided Adam would believe Eve and commit a sin.

You can't say there is no free will then blame someone else besides the creator for the sins of his creations.

Why are you reading these accounts literally?

You read the bible literally do you not?

If so, Jesus cannot be a literally real person to you.

Regards
DL

No. Not the allegorical accounts anyway.

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not really write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Approximately 800 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 800 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

So if we start from the belief that the first eleven chapters of the Torah are an allegorical account of world history before the great migration from Mesopotamia - which was an actual historical event - then the first eleven chapters of the Torah takes on new meaning. Seen in this light these accounts should be viewed less like fairy tales and more like how important information was passed down in ancient times. Just as the Chinese used well known history and everyday things as symbols in their written language to make words easier to remember, ancient man used stories to pass down historical events and important knowledge to future generations. Interspersed in these allegorical accounts of history are wisdoms that they deemed important enough to pass down and remember. Such as man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he didn't do wrong. Most people don't even realize this wisdom is in the Torah because they read it critically instead of searching for the wisdom that ancient man knew and found important enough to include in his account of world history.

We have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, we are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. We read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make ourselves feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom. Shame on us.

I don't think so. The Hebrews emerged from the North Coast Canaanites and followed the Canaanite Pantheon.

So you believe that what Moses recorded in the first 11 chapters of Genesis was not common knowledge in his day?

No I don't believe Moses had anything to to with the Genesis. Scholars think that the OT had some 40 authors and was redacted many times. The Hebrews learned the stories the adapted for Genesis during the Babylonian Exile.. They really had no founding narratives or origin stories until they were exposed to the richness of the Babylonian culture.

Then substitue whoever you want instead, the point still stands. What was recorded in the 1st 11 chapters in Genesis was passed down orally from generation to generation for thousands of years before it was written down.

How else do you think they passed down knowledge, information, history, wisdom, etc.?

The Hebrews borrowed the myths and poetry and foundation narratives from successful, older civilizations around them.

So they all shared a common culture prior to the great migration captured in the account of the Tower of Babel. You are actually proving my point.

The Tower of Babel is about the collapse of a civilization.. There are ziggurats all over the ME. The great migration probably occurred with the slow rising Black Sea breech. That seems to be the time of the rapid spread of organized agriculture.

The Flood story is just an adaptation of the Sumerian story about a flood in the Euphrates River Basin.

The stories are valuable as morality tales, but they aren't history.

Wrong. It is an allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. The original meaning of the allegorical accounts of the first 11 chapters of Genesis has been lost through time.

What great migration out of Mesopotamia? They were Aryans.. probably from India. The Natufians of Palestine and the Levant date to 14,000 years ago. They have found stone granaries in Jordan that are that old.

The one captured in the account of the Tower of Babel. Did you even read that account?

So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth

The floods didn't happen at the same time. You are still taking the OT literally.

Roughly the same time all around the planet. They even probably lasted weeks or months. Vaporizing 1500 gigatons of ice will do that.

I am telling you that something happened extraordinary that was noteworthy and memorable. So much so that stories were told and passed down for generations in an allegorical fashion. That's not the same thing as me reading the account of the flood literally.

There have been asteroid strikes but they were NOT at the same time or even near each other in time. Aesop's Fables were written by a Greek slave about the same time as the OT.

There are two craters in Greenland. They think they occurred ~12,000 years ago. This was during the time of humans and this event could have been the source for the flood accounts that ever major ancient civilization recorded. We do not know from those accounts when the floods occurred. All we can know is that those accounts were most likely passed down orally as was the case for all information that was passed down in ancient times.

Noah's flood was a real 4 day flood of the Euphrates River Basin in 2900 BC.. It did leave a flood footprint 150 miles wide and 350 miles south to the Persian Gulf.

So doesn't that violate the free will that was supposedly given to man by his creator?

Absolutely as the script is quite clear. I don't know where that free will thing came into play as A & E were given commands to follow and punishments if they did not do as told to do, and commands seem to screw up free will quite well.

Satan or the talking serpent were there to insure that Adam sinned so that Christians could later sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

Christians do not know if sin is evil or not, given that it is necessary to god's plan.

This must be true as Christians always run from such discussions.

Regards
DL

But if Adam had no free will then he couldn't have disobeyed. If as you say it was the creator who decided what Adam would believe then the creator must have decided Adam would believe Eve and commit a sin.

You can't say there is no free will then blame someone else besides the creator for the sins of his creations.

Why are you reading these accounts literally?

You read the bible literally do you not?

If so, Jesus cannot be a literally real person to you.

Regards
DL

No. Not the allegorical accounts anyway.

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not really write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Approximately 800 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 800 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

So if we start from the belief that the first eleven chapters of the Torah are an allegorical account of world history before the great migration from Mesopotamia - which was an actual historical event - then the first eleven chapters of the Torah takes on new meaning. Seen in this light these accounts should be viewed less like fairy tales and more like how important information was passed down in ancient times. Just as the Chinese used well known history and everyday things as symbols in their written language to make words easier to remember, ancient man used stories to pass down historical events and important knowledge to future generations. Interspersed in these allegorical accounts of history are wisdoms that they deemed important enough to pass down and remember. Such as man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he didn't do wrong. Most people don't even realize this wisdom is in the Torah because they read it critically instead of searching for the wisdom that ancient man knew and found important enough to include in his account of world history.

We have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, we are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. We read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make ourselves feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom. Shame on us.

I don't think so. The Hebrews emerged from the North Coast Canaanites and followed the Canaanite Pantheon.

So you believe that what Moses recorded in the first 11 chapters of Genesis was not common knowledge in his day?

No I don't believe Moses had anything to to with the Genesis. Scholars think that the OT had some 40 authors and was redacted many times. The Hebrews learned the stories the adapted for Genesis during the Babylonian Exile.. They really had no founding narratives or origin stories until they were exposed to the richness of the Babylonian culture.

Then substitue whoever you want instead, the point still stands. What was recorded in the 1st 11 chapters in Genesis was passed down orally from generation to generation for thousands of years before it was written down.

How else do you think they passed down knowledge, information, history, wisdom, etc.?

The Hebrews borrowed the myths and poetry and foundation narratives from successful, older civilizations around them.

So they all shared a common culture prior to the great migration captured in the account of the Tower of Babel. You are actually proving my point.

The Tower of Babel is about the collapse of a civilization.. There are ziggurats all over the ME. The great migration probably occurred with the slow rising Black Sea breech. That seems to be the time of the rapid spread of organized agriculture.

The Flood story is just an adaptation of the Sumerian story about a flood in the Euphrates River Basin.

The stories are valuable as morality tales, but they aren't history.

Wrong. It is an allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. The original meaning of the allegorical accounts of the first 11 chapters of Genesis has been lost through time.

What great migration out of Mesopotamia? They were Aryans.. probably from India. The Natufians of Palestine and the Levant date to 14,000 years ago. They have found stone granaries in Jordan that are that old.

The one captured in the account of the Tower of Babel. Did you even read that account?

So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth

The floods didn't happen at the same time. You are still taking the OT literally.

Roughly the same time all around the planet. They even probably lasted weeks or months. Vaporizing 1500 gigatons of ice will do that.

I am telling you that something happened extraordinary that was noteworthy and memorable. So much so that stories were told and passed down for generations in an allegorical fashion. That's not the same thing as me reading the account of the flood literally.

The glaciers retreated quite slowly over 10,000 years ago. Until then Arabia was a savanna with wadis and shallow lakes.

There just wasn't any world wide flood. The Myth is Gilgmesh .. The gods were unhappy with the humans because they were too noisy....

You probably believe in man made global warming too, right?

To a certain extent, yes. Alexander the Great pulled down the Tower of Babel. Its a man made story.

The timelines don't match up.

These are ancient accounts.

Again... The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not really write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Approximately 800 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 800 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

Its a man made story.. Cyrus the Great tore down the staircase to the Ziggurat and Alexander the Great pulled the rest of it down.

That was recorded 4500 years ago as symbols in the Chinese written language and passed down orally from generation to generation before that.

Great Flood (China) - Wikipedia

Great Flood (China) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Great Flood of Gun-Yu (Chinese: 鯀禹治水), also known as the Gun-Yu myth, was a major flood event in ancient China that allegedly continued for at least two generations, which resulted in great population displacements among other disasters, such as storms and famine. People left their homes to live on the high hills and mounts, or nest on the trees. According to mythological and historical sources, it is traditionally dated to the third millennium BCE, or about 2300-2200 BC, during the reign of Emperor Yao.

 

[ding]

So doesn't that violate the free will that was supposedly given to man by his creator?

Absolutely as the script is quite clear. I don't know where that free will thing came into play as A & E were given commands to follow and punishments if they did not do as told to do, and commands seem to screw up free will quite well.

Satan or the talking serpent were there to insure that Adam sinned so that Christians could later sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

Christians do not know if sin is evil or not, given that it is necessary to god's plan.

This must be true as Christians always run from such discussions.

Regards
DL

But if Adam had no free will then he couldn't have disobeyed. If as you say it was the creator who decided what Adam would believe then the creator must have decided Adam would believe Eve and commit a sin.

You can't say there is no free will then blame someone else besides the creator for the sins of his creations.

Why are you reading these accounts literally?

You read the bible literally do you not?

If so, Jesus cannot be a literally real person to you.

Regards
DL

No. Not the allegorical accounts anyway.

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not really write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Approximately 800 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 800 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

So if we start from the belief that the first eleven chapters of the Torah are an allegorical account of world history before the great migration from Mesopotamia - which was an actual historical event - then the first eleven chapters of the Torah takes on new meaning. Seen in this light these accounts should be viewed less like fairy tales and more like how important information was passed down in ancient times. Just as the Chinese used well known history and everyday things as symbols in their written language to make words easier to remember, ancient man used stories to pass down historical events and important knowledge to future generations. Interspersed in these allegorical accounts of history are wisdoms that they deemed important enough to pass down and remember. Such as man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he didn't do wrong. Most people don't even realize this wisdom is in the Torah because they read it critically instead of searching for the wisdom that ancient man knew and found important enough to include in his account of world history.

We have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, we are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. We read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make ourselves feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom. Shame on us.

I don't think so. The Hebrews emerged from the North Coast Canaanites and followed the Canaanite Pantheon.

So you believe that what Moses recorded in the first 11 chapters of Genesis was not common knowledge in his day?

No I don't believe Moses had anything to to with the Genesis. Scholars think that the OT had some 40 authors and was redacted many times. The Hebrews learned the stories the adapted for Genesis during the Babylonian Exile.. They really had no founding narratives or origin stories until they were exposed to the richness of the Babylonian culture.

Then substitue whoever you want instead, the point still stands. What was recorded in the 1st 11 chapters in Genesis was passed down orally from generation to generation for thousands of years before it was written down.

How else do you think they passed down knowledge, information, history, wisdom, etc.?

The Hebrews borrowed the myths and poetry and foundation narratives from successful, older civilizations around them.

So they all shared a common culture prior to the great migration captured in the account of the Tower of Babel. You are actually proving my point.

The Tower of Babel is about the collapse of a civilization.. There are ziggurats all over the ME. The great migration probably occurred with the slow rising Black Sea breech. That seems to be the time of the rapid spread of organized agriculture.

The Flood story is just an adaptation of the Sumerian story about a flood in the Euphrates River Basin.

The stories are valuable as morality tales, but they aren't history.

Wrong. It is an allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. The original meaning of the allegorical accounts of the first 11 chapters of Genesis has been lost through time.

What great migration out of Mesopotamia? They were Aryans.. probably from India. The Natufians of Palestine and the Levant date to 14,000 years ago. They have found stone granaries in Jordan that are that old.

The one captured in the account of the Tower of Babel. Did you even read that account?

So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth

The floods didn't happen at the same time. You are still taking the OT literally.

Roughly the same time all around the planet. They even probably lasted weeks or months. Vaporizing 1500 gigatons of ice will do that.

I am telling you that something happened extraordinary that was noteworthy and memorable. So much so that stories were told and passed down for generations in an allegorical fashion. That's not the same thing as me reading the account of the flood literally.

There have been asteroid strikes but they were NOT at the same time or even near each other in time. Aesop's Fables were written by a Greek slave about the same time as the OT.

There are two craters in Greenland. They think they occurred ~12,000 years ago. This was during the time of humans and this event could have been the source for the flood accounts that ever major ancient civilization recorded. We do not know from those accounts when the floods occurred. All we can know is that those accounts were most likely passed down orally as was the case for all information that was passed down in ancient times.

Noah's flood was a real 4 day flood of the Euphrates River Basin in 2900 BC.. It did leave a flood footprint 150 miles wide and 350 miles south to the Persian Gulf.

So doesn't that violate the free will that was supposedly given to man by his creator?

Absolutely as the script is quite clear. I don't know where that free will thing came into play as A & E were given commands to follow and punishments if they did not do as told to do, and commands seem to screw up free will quite well.

Satan or the talking serpent were there to insure that Adam sinned so that Christians could later sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

Christians do not know if sin is evil or not, given that it is necessary to god's plan.

This must be true as Christians always run from such discussions.

Regards
DL

But if Adam had no free will then he couldn't have disobeyed. If as you say it was the creator who decided what Adam would believe then the creator must have decided Adam would believe Eve and commit a sin.

You can't say there is no free will then blame someone else besides the creator for the sins of his creations.

Why are you reading these accounts literally?

You read the bible literally do you not?

If so, Jesus cannot be a literally real person to you.

Regards
DL

No. Not the allegorical accounts anyway.

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not really write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Approximately 800 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 800 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

So if we start from the belief that the first eleven chapters of the Torah are an allegorical account of world history before the great migration from Mesopotamia - which was an actual historical event - then the first eleven chapters of the Torah takes on new meaning. Seen in this light these accounts should be viewed less like fairy tales and more like how important information was passed down in ancient times. Just as the Chinese used well known history and everyday things as symbols in their written language to make words easier to remember, ancient man used stories to pass down historical events and important knowledge to future generations. Interspersed in these allegorical accounts of history are wisdoms that they deemed important enough to pass down and remember. Such as man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he didn't do wrong. Most people don't even realize this wisdom is in the Torah because they read it critically instead of searching for the wisdom that ancient man knew and found important enough to include in his account of world history.

We have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, we are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. We read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make ourselves feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom. Shame on us.

I don't think so. The Hebrews emerged from the North Coast Canaanites and followed the Canaanite Pantheon.

So you believe that what Moses recorded in the first 11 chapters of Genesis was not common knowledge in his day?

No I don't believe Moses had anything to to with the Genesis. Scholars think that the OT had some 40 authors and was redacted many times. The Hebrews learned the stories the adapted for Genesis during the Babylonian Exile.. They really had no founding narratives or origin stories until they were exposed to the richness of the Babylonian culture.

Then substitue whoever you want instead, the point still stands. What was recorded in the 1st 11 chapters in Genesis was passed down orally from generation to generation for thousands of years before it was written down.

How else do you think they passed down knowledge, information, history, wisdom, etc.?

The Hebrews borrowed the myths and poetry and foundation narratives from successful, older civilizations around them.

So they all shared a common culture prior to the great migration captured in the account of the Tower of Babel. You are actually proving my point.

The Tower of Babel is about the collapse of a civilization.. There are ziggurats all over the ME. The great migration probably occurred with the slow rising Black Sea breech. That seems to be the time of the rapid spread of organized agriculture.

The Flood story is just an adaptation of the Sumerian story about a flood in the Euphrates River Basin.

The stories are valuable as morality tales, but they aren't history.

Wrong. It is an allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. The original meaning of the allegorical accounts of the first 11 chapters of Genesis has been lost through time.

What great migration out of Mesopotamia? They were Aryans.. probably from India. The Natufians of Palestine and the Levant date to 14,000 years ago. They have found stone granaries in Jordan that are that old.

The one captured in the account of the Tower of Babel. Did you even read that account?

So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth

The floods didn't happen at the same time. You are still taking the OT literally.

Roughly the same time all around the planet. They even probably lasted weeks or months. Vaporizing 1500 gigatons of ice will do that.

I am telling you that something happened extraordinary that was noteworthy and memorable. So much so that stories were told and passed down for generations in an allegorical fashion. That's not the same thing as me reading the account of the flood literally.

The glaciers retreated quite slowly over 10,000 years ago. Until then Arabia was a savanna with wadis and shallow lakes.

There just wasn't any world wide flood. The Myth is Gilgmesh .. The gods were unhappy with the humans because they were too noisy....

You probably believe in man made global warming too, right?

To a certain extent, yes. Alexander the Great pulled down the Tower of Babel. Its a man made story.

The timelines don't match up.

These are ancient accounts.

Again... The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not really write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Approximately 800 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 800 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

Its a man made story.. Cyrus the Great tore down the staircase to the Ziggurat and Alexander the Great pulled the rest of it down.

That was recorded 4500 years ago as symbols in the Chinese written language and passed down orally from generation to generation before that.

Great Flood (China) - Wikipedia

Great Flood (China) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Great Flood of Gun-Yu (Chinese: 鯀禹治水), also known as the Gun-Yu myth, was a major flood event in ancient China that allegedly continued for at least two generations, which resulted in great population displacements among other disasters, such as storms and famine. People left their homes to live on the high hills and mounts, or nest on the trees. According to mythological and historical sources, it is traditionally dated to the third millennium BCE, or about 2300-2200 BC, during the reign of Emperor Yao.

4500 years ago the Chinese drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

 

[DudleySmith]

I know of no Christian Church that relegates nonbelievers to second rate status.

You know squat.

Think Armageddon and retract your foolish thinking.

Regards
DL

"Nuh-Uh" is the best you've got?
I know of no Christian Church that relegates nonbelievers to second rate status.

How soon you forget that Christianity grew threw inquisitions and murder because they had no decent moral tenets to convert with.

Regards
DL

Nope. It was to put down the cathar aggression. Learn some history. Inquisitions established the use of trials where none existed before.

Were the Cathars aggressive?

Cathar Beliefs, doctrines, theology and practices

Cathar Beliefs, doctrines, theology and practices

www.cathar.info

Feb 08, 2017 · Cathars were Dualists. That is, they believed in two universal principles, a good God and a bad God, much like the Jehovah and Satan of mainstream Christianity. As Dualists, they belonged to a tradition that was already ancient in the days of Jesus. (The revered Magi in the nativity story were Zoroastrians - Persian Dualists).

they were hedonists, not Gnostics. And they were indeed aggressive. They began murdering Catholics and as a result got a Crusade launched against them, deservedly so. The later Protestant propaganda portraying then as poor hapless innocents is a giant load of rubbish, as is most Protestant propaganda re Catholics. Most of the deaths of Cathars were at the hands of enraged mobs of locals, who knew them a lot better than the waves of apologists who came along hundreds of years later and pulled a lot of garbage out of their asses.

I thought the problem was that the Cathars were prosperous.

The apologists calim otherwise; they claim they rejected wealth n stuff like good Christians allegedly should, as opposed to the Evul Greedy Catholics. They were essentially Satanists for the most part.

I don't think the Cathars were Satanists.. They worshipped the Good God..

They were also in Southern France and Northern Spain.. Probably too far north to have problems with the Muslims.

You would be wrong; they had the weird idea that they were already saved, and since the Earth was evil they could do anything they want and still be saved, so they did; they lied, cheated people, engaged in sexual deviancy, and murdered people. Of course the sexual deviancy part is what appeals to most Xian haters today, since that is the primary reason they need to rewrite the theology and philosophy, same as Cathars did then.

And, your links merely proves the Spain region was indeed Christian before the Muslim/Jewish atrocities, and Catholic to boot, and was so by choice, and the Visigoths had to adapt, so we're still waiting on what point that was supposed to make. We know that the Cathars were mostly burned by their outraged neighbors, not rampaging Catholic priests.

I don't think there is any doubt that the Church wanted to exterminate heretics.

The doubt can be seen in the time before action was taken, so I don't agree.

Pointing out the obvious always ruins their propaganda festivals.

 

[DudleySmith]

You would be wrong; they had the weird idea that they were already saved, and since the Earth was evil they could do anything they want and still be saved, so they did; they lied, cheated people, engaged in sexual deviancy, and murdered people.

Some truth, but mostly garbage and a rewrite of what the inquisitors lied about us to justify their mass murders.

You might try thinking and then you would recognize that a society as you describe could not function.

Your first lie is on our salvation. We did not believe that a good and perfect god would create someone he had to condemn and send to purposeless torture and death in hell.

Christians see a worst ends for man, where only a few end in heaven, while Gnostic Christians see a universalist god with all ending in heaven.

Were you justly condemned? What was you sin?

Regards
DL

lol you're just another deviant crank, and now you've brought your silly lunacy to this board. Did you get banned or laughed out of the Political Forum again?

 

[surada]

So doesn't that violate the free will that was supposedly given to man by his creator?

Absolutely as the script is quite clear. I don't know where that free will thing came into play as A & E were given commands to follow and punishments if they did not do as told to do, and commands seem to screw up free will quite well.

Satan or the talking serpent were there to insure that Adam sinned so that Christians could later sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

Christians do not know if sin is evil or not, given that it is necessary to god's plan.

This must be true as Christians always run from such discussions.

Regards
DL

But if Adam had no free will then he couldn't have disobeyed. If as you say it was the creator who decided what Adam would believe then the creator must have decided Adam would believe Eve and commit a sin.

You can't say there is no free will then blame someone else besides the creator for the sins of his creations.

Why are you reading these accounts literally?

You read the bible literally do you not?

If so, Jesus cannot be a literally real person to you.

Regards
DL

No. Not the allegorical accounts anyway.

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not really write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Approximately 800 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 800 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

So if we start from the belief that the first eleven chapters of the Torah are an allegorical account of world history before the great migration from Mesopotamia - which was an actual historical event - then the first eleven chapters of the Torah takes on new meaning. Seen in this light these accounts should be viewed less like fairy tales and more like how important information was passed down in ancient times. Just as the Chinese used well known history and everyday things as symbols in their written language to make words easier to remember, ancient man used stories to pass down historical events and important knowledge to future generations. Interspersed in these allegorical accounts of history are wisdoms that they deemed important enough to pass down and remember. Such as man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he didn't do wrong. Most people don't even realize this wisdom is in the Torah because they read it critically instead of searching for the wisdom that ancient man knew and found important enough to include in his account of world history.

We have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, we are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. We read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make ourselves feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom. Shame on us.

I don't think so. The Hebrews emerged from the North Coast Canaanites and followed the Canaanite Pantheon.

So you believe that what Moses recorded in the first 11 chapters of Genesis was not common knowledge in his day?

No I don't believe Moses had anything to to with the Genesis. Scholars think that the OT had some 40 authors and was redacted many times. The Hebrews learned the stories the adapted for Genesis during the Babylonian Exile.. They really had no founding narratives or origin stories until they were exposed to the richness of the Babylonian culture.

Then substitue whoever you want instead, the point still stands. What was recorded in the 1st 11 chapters in Genesis was passed down orally from generation to generation for thousands of years before it was written down.

How else do you think they passed down knowledge, information, history, wisdom, etc.?

The Hebrews borrowed the myths and poetry and foundation narratives from successful, older civilizations around them.

So they all shared a common culture prior to the great migration captured in the account of the Tower of Babel. You are actually proving my point.

The Tower of Babel is about the collapse of a civilization.. There are ziggurats all over the ME. The great migration probably occurred with the slow rising Black Sea breech. That seems to be the time of the rapid spread of organized agriculture.

The Flood story is just an adaptation of the Sumerian story about a flood in the Euphrates River Basin.

The stories are valuable as morality tales, but they aren't history.

Wrong. It is an allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. The original meaning of the allegorical accounts of the first 11 chapters of Genesis has been lost through time.

What great migration out of Mesopotamia? They were Aryans.. probably from India. The Natufians of Palestine and the Levant date to 14,000 years ago. They have found stone granaries in Jordan that are that old.

The one captured in the account of the Tower of Babel. Did you even read that account?

So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth

The floods didn't happen at the same time. You are still taking the OT literally.

Roughly the same time all around the planet. They even probably lasted weeks or months. Vaporizing 1500 gigatons of ice will do that.

I am telling you that something happened extraordinary that was noteworthy and memorable. So much so that stories were told and passed down for generations in an allegorical fashion. That's not the same thing as me reading the account of the flood literally.

There have been asteroid strikes but they were NOT at the same time or even near each other in time. Aesop's Fables were written by a Greek slave about the same time as the OT.

There are two craters in Greenland. They think they occurred ~12,000 years ago. This was during the time of humans and this event could have been the source for the flood accounts that ever major ancient civilization recorded. We do not know from those accounts when the floods occurred. All we can know is that those accounts were most likely passed down orally as was the case for all information that was passed down in ancient times.

Noah's flood was a real 4 day flood of the Euphrates River Basin in 2900 BC.. It did leave a flood footprint 150 miles wide and 350 miles south to the Persian Gulf.

So doesn't that violate the free will that was supposedly given to man by his creator?

Absolutely as the script is quite clear. I don't know where that free will thing came into play as A & E were given commands to follow and punishments if they did not do as told to do, and commands seem to screw up free will quite well.

Satan or the talking serpent were there to insure that Adam sinned so that Christians could later sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

Christians do not know if sin is evil or not, given that it is necessary to god's plan.

This must be true as Christians always run from such discussions.

Regards
DL

But if Adam had no free will then he couldn't have disobeyed. If as you say it was the creator who decided what Adam would believe then the creator must have decided Adam would believe Eve and commit a sin.

You can't say there is no free will then blame someone else besides the creator for the sins of his creations.

Why are you reading these accounts literally?

You read the bible literally do you not?

If so, Jesus cannot be a literally real person to you.

Regards
DL

No. Not the allegorical accounts anyway.

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not really write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Approximately 800 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 800 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

So if we start from the belief that the first eleven chapters of the Torah are an allegorical account of world history before the great migration from Mesopotamia - which was an actual historical event - then the first eleven chapters of the Torah takes on new meaning. Seen in this light these accounts should be viewed less like fairy tales and more like how important information was passed down in ancient times. Just as the Chinese used well known history and everyday things as symbols in their written language to make words easier to remember, ancient man used stories to pass down historical events and important knowledge to future generations. Interspersed in these allegorical accounts of history are wisdoms that they deemed important enough to pass down and remember. Such as man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he didn't do wrong. Most people don't even realize this wisdom is in the Torah because they read it critically instead of searching for the wisdom that ancient man knew and found important enough to include in his account of world history.

We have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, we are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. We read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make ourselves feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom. Shame on us.

I don't think so. The Hebrews emerged from the North Coast Canaanites and followed the Canaanite Pantheon.

So you believe that what Moses recorded in the first 11 chapters of Genesis was not common knowledge in his day?

No I don't believe Moses had anything to to with the Genesis. Scholars think that the OT had some 40 authors and was redacted many times. The Hebrews learned the stories the adapted for Genesis during the Babylonian Exile.. They really had no founding narratives or origin stories until they were exposed to the richness of the Babylonian culture.

Then substitue whoever you want instead, the point still stands. What was recorded in the 1st 11 chapters in Genesis was passed down orally from generation to generation for thousands of years before it was written down.

How else do you think they passed down knowledge, information, history, wisdom, etc.?

The Hebrews borrowed the myths and poetry and foundation narratives from successful, older civilizations around them.

So they all shared a common culture prior to the great migration captured in the account of the Tower of Babel. You are actually proving my point.

The Tower of Babel is about the collapse of a civilization.. There are ziggurats all over the ME. The great migration probably occurred with the slow rising Black Sea breech. That seems to be the time of the rapid spread of organized agriculture.

The Flood story is just an adaptation of the Sumerian story about a flood in the Euphrates River Basin.

The stories are valuable as morality tales, but they aren't history.

Wrong. It is an allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. The original meaning of the allegorical accounts of the first 11 chapters of Genesis has been lost through time.

What great migration out of Mesopotamia? They were Aryans.. probably from India. The Natufians of Palestine and the Levant date to 14,000 years ago. They have found stone granaries in Jordan that are that old.

The one captured in the account of the Tower of Babel. Did you even read that account?

So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth

The floods didn't happen at the same time. You are still taking the OT literally.

Roughly the same time all around the planet. They even probably lasted weeks or months. Vaporizing 1500 gigatons of ice will do that.

I am telling you that something happened extraordinary that was noteworthy and memorable. So much so that stories were told and passed down for generations in an allegorical fashion. That's not the same thing as me reading the account of the flood literally.

The glaciers retreated quite slowly over 10,000 years ago. Until then Arabia was a savanna with wadis and shallow lakes.

There just wasn't any world wide flood. The Myth is Gilgmesh .. The gods were unhappy with the humans because they were too noisy....

You probably believe in man made global warming too, right?

To a certain extent, yes. Alexander the Great pulled down the Tower of Babel. Its a man made story.

The timelines don't match up.

These are ancient accounts.

Again... The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not really write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Approximately 800 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 800 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

Its a man made story.. Cyrus the Great tore down the staircase to the Ziggurat and Alexander the Great pulled the rest of it down.

That was recorded 4500 years ago as symbols in the Chinese written language and passed down orally from generation to generation before that.

Great Flood (China) - Wikipedia

Great Flood (China) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Great Flood of Gun-Yu (Chinese: 鯀禹治水), also known as the Gun-Yu myth, was a major flood event in ancient China that allegedly continued for at least two generations, which resulted in great population displacements among other disasters, such as storms and famine. People left their homes to live on the high hills and mounts, or nest on the trees. According to mythological and historical sources, it is traditionally dated to the third millennium BCE, or about 2300-2200 BC, during the reign of Emperor Yao.

View attachment 466238
View attachment 466241

4500 years ago the Chinese drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

Yao | Chinese mythological emperor | Britannica

Yao | Emperor, Sage & Ancestor

Yao, in Chinese mythology, a legendary emperor (c. 24th century bce) of the golden age of antiquity, exalted by Confucius as an inspiration and perennial model of virtue, righteousness, and unselfish devotion. His name is inseparable from that of his successor Shun, to whom he gave his two

www.britannica.com

Yao, formally Tangdi Yao, in Chinese mythology, a legendary emperor (c. 24th century bce) of the golden age of antiquity, exalted by Confucius as an inspiration and perennial model of virtue, righteousness, and unselfish devotion. His name is inseparable from that of his successor Shun, to whom he gave his two daughters in marriage.

 

[DudleySmith]

What were some religions of Spain before Christianity? Anything more specific than "Paganism?"

Answer (1 of 4): Very little is known. Long story short: The Atlantic coast practiced celtic paganism, the mediterranean coast had similar rituals than archaic Greece and Persia, the center combined both. Long story: One thing that seemed to be prevalent throughout Spain (Hispania, technically) ...

www.quora.com

Long story short: The Atlantic coast practiced celtic paganism, the mediterranean coast had similar rituals than archaic Greece and Persia, the center combined both.

Long story:
One thing that seemed to be prevalent throughout Spain (Hispania, technically) was solar worship and the notion of cyclic time.

The Celts from the north worshipped the Celtic pantheon with some variations. Lugh seems to have been a big deal for them, along with various fertility deities associated to caves and rivers. There are some proofs of the three-deaths-rituals as well as of human sacrifice.

Both Celts and Celtiberians seemed to have some sort of cults involving blood sacrifices of both humans and animals (the human sacrifice does not involve necesarely killing the person but just make them bleed) There are ceremonial altars left with channels for the blood, and until the XVII centiry many of the rituals pervived, unconvincingly disguised as celebrations of Christ’s passions (on the same rocks people would shelf lash or ask others to lash them) Some of the most low key celebrations involving activities (such a splaying drums)until people bleed are still around.

lol so what? I guess in your mind this means Muslims get to rampage and loot or something? Is that it?

There you did it.. You made the leap to assuming something I NEVER said.

You don't have to; your intent is clear: Da Evul Xians don't have any right to defend themselves, especially from the wonderful kind Muslims who only wanted to spread 'Golden Ages' around n stuff.

You're obnoxious.

And you're a liar and lousy at propaganda, incapable of posting anything negative about your terrorist Islam cult.

 

[ding]

So doesn't that violate the free will that was supposedly given to man by his creator?

Absolutely as the script is quite clear. I don't know where that free will thing came into play as A & E were given commands to follow and punishments if they did not do as told to do, and commands seem to screw up free will quite well.

Satan or the talking serpent were there to insure that Adam sinned so that Christians could later sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

Christians do not know if sin is evil or not, given that it is necessary to god's plan.

This must be true as Christians always run from such discussions.

Regards
DL

But if Adam had no free will then he couldn't have disobeyed. If as you say it was the creator who decided what Adam would believe then the creator must have decided Adam would believe Eve and commit a sin.

You can't say there is no free will then blame someone else besides the creator for the sins of his creations.

Why are you reading these accounts literally?

You read the bible literally do you not?

If so, Jesus cannot be a literally real person to you.

Regards
DL

No. Not the allegorical accounts anyway.

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not really write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Approximately 800 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 800 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

So if we start from the belief that the first eleven chapters of the Torah are an allegorical account of world history before the great migration from Mesopotamia - which was an actual historical event - then the first eleven chapters of the Torah takes on new meaning. Seen in this light these accounts should be viewed less like fairy tales and more like how important information was passed down in ancient times. Just as the Chinese used well known history and everyday things as symbols in their written language to make words easier to remember, ancient man used stories to pass down historical events and important knowledge to future generations. Interspersed in these allegorical accounts of history are wisdoms that they deemed important enough to pass down and remember. Such as man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he didn't do wrong. Most people don't even realize this wisdom is in the Torah because they read it critically instead of searching for the wisdom that ancient man knew and found important enough to include in his account of world history.

We have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, we are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. We read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make ourselves feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom. Shame on us.

I don't think so. The Hebrews emerged from the North Coast Canaanites and followed the Canaanite Pantheon.

So you believe that what Moses recorded in the first 11 chapters of Genesis was not common knowledge in his day?

No I don't believe Moses had anything to to with the Genesis. Scholars think that the OT had some 40 authors and was redacted many times. The Hebrews learned the stories the adapted for Genesis during the Babylonian Exile.. They really had no founding narratives or origin stories until they were exposed to the richness of the Babylonian culture.

Then substitue whoever you want instead, the point still stands. What was recorded in the 1st 11 chapters in Genesis was passed down orally from generation to generation for thousands of years before it was written down.

How else do you think they passed down knowledge, information, history, wisdom, etc.?

The Hebrews borrowed the myths and poetry and foundation narratives from successful, older civilizations around them.

So they all shared a common culture prior to the great migration captured in the account of the Tower of Babel. You are actually proving my point.

The Tower of Babel is about the collapse of a civilization.. There are ziggurats all over the ME. The great migration probably occurred with the slow rising Black Sea breech. That seems to be the time of the rapid spread of organized agriculture.

The Flood story is just an adaptation of the Sumerian story about a flood in the Euphrates River Basin.

The stories are valuable as morality tales, but they aren't history.

Wrong. It is an allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. The original meaning of the allegorical accounts of the first 11 chapters of Genesis has been lost through time.

What great migration out of Mesopotamia? They were Aryans.. probably from India. The Natufians of Palestine and the Levant date to 14,000 years ago. They have found stone granaries in Jordan that are that old.

The one captured in the account of the Tower of Babel. Did you even read that account?

So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth

The floods didn't happen at the same time. You are still taking the OT literally.

Roughly the same time all around the planet. They even probably lasted weeks or months. Vaporizing 1500 gigatons of ice will do that.

I am telling you that something happened extraordinary that was noteworthy and memorable. So much so that stories were told and passed down for generations in an allegorical fashion. That's not the same thing as me reading the account of the flood literally.

There have been asteroid strikes but they were NOT at the same time or even near each other in time. Aesop's Fables were written by a Greek slave about the same time as the OT.

There are two craters in Greenland. They think they occurred ~12,000 years ago. This was during the time of humans and this event could have been the source for the flood accounts that ever major ancient civilization recorded. We do not know from those accounts when the floods occurred. All we can know is that those accounts were most likely passed down orally as was the case for all information that was passed down in ancient times.

Noah's flood was a real 4 day flood of the Euphrates River Basin in 2900 BC.. It did leave a flood footprint 150 miles wide and 350 miles south to the Persian Gulf.

So doesn't that violate the free will that was supposedly given to man by his creator?

Absolutely as the script is quite clear. I don't know where that free will thing came into play as A & E were given commands to follow and punishments if they did not do as told to do, and commands seem to screw up free will quite well.

Satan or the talking serpent were there to insure that Adam sinned so that Christians could later sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

Christians do not know if sin is evil or not, given that it is necessary to god's plan.

This must be true as Christians always run from such discussions.

Regards
DL

But if Adam had no free will then he couldn't have disobeyed. If as you say it was the creator who decided what Adam would believe then the creator must have decided Adam would believe Eve and commit a sin.

You can't say there is no free will then blame someone else besides the creator for the sins of his creations.

Why are you reading these accounts literally?

You read the bible literally do you not?

If so, Jesus cannot be a literally real person to you.

Regards
DL

No. Not the allegorical accounts anyway.

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not really write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Approximately 800 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 800 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

So if we start from the belief that the first eleven chapters of the Torah are an allegorical account of world history before the great migration from Mesopotamia - which was an actual historical event - then the first eleven chapters of the Torah takes on new meaning. Seen in this light these accounts should be viewed less like fairy tales and more like how important information was passed down in ancient times. Just as the Chinese used well known history and everyday things as symbols in their written language to make words easier to remember, ancient man used stories to pass down historical events and important knowledge to future generations. Interspersed in these allegorical accounts of history are wisdoms that they deemed important enough to pass down and remember. Such as man knows right from wrong and when he violates it, rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he didn't do wrong. Most people don't even realize this wisdom is in the Torah because they read it critically instead of searching for the wisdom that ancient man knew and found important enough to include in his account of world history.

We have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, we are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. We read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make ourselves feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom. Shame on us.

I don't think so. The Hebrews emerged from the North Coast Canaanites and followed the Canaanite Pantheon.

So you believe that what Moses recorded in the first 11 chapters of Genesis was not common knowledge in his day?

No I don't believe Moses had anything to to with the Genesis. Scholars think that the OT had some 40 authors and was redacted many times. The Hebrews learned the stories the adapted for Genesis during the Babylonian Exile.. They really had no founding narratives or origin stories until they were exposed to the richness of the Babylonian culture.

Then substitue whoever you want instead, the point still stands. What was recorded in the 1st 11 chapters in Genesis was passed down orally from generation to generation for thousands of years before it was written down.

How else do you think they passed down knowledge, information, history, wisdom, etc.?

The Hebrews borrowed the myths and poetry and foundation narratives from successful, older civilizations around them.

So they all shared a common culture prior to the great migration captured in the account of the Tower of Babel. You are actually proving my point.

The Tower of Babel is about the collapse of a civilization.. There are ziggurats all over the ME. The great migration probably occurred with the slow rising Black Sea breech. That seems to be the time of the rapid spread of organized agriculture.

The Flood story is just an adaptation of the Sumerian story about a flood in the Euphrates River Basin.

The stories are valuable as morality tales, but they aren't history.

Wrong. It is an allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. The original meaning of the allegorical accounts of the first 11 chapters of Genesis has been lost through time.

What great migration out of Mesopotamia? They were Aryans.. probably from India. The Natufians of Palestine and the Levant date to 14,000 years ago. They have found stone granaries in Jordan that are that old.

The one captured in the account of the Tower of Babel. Did you even read that account?

So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of the whole earth

The floods didn't happen at the same time. You are still taking the OT literally.

Roughly the same time all around the planet. They even probably lasted weeks or months. Vaporizing 1500 gigatons of ice will do that.

I am telling you that something happened extraordinary that was noteworthy and memorable. So much so that stories were told and passed down for generations in an allegorical fashion. That's not the same thing as me reading the account of the flood literally.

The glaciers retreated quite slowly over 10,000 years ago. Until then Arabia was a savanna with wadis and shallow lakes.

There just wasn't any world wide flood. The Myth is Gilgmesh .. The gods were unhappy with the humans because they were too noisy....

You probably believe in man made global warming too, right?

To a certain extent, yes. Alexander the Great pulled down the Tower of Babel. Its a man made story.

The timelines don't match up.

These are ancient accounts.

Again... The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not really write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

Approximately 800 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 800 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

Its a man made story.. Cyrus the Great tore down the staircase to the Ziggurat and Alexander the Great pulled the rest of it down.

That was recorded 4500 years ago as symbols in the Chinese written language and passed down orally from generation to generation before that.

Great Flood (China) - Wikipedia

Great Flood (China) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Great Flood of Gun-Yu (Chinese: 鯀禹治水), also known as the Gun-Yu myth, was a major flood event in ancient China that allegedly continued for at least two generations, which resulted in great population displacements among other disasters, such as storms and famine. People left their homes to live on the high hills and mounts, or nest on the trees. According to mythological and historical sources, it is traditionally dated to the third millennium BCE, or about 2300-2200 BC, during the reign of Emperor Yao.

View attachment 466238
View attachment 466241

4500 years ago the Chinese drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

Yao | Chinese mythological emperor | Britannica

Yao | Emperor, Sage & Ancestor

Yao, in Chinese mythology, a legendary emperor (c. 24th century bce) of the golden age of antiquity, exalted by Confucius as an inspiration and perennial model of virtue, righteousness, and unselfish devotion. His name is inseparable from that of his successor Shun, to whom he gave his two

www.britannica.com

Yao, formally Tangdi Yao, in Chinese mythology, a legendary emperor (c. 24th century bce) of the golden age of antiquity, exalted by Confucius as an inspiration and perennial model of virtue, righteousness, and unselfish devotion. His name is inseparable from that of his successor Shun, to whom he gave his two daughters in marriage.

 

[Taz]

Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?

Depends on the country and where it's located. ...

"religions that preach inequality for women and gays" are all found in muslim countries, aren't they skinhead?

Just look at what your vile lying preachers are preaching.

Are they any different from the right wing Muslims?

No. To an honest observer.

Regards
DL

I'm an agnostic, I don't follow pedophiles spouting garbage. Like you do.

You misspelled militant atheist, taz.

I see that you haven't stopped being jealous of my position and that it still burns you up. Good.

If you need to see it that way, Taz, be my guest. But you are defined by your actions, not your perception of yourself.

It's my perception of the universe, not myself.

If that were the case then you could explain your perception of the universe and explain why there is no God just as I have done showing that logically God must exist as the first cause.

See?

Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?

Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country? Depends on the country and where it's located. ... :cool: "religions that preach inequality for women and gays" are all found in muslim countries, aren't they skinhead? Women in Islam had more rights than...

www.usmessageboard.com

You're not logical. Nothing you say is. Ever.

Prove it using logic, taz. Show me the flaw in my logic.

You think that the universe popped out of nothing. That's not logical.

Spontaneous creation of the Universe Ex Nihilo

Questions regarding the formation of the Universe and ‘what was there’ before it came to existence have been of great interest to mankind at all times…

www.sciencedirect.com

[1404.1207] Spontaneous creation of the universe from nothing

It’s only his opinion, we’ve gone over this before.

 

[ding]

Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?

Depends on the country and where it's located. ...

"religions that preach inequality for women and gays" are all found in muslim countries, aren't they skinhead?

Just look at what your vile lying preachers are preaching.

Are they any different from the right wing Muslims?

No. To an honest observer.

Regards
DL

I'm an agnostic, I don't follow pedophiles spouting garbage. Like you do.

You misspelled militant atheist, taz.

I see that you haven't stopped being jealous of my position and that it still burns you up. Good.

If you need to see it that way, Taz, be my guest. But you are defined by your actions, not your perception of yourself.

It's my perception of the universe, not myself.

If that were the case then you could explain your perception of the universe and explain why there is no God just as I have done showing that logically God must exist as the first cause.

See?

Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?

Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country? Depends on the country and where it's located. ... :cool: "religions that preach inequality for women and gays" are all found in muslim countries, aren't they skinhead? Women in Islam had more rights than...

www.usmessageboard.com

You're not logical. Nothing you say is. Ever.

Prove it using logic, taz. Show me the flaw in my logic.

You think that the universe popped out of nothing. That's not logical.

Spontaneous creation of the Universe Ex Nihilo

Questions regarding the formation of the Universe and ‘what was there’ before it came to existence have been of great interest to mankind at all times…

www.sciencedirect.com

[1404.1207] Spontaneous creation of the universe from nothing

It’s only his opinion, we’ve gone over this before.

The links say otherwise, dummy.

 

[Blues Man]

Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?

Our first allegiance is to our countries.

Our laws and political leanings are moving us towards laïcité, a rather rigid form of the best religious freedoms/ideology, quirky or not, for all. Keep it to yourself will be the order of the day. Happy days. All within a Western style of freedom seeking governance.

Should our backwards thinking mainstream religions be asked to be more representative of good law?

Negative discrimination without a just cause is what Yahweh admits to doing in Job 2;3., when he allowed Satan to move him to sin against Job.

Christians should admit their sin and stop preaching that it is a good to be homophobic and misogynous, contradicting the law of the land.

Regards
DL

Our first allegiance is to ourselves then our families. the country is a bit further down on the list for me

There are logical reasons the sequence is God, country and family.

I don't think a belief is gods is logical.

That's because you don't have a perception of God beyond magical fairytales, bro. So of course you don't believe belief in God is logical. I wouldn't believe in God either if I had your perception of God.

Interesting,

Do I have to believe before my perception changes or do I believe after I see something that changes my perception?

I think you have to have an open mind and objectively look at all sides before arriving at objective truth on any issue.

I do have an open mind.

I just like to have some sort of empirical evidence. There have been many times I have changed my opinion when I was presented with sufficient evidence that contradicted my original stance on a subject.

The universe and everything that has transpired since it was created from nothing being hardwired to produce intelligence is the evidence.

Not really.

The absence of scientific evidence is not in itself proof of a god being the creator of the universe.

It is just as possible that we do not yet have the technology or the mental capacity to see or understand the process of the inception of the universe.

There's no absence of evidence.

At the heart of this debate is whether or not the material world was created by spirit. If the material world were not created by spirit, then everything which has occurred since the beginning of space and time are products of the material world. Everything which is incorporeal proceeded from the corporeal. There is no middle ground. There is no other option. Either the material world was created by spirit or it wasn't. All other options will simplify to one of these two lowest common denominators which are mutually exclusive.

So we need to start from that position and examine the evidence we have at our disposal which is creation itself. Specifically, the laws of nature; physical, biological and moral. And how space and time has evolved. And how we perceive God. If we perceive God to be some magical fairy tale then everything we see will skew to that result. There won't be one single thing that we will agree with or accept.

There is no thing that can describe God because God is no thing. God is not matter and energy like us and God exists outside of our four dimension space time. In fact the premise is that God is no thing. That God is a spirit. A spirit is no thing. Being things we can't possibly relate to being no things. A two dimensional being would have an easier time trying to understand our third dimension than we - a four dimensional being - would in trying to understand a multi-dimensional being outside of our space time. The closest I can come to and later confirm with the physical laws is that God is consciousness. That Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.

So now that a realistic perception of God has been established we need to examine the only evidence at our disposal. It should be obvious that if the material world were not created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have no intentional purpose. That it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. Conversely, if the material world were created by spirit it should be obvious that the creation of the material world was intentional. After all in my perception of God, God is no thing and the closest thing I can relate to is a mind with no body. Using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.

We have good reason to believe that we find ourselves in a universe permeated with life, in which life arises inevitably, given enough time, wherever the conditions exist that make it possible. Yet were any one of a number of the physical properties of our universe otherwise - some of them basic, others seemingly trivial, almost accidental - that life, which seems now to be so prevalent, would become impossible, here or anywhere. It takes no great imagination to conceive of other possible universes, each stable and workable in itself, yet lifeless. How is it that, with so many other apparent options, we are in a universe that possesses just that peculiar nexus of properties that breeds beings that know and create.

The biological laws are such that life is programmed to survive and multiply which is a requisite for intelligence to arise. If the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence then a preference in nature for it had to exist. The Laws of Nature are such that the potential for intelligence to existed the moment space and time were created. One can argue that given the laws of nature and the size of the universe that intelligence arising was inevitable. One can also argue that creating intelligence from nothing defies the Second Law of Entropy. That creating intelligence from nothing increases order within the universe. It actually doesn't because usable energy was lost along the way as a cost of creating order from disorder. But it is nature overriding it's tendency for ever increasing disorder that interests me and raises my suspicions to look deeper and to take seriously the proposition that a mind without a body created the material world so that minds with bodies could create too.

If we examine the physical laws we discover that we live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

All we have done so far is to make a logical argument for spirit creating the material world. Certainly not an argument built of fairy tales that's for sure. So going back to the two possibilities; spirit creating the material world versus everything proceeding from the material, the key distinction is no thing versus thing. So if we assume that everything I have described was just an accidental coincidence of the properties of matter, the logical conclusion is that matter and energy are just doing what matter and energy do which makes sense. The problem is that for matter and energy to do what matter and energy do, there has to be rules in place for matter and energy to obey. The formation of space and time followed rules. Specifically the law of conservation and quantum mechanics. These laws existed before space and time and defined the potential of everything which was possible. These laws are no thing. So we literally have an example of no thing existing before the material world. The creation of space and time from nothing is literally correct. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing. No thing created space and time.

If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it.

Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.

Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.

If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

And how do you know the evidence we have regarding the inception of the universe is all the evidence there is?

And now you're bringing the spiritual into this? And we've already been over the morality and ethics argument and we do not agree so I see no need to rehash that one.

We know from science that space and time had a beginning. Specifically, red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations, quantum mechanics, the First Law of Thermodynamics, the Second Law of Thermodynamics and Inflation Theory.

Red shift, cosmic background radiation and Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations tells us that all matter and energy in the universe once occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of an atom and then began to expand and cool. The the First Law of Thermodynamics (i.e. conservation of energy) tells us that since that time matter and energy has only changed form. Which means that the atoms in our bodies were created from nothing when space and and time were created from nothing.

Red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations and the Second Law of Thermodynamics tells us that space and time did have a beginning. If the universe is expanding then it must have a beginning. If you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. You cannot continue that history indefinitely. This is still true even if a universe has periods of contraction. It still has to have a beginning if expansion over weights the contraction. Physicists have been uncomfortable with the idea of a beginning since the work of Friedman which showed that the solutions of Einstein's equation showed that the universe had a beginning. The problem with a cyclical universe is with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. For every matter to energy or energy to matter exchange there is a loss of usable energy. So while the total energy of the universe does not decrease, the usable energy of the universe does decrease. If it is a periodic or cyclical universe then the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same. Entropy can never decrease. Which means that in a finite amount of time, a finite system will reach a maximum state of disorder which is called thermal equilibrium and then it will stay in that state. A cyclical universe cannot avoid this problem. Since we do not see thermal equilibrium (good thing too because there would be no life) we know that the universe did have a beginning.

Inflation Theory, the First Law of Thermodynamics and quantum mechanics tells us that it is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

But we don't know what happened the nanosecond before the beginning so all we know is the effect of the cause but not the cause itself.

You want to say the cause is a god. I am saying that we do not have enough information to say what caused the creation of the universe and the only thing we can see and measure are the aftereffects of the inception of the universe.

If we do not know what happened before the inflationary event we call the big bang we do not know the cause.

I am saying that the first cause cannot be matter or energy, so what is left?

We don't know.

You are assuming it was some otherworldly being.

I am not making that assumption because I have no evidence of the existence of any otherworldly beings.

Is it an assumption that the nature of intelligence is to create intelligence?

of course.

We think ourselves intelligent beings but have we created intelligence?

You like to attach characteristics to the universe because you have assigned a purpose to the universe. I don't assume the universe has a purpose.

We made smart phones. We made automation. We made PLC logic. We made AI.

I don't believe anyone would argue that we are obsessed with making smart things. Except maybe you.

Of course the universe has a purpose. It is an intelligence creating machine. You can only tell what something purpose is by its finished product. That would be intelligence for the universe. Everything that unfolded was leading to the universe becoming self aware. Despite your objection, you are a product of the universe.

Those are nothing but storage devices.

They are not intelligent in and of themselves but rather run on a set of rules and algorithms that humans have devised.

And I never said I wasn't a product of the universe.

I can be a product of a universe that has no purpose.

Right, but they simulate intelligence because man is obsessed with making smart things. Thus proving it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.

You could be a product of a universe that has no purpose but that would be an astronomically incredible series of coincidences. It is much more likely that intelligence hardwired into the laws of nature for intelligence to exist than it is an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do because matter and energy follow laws of nature which in and of themselves are no things and had to exist before space and time because space and time were created according to the laws of nature.

We have not created intelligence. A smart phone isn't smart in and of itself. it can't do anything other than what we have told it to do.

And considering the size and age of the universe it is not unreasonable to think that we very well may be the results of trillions upon trillions upon trillions of random events over billions of years.

I'm not going to argue with you about this. If you don't want to believe that it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence, then don't.

As for random events... I already explained this to you... If we examine the physical laws we discover that we live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

You are saying that we created intelligence we haven't.

We have created storage devices that work very quickly and operate on a simple binary code. That is not intelligence but you are claiming it is.

So since you think everything that has ever happened has happened for some purpose tell me what is the purpose of a single collision of 2 individual dust molecules that happened 12 billion years ago.

What part of... "I'm not going to argue with you about this. If you don't want to believe that it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence, then don't" did you not understand. I've made my case.

You take what I wrote out of context. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The reason two individual dust particles collided was because they were on a collision path. So they did not just randomly collide.

You don't understand that no human creation up to this point is an intelligence. but back to your assertion that the universe and therefore everything that has ever happened in the universe has a purpose.

So then is it your contention that those 2 dust molecules were put on a collision course for some reason by some intelligent force or were they merely on that collision course because of an unknown number of other events occurring over an unknown time span? If it was the latter then it was a random event.

And how does that collision have any purpose?

No. That's not what I am saying. Try again.

If the universe has a purpose then surely everything that happens in the universe must work towards that purpose.

Or since we don't know what 95% of the universe is made of or how it interacts with any of the 5% we do know are you just imposing a purpose on the universe?

It does, but not in the way you are describing.

so what is the purpose as you describe it of a collision between 2 dust molecules 12 billion years ago?

 

[ding]

Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?

Our first allegiance is to our countries.

Our laws and political leanings are moving us towards laïcité, a rather rigid form of the best religious freedoms/ideology, quirky or not, for all. Keep it to yourself will be the order of the day. Happy days. All within a Western style of freedom seeking governance.

Should our backwards thinking mainstream religions be asked to be more representative of good law?

Negative discrimination without a just cause is what Yahweh admits to doing in Job 2;3., when he allowed Satan to move him to sin against Job.

Christians should admit their sin and stop preaching that it is a good to be homophobic and misogynous, contradicting the law of the land.

Regards
DL

Our first allegiance is to ourselves then our families. the country is a bit further down on the list for me

There are logical reasons the sequence is God, country and family.

I don't think a belief is gods is logical.

That's because you don't have a perception of God beyond magical fairytales, bro. So of course you don't believe belief in God is logical. I wouldn't believe in God either if I had your perception of God.

Interesting,

Do I have to believe before my perception changes or do I believe after I see something that changes my perception?

I think you have to have an open mind and objectively look at all sides before arriving at objective truth on any issue.

I do have an open mind.

I just like to have some sort of empirical evidence. There have been many times I have changed my opinion when I was presented with sufficient evidence that contradicted my original stance on a subject.

The universe and everything that has transpired since it was created from nothing being hardwired to produce intelligence is the evidence.

Not really.

The absence of scientific evidence is not in itself proof of a god being the creator of the universe.

It is just as possible that we do not yet have the technology or the mental capacity to see or understand the process of the inception of the universe.

There's no absence of evidence.

At the heart of this debate is whether or not the material world was created by spirit. If the material world were not created by spirit, then everything which has occurred since the beginning of space and time are products of the material world. Everything which is incorporeal proceeded from the corporeal. There is no middle ground. There is no other option. Either the material world was created by spirit or it wasn't. All other options will simplify to one of these two lowest common denominators which are mutually exclusive.

So we need to start from that position and examine the evidence we have at our disposal which is creation itself. Specifically, the laws of nature; physical, biological and moral. And how space and time has evolved. And how we perceive God. If we perceive God to be some magical fairy tale then everything we see will skew to that result. There won't be one single thing that we will agree with or accept.

There is no thing that can describe God because God is no thing. God is not matter and energy like us and God exists outside of our four dimension space time. In fact the premise is that God is no thing. That God is a spirit. A spirit is no thing. Being things we can't possibly relate to being no things. A two dimensional being would have an easier time trying to understand our third dimension than we - a four dimensional being - would in trying to understand a multi-dimensional being outside of our space time. The closest I can come to and later confirm with the physical laws is that God is consciousness. That Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.

So now that a realistic perception of God has been established we need to examine the only evidence at our disposal. It should be obvious that if the material world were not created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have no intentional purpose. That it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. Conversely, if the material world were created by spirit it should be obvious that the creation of the material world was intentional. After all in my perception of God, God is no thing and the closest thing I can relate to is a mind with no body. Using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.

We have good reason to believe that we find ourselves in a universe permeated with life, in which life arises inevitably, given enough time, wherever the conditions exist that make it possible. Yet were any one of a number of the physical properties of our universe otherwise - some of them basic, others seemingly trivial, almost accidental - that life, which seems now to be so prevalent, would become impossible, here or anywhere. It takes no great imagination to conceive of other possible universes, each stable and workable in itself, yet lifeless. How is it that, with so many other apparent options, we are in a universe that possesses just that peculiar nexus of properties that breeds beings that know and create.

The biological laws are such that life is programmed to survive and multiply which is a requisite for intelligence to arise. If the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence then a preference in nature for it had to exist. The Laws of Nature are such that the potential for intelligence to existed the moment space and time were created. One can argue that given the laws of nature and the size of the universe that intelligence arising was inevitable. One can also argue that creating intelligence from nothing defies the Second Law of Entropy. That creating intelligence from nothing increases order within the universe. It actually doesn't because usable energy was lost along the way as a cost of creating order from disorder. But it is nature overriding it's tendency for ever increasing disorder that interests me and raises my suspicions to look deeper and to take seriously the proposition that a mind without a body created the material world so that minds with bodies could create too.

If we examine the physical laws we discover that we live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

All we have done so far is to make a logical argument for spirit creating the material world. Certainly not an argument built of fairy tales that's for sure. So going back to the two possibilities; spirit creating the material world versus everything proceeding from the material, the key distinction is no thing versus thing. So if we assume that everything I have described was just an accidental coincidence of the properties of matter, the logical conclusion is that matter and energy are just doing what matter and energy do which makes sense. The problem is that for matter and energy to do what matter and energy do, there has to be rules in place for matter and energy to obey. The formation of space and time followed rules. Specifically the law of conservation and quantum mechanics. These laws existed before space and time and defined the potential of everything which was possible. These laws are no thing. So we literally have an example of no thing existing before the material world. The creation of space and time from nothing is literally correct. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing. No thing created space and time.

If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it.

Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.

Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.

If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

And how do you know the evidence we have regarding the inception of the universe is all the evidence there is?

And now you're bringing the spiritual into this? And we've already been over the morality and ethics argument and we do not agree so I see no need to rehash that one.

We know from science that space and time had a beginning. Specifically, red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations, quantum mechanics, the First Law of Thermodynamics, the Second Law of Thermodynamics and Inflation Theory.

Red shift, cosmic background radiation and Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations tells us that all matter and energy in the universe once occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of an atom and then began to expand and cool. The the First Law of Thermodynamics (i.e. conservation of energy) tells us that since that time matter and energy has only changed form. Which means that the atoms in our bodies were created from nothing when space and and time were created from nothing.

Red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations and the Second Law of Thermodynamics tells us that space and time did have a beginning. If the universe is expanding then it must have a beginning. If you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. You cannot continue that history indefinitely. This is still true even if a universe has periods of contraction. It still has to have a beginning if expansion over weights the contraction. Physicists have been uncomfortable with the idea of a beginning since the work of Friedman which showed that the solutions of Einstein's equation showed that the universe had a beginning. The problem with a cyclical universe is with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. For every matter to energy or energy to matter exchange there is a loss of usable energy. So while the total energy of the universe does not decrease, the usable energy of the universe does decrease. If it is a periodic or cyclical universe then the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same. Entropy can never decrease. Which means that in a finite amount of time, a finite system will reach a maximum state of disorder which is called thermal equilibrium and then it will stay in that state. A cyclical universe cannot avoid this problem. Since we do not see thermal equilibrium (good thing too because there would be no life) we know that the universe did have a beginning.

Inflation Theory, the First Law of Thermodynamics and quantum mechanics tells us that it is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

But we don't know what happened the nanosecond before the beginning so all we know is the effect of the cause but not the cause itself.

You want to say the cause is a god. I am saying that we do not have enough information to say what caused the creation of the universe and the only thing we can see and measure are the aftereffects of the inception of the universe.

If we do not know what happened before the inflationary event we call the big bang we do not know the cause.

I am saying that the first cause cannot be matter or energy, so what is left?

We don't know.

You are assuming it was some otherworldly being.

I am not making that assumption because I have no evidence of the existence of any otherworldly beings.

Is it an assumption that the nature of intelligence is to create intelligence?

of course.

We think ourselves intelligent beings but have we created intelligence?

You like to attach characteristics to the universe because you have assigned a purpose to the universe. I don't assume the universe has a purpose.

We made smart phones. We made automation. We made PLC logic. We made AI.

I don't believe anyone would argue that we are obsessed with making smart things. Except maybe you.

Of course the universe has a purpose. It is an intelligence creating machine. You can only tell what something purpose is by its finished product. That would be intelligence for the universe. Everything that unfolded was leading to the universe becoming self aware. Despite your objection, you are a product of the universe.

Those are nothing but storage devices.

They are not intelligent in and of themselves but rather run on a set of rules and algorithms that humans have devised.

And I never said I wasn't a product of the universe.

I can be a product of a universe that has no purpose.

Right, but they simulate intelligence because man is obsessed with making smart things. Thus proving it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.

You could be a product of a universe that has no purpose but that would be an astronomically incredible series of coincidences. It is much more likely that intelligence hardwired into the laws of nature for intelligence to exist than it is an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do because matter and energy follow laws of nature which in and of themselves are no things and had to exist before space and time because space and time were created according to the laws of nature.

We have not created intelligence. A smart phone isn't smart in and of itself. it can't do anything other than what we have told it to do.

And considering the size and age of the universe it is not unreasonable to think that we very well may be the results of trillions upon trillions upon trillions of random events over billions of years.

I'm not going to argue with you about this. If you don't want to believe that it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence, then don't.

As for random events... I already explained this to you... If we examine the physical laws we discover that we live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

You are saying that we created intelligence we haven't.

We have created storage devices that work very quickly and operate on a simple binary code. That is not intelligence but you are claiming it is.

So since you think everything that has ever happened has happened for some purpose tell me what is the purpose of a single collision of 2 individual dust molecules that happened 12 billion years ago.

What part of... "I'm not going to argue with you about this. If you don't want to believe that it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence, then don't" did you not understand. I've made my case.

You take what I wrote out of context. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The reason two individual dust particles collided was because they were on a collision path. So they did not just randomly collide.

You don't understand that no human creation up to this point is an intelligence. but back to your assertion that the universe and therefore everything that has ever happened in the universe has a purpose.

So then is it your contention that those 2 dust molecules were put on a collision course for some reason by some intelligent force or were they merely on that collision course because of an unknown number of other events occurring over an unknown time span? If it was the latter then it was a random event.

And how does that collision have any purpose?

No. That's not what I am saying. Try again.

If the universe has a purpose then surely everything that happens in the universe must work towards that purpose.

Or since we don't know what 95% of the universe is made of or how it interacts with any of the 5% we do know are you just imposing a purpose on the universe?

It does, but not in the way you are describing.

so what is the purpose as you describe it of a collision between 2 dust molecules 12 billion years ago?

To exist and to evolve.

 

[Taz]

Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?

Depends on the country and where it's located. ...

"religions that preach inequality for women and gays" are all found in muslim countries, aren't they skinhead?

Just look at what your vile lying preachers are preaching.

Are they any different from the right wing Muslims?

No. To an honest observer.

Regards
DL

I'm an agnostic, I don't follow pedophiles spouting garbage. Like you do.

You misspelled militant atheist, taz.

I see that you haven't stopped being jealous of my position and that it still burns you up. Good.

If you need to see it that way, Taz, be my guest. But you are defined by your actions, not your perception of yourself.

It's my perception of the universe, not myself.

If that were the case then you could explain your perception of the universe and explain why there is no God just as I have done showing that logically God must exist as the first cause.

See?

Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?

Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country? Depends on the country and where it's located. ... :cool: "religions that preach inequality for women and gays" are all found in muslim countries, aren't they skinhead? Women in Islam had more rights than...

www.usmessageboard.com

You're not logical. Nothing you say is. Ever.

Prove it using logic, taz. Show me the flaw in my logic.

You think that the universe popped out of nothing. That's not logical.

Spontaneous creation of the Universe Ex Nihilo

Questions regarding the formation of the Universe and ‘what was there’ before it came to existence have been of great interest to mankind at all times…

www.sciencedirect.com

[1404.1207] Spontaneous creation of the universe from nothing

It’s only his opinion, we’ve gone over this before.

The links say otherwise, dummy.

Some guy sitting on a chair talking but not backing his shit up with real proof. Hmmm.... is this guy your hero?

Why Can’t We See the Big Bang? - Universe Today

 

[ding]

Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?

Depends on the country and where it's located. ...

"religions that preach inequality for women and gays" are all found in muslim countries, aren't they skinhead?

Just look at what your vile lying preachers are preaching.

Are they any different from the right wing Muslims?

No. To an honest observer.

Regards
DL

I'm an agnostic, I don't follow pedophiles spouting garbage. Like you do.

You misspelled militant atheist, taz.

I see that you haven't stopped being jealous of my position and that it still burns you up. Good.

If you need to see it that way, Taz, be my guest. But you are defined by your actions, not your perception of yourself.

It's my perception of the universe, not myself.

If that were the case then you could explain your perception of the universe and explain why there is no God just as I have done showing that logically God must exist as the first cause.

See?

Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?

Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country? Depends on the country and where it's located. ... :cool: "religions that preach inequality for women and gays" are all found in muslim countries, aren't they skinhead? Women in Islam had more rights than...

www.usmessageboard.com

You're not logical. Nothing you say is. Ever.

Prove it using logic, taz. Show me the flaw in my logic.

You think that the universe popped out of nothing. That's not logical.

Spontaneous creation of the Universe Ex Nihilo

Questions regarding the formation of the Universe and ‘what was there’ before it came to existence have been of great interest to mankind at all times…

www.sciencedirect.com

[1404.1207] Spontaneous creation of the universe from nothing

It’s only his opinion, we’ve gone over this before.

The links say otherwise, dummy.

Some guy sitting on a chair talking but not backing his shit up with real proof. Hmmm.... is this guy your hero?

Why Can’t We See the Big Bang? - Universe Today

We can see the cosmic background radiation, dummy. We can see the red shift too.

It's pretty obvious to me that your reluctance to accept the universe being created from nothing must mean you believe it is evidence of God.

 

[Taz]

Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?

Depends on the country and where it's located. ...

"religions that preach inequality for women and gays" are all found in muslim countries, aren't they skinhead?

Just look at what your vile lying preachers are preaching.

Are they any different from the right wing Muslims?

No. To an honest observer.

Regards
DL

I'm an agnostic, I don't follow pedophiles spouting garbage. Like you do.

You misspelled militant atheist, taz.

I see that you haven't stopped being jealous of my position and that it still burns you up. Good.

If you need to see it that way, Taz, be my guest. But you are defined by your actions, not your perception of yourself.

It's my perception of the universe, not myself.

If that were the case then you could explain your perception of the universe and explain why there is no God just as I have done showing that logically God must exist as the first cause.

See?

Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?

Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country? Depends on the country and where it's located. ... :cool: "religions that preach inequality for women and gays" are all found in muslim countries, aren't they skinhead? Women in Islam had more rights than...

www.usmessageboard.com

You're not logical. Nothing you say is. Ever.

Prove it using logic, taz. Show me the flaw in my logic.

You think that the universe popped out of nothing. That's not logical.

Spontaneous creation of the Universe Ex Nihilo

Questions regarding the formation of the Universe and ‘what was there’ before it came to existence have been of great interest to mankind at all times…

www.sciencedirect.com

[1404.1207] Spontaneous creation of the universe from nothing

It’s only his opinion, we’ve gone over this before.

The links say otherwise, dummy.

Some guy sitting on a chair talking but not backing his shit up with real proof. Hmmm.... is this guy your hero?

Why Can’t We See the Big Bang? - Universe Today

We can see the cosmic background radiation, dummy. We can see the red shift too.

It's pretty obvious to me that your reluctance to accept the universe being created from nothing must mean you believe it is evidence of God.

When we can see the Big Bang, then we'll know. Until then it's all speculation. You might even be right (that's why I'm agnostic). But we're not there yet. Btw, do us all a favour and grow up.

 

[ding]

Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?

Depends on the country and where it's located. ...

"religions that preach inequality for women and gays" are all found in muslim countries, aren't they skinhead?

Just look at what your vile lying preachers are preaching.

Are they any different from the right wing Muslims?

No. To an honest observer.

Regards
DL

I'm an agnostic, I don't follow pedophiles spouting garbage. Like you do.

You misspelled militant atheist, taz.

I see that you haven't stopped being jealous of my position and that it still burns you up. Good.

If you need to see it that way, Taz, be my guest. But you are defined by your actions, not your perception of yourself.

It's my perception of the universe, not myself.

If that were the case then you could explain your perception of the universe and explain why there is no God just as I have done showing that logically God must exist as the first cause.

See?

Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?

Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country? Depends on the country and where it's located. ... :cool: "religions that preach inequality for women and gays" are all found in muslim countries, aren't they skinhead? Women in Islam had more rights than...

www.usmessageboard.com

You're not logical. Nothing you say is. Ever.

Prove it using logic, taz. Show me the flaw in my logic.

You think that the universe popped out of nothing. That's not logical.

Spontaneous creation of the Universe Ex Nihilo

Questions regarding the formation of the Universe and ‘what was there’ before it came to existence have been of great interest to mankind at all times…

www.sciencedirect.com

[1404.1207] Spontaneous creation of the universe from nothing

It’s only his opinion, we’ve gone over this before.

The links say otherwise, dummy.

Some guy sitting on a chair talking but not backing his shit up with real proof. Hmmm.... is this guy your hero?

Why Can’t We See the Big Bang? - Universe Today

We can see the cosmic background radiation, dummy. We can see the red shift too.

It's pretty obvious to me that your reluctance to accept the universe being created from nothing must mean you believe it is evidence of God.

When we can see the Big Bang, then we'll know. Until then it's all speculation. You might even be right (that's why I'm agnostic). But we're not there yet. Btw, do us all a favour and grow up.

Science disagrees with you.

 

[Blues Man]

Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?

Our first allegiance is to our countries.

Our laws and political leanings are moving us towards laïcité, a rather rigid form of the best religious freedoms/ideology, quirky or not, for all. Keep it to yourself will be the order of the day. Happy days. All within a Western style of freedom seeking governance.

Should our backwards thinking mainstream religions be asked to be more representative of good law?

Negative discrimination without a just cause is what Yahweh admits to doing in Job 2;3., when he allowed Satan to move him to sin against Job.

Christians should admit their sin and stop preaching that it is a good to be homophobic and misogynous, contradicting the law of the land.

Regards
DL

Our first allegiance is to ourselves then our families. the country is a bit further down on the list for me

There are logical reasons the sequence is God, country and family.

I don't think a belief is gods is logical.

That's because you don't have a perception of God beyond magical fairytales, bro. So of course you don't believe belief in God is logical. I wouldn't believe in God either if I had your perception of God.

Interesting,

Do I have to believe before my perception changes or do I believe after I see something that changes my perception?

I think you have to have an open mind and objectively look at all sides before arriving at objective truth on any issue.

I do have an open mind.

I just like to have some sort of empirical evidence. There have been many times I have changed my opinion when I was presented with sufficient evidence that contradicted my original stance on a subject.

The universe and everything that has transpired since it was created from nothing being hardwired to produce intelligence is the evidence.

Not really.

The absence of scientific evidence is not in itself proof of a god being the creator of the universe.

It is just as possible that we do not yet have the technology or the mental capacity to see or understand the process of the inception of the universe.

There's no absence of evidence.

At the heart of this debate is whether or not the material world was created by spirit. If the material world were not created by spirit, then everything which has occurred since the beginning of space and time are products of the material world. Everything which is incorporeal proceeded from the corporeal. There is no middle ground. There is no other option. Either the material world was created by spirit or it wasn't. All other options will simplify to one of these two lowest common denominators which are mutually exclusive.

So we need to start from that position and examine the evidence we have at our disposal which is creation itself. Specifically, the laws of nature; physical, biological and moral. And how space and time has evolved. And how we perceive God. If we perceive God to be some magical fairy tale then everything we see will skew to that result. There won't be one single thing that we will agree with or accept.

There is no thing that can describe God because God is no thing. God is not matter and energy like us and God exists outside of our four dimension space time. In fact the premise is that God is no thing. That God is a spirit. A spirit is no thing. Being things we can't possibly relate to being no things. A two dimensional being would have an easier time trying to understand our third dimension than we - a four dimensional being - would in trying to understand a multi-dimensional being outside of our space time. The closest I can come to and later confirm with the physical laws is that God is consciousness. That Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.

So now that a realistic perception of God has been established we need to examine the only evidence at our disposal. It should be obvious that if the material world were not created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have no intentional purpose. That it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. Conversely, if the material world were created by spirit it should be obvious that the creation of the material world was intentional. After all in my perception of God, God is no thing and the closest thing I can relate to is a mind with no body. Using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.

We have good reason to believe that we find ourselves in a universe permeated with life, in which life arises inevitably, given enough time, wherever the conditions exist that make it possible. Yet were any one of a number of the physical properties of our universe otherwise - some of them basic, others seemingly trivial, almost accidental - that life, which seems now to be so prevalent, would become impossible, here or anywhere. It takes no great imagination to conceive of other possible universes, each stable and workable in itself, yet lifeless. How is it that, with so many other apparent options, we are in a universe that possesses just that peculiar nexus of properties that breeds beings that know and create.

The biological laws are such that life is programmed to survive and multiply which is a requisite for intelligence to arise. If the purpose of the universe was to create intelligence then a preference in nature for it had to exist. The Laws of Nature are such that the potential for intelligence to existed the moment space and time were created. One can argue that given the laws of nature and the size of the universe that intelligence arising was inevitable. One can also argue that creating intelligence from nothing defies the Second Law of Entropy. That creating intelligence from nothing increases order within the universe. It actually doesn't because usable energy was lost along the way as a cost of creating order from disorder. But it is nature overriding it's tendency for ever increasing disorder that interests me and raises my suspicions to look deeper and to take seriously the proposition that a mind without a body created the material world so that minds with bodies could create too.

If we examine the physical laws we discover that we live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

All we have done so far is to make a logical argument for spirit creating the material world. Certainly not an argument built of fairy tales that's for sure. So going back to the two possibilities; spirit creating the material world versus everything proceeding from the material, the key distinction is no thing versus thing. So if we assume that everything I have described was just an accidental coincidence of the properties of matter, the logical conclusion is that matter and energy are just doing what matter and energy do which makes sense. The problem is that for matter and energy to do what matter and energy do, there has to be rules in place for matter and energy to obey. The formation of space and time followed rules. Specifically the law of conservation and quantum mechanics. These laws existed before space and time and defined the potential of everything which was possible. These laws are no thing. So we literally have an example of no thing existing before the material world. The creation of space and time from nothing is literally correct. Space and time were created from no thing. Spirit is no thing. No thing created space and time.

If the universe were created through natural process and we are an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do, then there should be no expectation for absolute morals. Morals can be anything we want them to be. The problem is that nature does have a preference for an outcome. Societies and people which behave with virtue experience order and harmony. Societies and people which behave without virtue experience disorder and chaos. So we can see from the outcomes that not all behaviors have equal outcomes. That some behaviors have better outcomes and some behaviors have worse outcomes. This is the moral law at work. If the universe was created by spirit for the express purpose of creating beings that know and create we would expect that we would receive feedback on how we behave. The problem is that violating moral laws are not like violating physical laws. When we violate a physical law the consequences are immediate. If you try to defy gravity by jumping off a roof you will fall. Whereas the consequences for violating a moral law are more probabilistic in nature; many times we get away with it.

Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a reason. When we deviate from this standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the reason the standard exists will be discovered. The reason this happens is because error cannot stand. Eventually error will fail and the truth will be discovered. Thus proving that morals cannot be anything we want them to be but are indeed based upon some universal code of common decency that is independent of man.

So the question that naturally begs to be asked is if there is a universal code of common decency that is independent of man how come we all don't behave the same way when it comes to right and wrong? The reason man doesn't behave the same way is because of subjectivity. The difference between being objective and being subjective is bias. Bias is eliminated when there is no preference for an outcome. To eliminate a preference for an outcome one must have no thought of the consequences to one's self. If one does not practice this they will see subjective truth instead of objective truth. Subjective truth leads to moral relativism. Where consequences to self and preferences for an outcome leads to rationalizations of right and wrong.

Man does know right from wrong and when he violates it rather than abandoning the concept of right and wrong he rationalizes he did not violate it. You can see this behavior in almost all quarrels and disagreements. At the heart of every quarrel and disagreement is a belief in a universal right and wrong. So even though each side believes right to be different each side expects the other to believe their side should be universally known and accepted. It is this behavior which tells us there is an expectation for an absolute truth.

If there were never a universal truth that existed man would never have an expectation of fairness to begin with because fairness would have no meaning. The fact that each of us has an expectation of fairness and that we expect everyone else to follow ought to raise our suspicion on the origin of that expectation.

And how do you know the evidence we have regarding the inception of the universe is all the evidence there is?

And now you're bringing the spiritual into this? And we've already been over the morality and ethics argument and we do not agree so I see no need to rehash that one.

We know from science that space and time had a beginning. Specifically, red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations, quantum mechanics, the First Law of Thermodynamics, the Second Law of Thermodynamics and Inflation Theory.

Red shift, cosmic background radiation and Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations tells us that all matter and energy in the universe once occupied the space of 1 billionth of 1 trillionth the size of an atom and then began to expand and cool. The the First Law of Thermodynamics (i.e. conservation of energy) tells us that since that time matter and energy has only changed form. Which means that the atoms in our bodies were created from nothing when space and and time were created from nothing.

Red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations and the Second Law of Thermodynamics tells us that space and time did have a beginning. If the universe is expanding then it must have a beginning. If you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. You cannot continue that history indefinitely. This is still true even if a universe has periods of contraction. It still has to have a beginning if expansion over weights the contraction. Physicists have been uncomfortable with the idea of a beginning since the work of Friedman which showed that the solutions of Einstein's equation showed that the universe had a beginning. The problem with a cyclical universe is with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. For every matter to energy or energy to matter exchange there is a loss of usable energy. So while the total energy of the universe does not decrease, the usable energy of the universe does decrease. If it is a periodic or cyclical universe then the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same. Entropy can never decrease. Which means that in a finite amount of time, a finite system will reach a maximum state of disorder which is called thermal equilibrium and then it will stay in that state. A cyclical universe cannot avoid this problem. Since we do not see thermal equilibrium (good thing too because there would be no life) we know that the universe did have a beginning.

Inflation Theory, the First Law of Thermodynamics and quantum mechanics tells us that it is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

But we don't know what happened the nanosecond before the beginning so all we know is the effect of the cause but not the cause itself.

You want to say the cause is a god. I am saying that we do not have enough information to say what caused the creation of the universe and the only thing we can see and measure are the aftereffects of the inception of the universe.

If we do not know what happened before the inflationary event we call the big bang we do not know the cause.

I am saying that the first cause cannot be matter or energy, so what is left?

We don't know.

You are assuming it was some otherworldly being.

I am not making that assumption because I have no evidence of the existence of any otherworldly beings.

Is it an assumption that the nature of intelligence is to create intelligence?

of course.

We think ourselves intelligent beings but have we created intelligence?

You like to attach characteristics to the universe because you have assigned a purpose to the universe. I don't assume the universe has a purpose.

We made smart phones. We made automation. We made PLC logic. We made AI.

I don't believe anyone would argue that we are obsessed with making smart things. Except maybe you.

Of course the universe has a purpose. It is an intelligence creating machine. You can only tell what something purpose is by its finished product. That would be intelligence for the universe. Everything that unfolded was leading to the universe becoming self aware. Despite your objection, you are a product of the universe.

Those are nothing but storage devices.

They are not intelligent in and of themselves but rather run on a set of rules and algorithms that humans have devised.

And I never said I wasn't a product of the universe.

I can be a product of a universe that has no purpose.

Right, but they simulate intelligence because man is obsessed with making smart things. Thus proving it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence.

You could be a product of a universe that has no purpose but that would be an astronomically incredible series of coincidences. It is much more likely that intelligence hardwired into the laws of nature for intelligence to exist than it is an accidental happenstance of matter and energy doing what matter and energy do because matter and energy follow laws of nature which in and of themselves are no things and had to exist before space and time because space and time were created according to the laws of nature.

We have not created intelligence. A smart phone isn't smart in and of itself. it can't do anything other than what we have told it to do.

And considering the size and age of the universe it is not unreasonable to think that we very well may be the results of trillions upon trillions upon trillions of random events over billions of years.

I'm not going to argue with you about this. If you don't want to believe that it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence, then don't.

As for random events... I already explained this to you... If we examine the physical laws we discover that we live in a logical universe governed by rules, laws and information. Rules laws and information are a signs of intelligence. Intentionality and purpose are signs of intelligence. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The consequence of a logical universe is that every cause has an effect. Which means that everything happens for a reason and serves a purpose. The very nature of our physical laws point to reason and purpose.

You are saying that we created intelligence we haven't.

We have created storage devices that work very quickly and operate on a simple binary code. That is not intelligence but you are claiming it is.

So since you think everything that has ever happened has happened for some purpose tell me what is the purpose of a single collision of 2 individual dust molecules that happened 12 billion years ago.

What part of... "I'm not going to argue with you about this. If you don't want to believe that it is the nature of intelligence to create intelligence, then don't" did you not understand. I've made my case.

You take what I wrote out of context. The definition of reason is a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event. The definition of purpose is the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists. The reason two individual dust particles collided was because they were on a collision path. So they did not just randomly collide.

You don't understand that no human creation up to this point is an intelligence. but back to your assertion that the universe and therefore everything that has ever happened in the universe has a purpose.

So then is it your contention that those 2 dust molecules were put on a collision course for some reason by some intelligent force or were they merely on that collision course because of an unknown number of other events occurring over an unknown time span? If it was the latter then it was a random event.

And how does that collision have any purpose?

No. That's not what I am saying. Try again.

If the universe has a purpose then surely everything that happens in the universe must work towards that purpose.

Or since we don't know what 95% of the universe is made of or how it interacts with any of the 5% we do know are you just imposing a purpose on the universe?

It does, but not in the way you are describing.

so what is the purpose as you describe it of a collision between 2 dust molecules 12 billion years ago?

To exist and to evolve.

and who defined that purpose? The dust? and how does a dust molecule evolve?

There is no purpose to a dust collision. It just is what it is. Just like the universe it just is. it is neither perfect nor imperfect.

Humans like to see patterns where there are none.