At least these 25 people weren't killed with a gun...they were killed with fire, so much better...

Wrong. The Department of Justice using actual research determined the number to be 1.5 million times a year....the Centers for Disease Control put it at 1.1 million times a year.....

No, they didn't.

Here's the FBI Figures on DGU's.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf

In 2012, across the nation there were only 259 justifiable homicides1 involving a private citizen using a firearm reported to the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program as detailed in its Supplementary Homicide Report (SHR).2 That same year, there were 8,342 criminal gun homicides tallied in the SHR. In 2012, for every justifiable homicide in the United States involving a gun, guns were used in 32 criminal homicides. 3 And this ratio, of course, does not take into account the tens of thousands of lives ended in gun suicides or unintentional shootings that year.4

Using the NCVS numbers, for the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the total number of self protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes totaled only 338,700. In comparison, the gun lobby claims that during the same five-year period guns were used 12.5 million times in self defense (applying to the five-year period the gun lobby’s oft repeated claim, noted earlier, that firearms are used in self defense 2.5 million times a year).

CONCLUSION The reality of self-defense gun use bears no resemblance to the exaggerated claims of the gun lobby and gun industry. The number of justifiable homicides that occur in our nation each year pale in comparison to criminal homicides, let alone gun suicides and fatal unintentional shootings. And contrary to the common stereotype promulgated by the gun lobby, those killed in justifiable homicide incidents don’t always fit the expected profile of an attack by a stranger: in 35.5 percent of the justifiable homicides that occurred in 2012 the persons shot were known to the shooter. The devastation guns inflict on our nation each and every year is clear: more than 33,000 dead, more than 81,000 wounded, and an untold number of lives traumatized and communities shattered. Unexamined claims of the efficacy and frequency of the self-defense use of firearms are the default rationale offered by the gun lobby and gun industry for this unceasing, bloody toll. The idea that firearms are frequently used in self-defense is the primary argument that the gun lobby and firearms industry use to expand the carrying of firearms into an ever-increasing number of public spaces and even to prevent the regulation of military-style semiautomatic assault weapons and high-capacity ammunition magazines. Yet this argument is hollow and the assertions false. When analyzing the most reliable data available, what is most striking is that in a nation of more than 300 million guns, how rarely firearms are used in self-defense.14
 
Wrong. The Department of Justice using actual research determined the number to be 1.5 million times a year....the Centers for Disease Control put it at 1.1 million times a year.....

No, they didn't.

Here's the FBI Figures on DGU's.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf

In 2012, across the nation there were only 259 justifiable homicides1 involving a private citizen using a firearm reported to the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program as detailed in its Supplementary Homicide Report (SHR).2 That same year, there were 8,342 criminal gun homicides tallied in the SHR. In 2012, for every justifiable homicide in the United States involving a gun, guns were used in 32 criminal homicides. 3 And this ratio, of course, does not take into account the tens of thousands of lives ended in gun suicides or unintentional shootings that year.4

Using the NCVS numbers, for the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the total number of self protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes totaled only 338,700. In comparison, the gun lobby claims that during the same five-year period guns were used 12.5 million times in self defense (applying to the five-year period the gun lobby’s oft repeated claim, noted earlier, that firearms are used in self defense 2.5 million times a year).

CONCLUSION The reality of self-defense gun use bears no resemblance to the exaggerated claims of the gun lobby and gun industry. The number of justifiable homicides that occur in our nation each year pale in comparison to criminal homicides, let alone gun suicides and fatal unintentional shootings. And contrary to the common stereotype promulgated by the gun lobby, those killed in justifiable homicide incidents don’t always fit the expected profile of an attack by a stranger: in 35.5 percent of the justifiable homicides that occurred in 2012 the persons shot were known to the shooter. The devastation guns inflict on our nation each and every year is clear: more than 33,000 dead, more than 81,000 wounded, and an untold number of lives traumatized and communities shattered. Unexamined claims of the efficacy and frequency of the self-defense use of firearms are the default rationale offered by the gun lobby and gun industry for this unceasing, bloody toll. The idea that firearms are frequently used in self-defense is the primary argument that the gun lobby and firearms industry use to expand the carrying of firearms into an ever-increasing number of public spaces and even to prevent the regulation of military-style semiautomatic assault weapons and high-capacity ammunition magazines. Yet this argument is hollow and the assertions false. When analyzing the most reliable data available, what is most striking is that in a nation of more than 300 million guns, how rarely firearms are used in self-defense.14


Moron, the National Crime Victimization Survey doesn't ask one question about gun self defense and doesn't have the word "Gun" in it....it doesn't count as a defensive gun use tool because it doesn't address actual gun self defense, unlike the Centers for disease control and the Department of Justice study, you imbecile....

How on earth do you cite a study on gun self defense that is not a study on gun self defense?

Moron...this is what even the Daily Koz had to say about the NCVS and guns...

The Daily Kos on why the NCVS is wrong...
Defensive Gun Use Part III - The National Crime Victimization Study

The disadvantages of this study design are:
1) the study is not specifically designed to measure DGUs;

2) the study does not track every type of crime;

3) the study does not ask every interviewee about episodes of DGU;

4) interviewees are not specifically asked about defending themselves with a gun;

5) follow-up studies have demonstrated that the incidence of assault (and especially assaults by relatives and non-strangers) in the NCVS is under-reported, and if crime is under-reported then so too will DGUs be under-reported;

6) respondents’ anonymity is not preserved, and some interviewees may therefore feel wary or unwilling to discuss gun use with federal government employees.
 
Wrong. The Department of Justice using actual research determined the number to be 1.5 million times a year....the Centers for Disease Control put it at 1.1 million times a year.....

No, they didn't.

Here's the FBI Figures on DGU's.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf

In 2012, across the nation there were only 259 justifiable homicides1 involving a private citizen using a firearm reported to the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program as detailed in its Supplementary Homicide Report (SHR).2 That same year, there were 8,342 criminal gun homicides tallied in the SHR. In 2012, for every justifiable homicide in the United States involving a gun, guns were used in 32 criminal homicides. 3 And this ratio, of course, does not take into account the tens of thousands of lives ended in gun suicides or unintentional shootings that year.4

Using the NCVS numbers, for the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the total number of self protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes totaled only 338,700. In comparison, the gun lobby claims that during the same five-year period guns were used 12.5 million times in self defense (applying to the five-year period the gun lobby’s oft repeated claim, noted earlier, that firearms are used in self defense 2.5 million times a year).

CONCLUSION The reality of self-defense gun use bears no resemblance to the exaggerated claims of the gun lobby and gun industry. The number of justifiable homicides that occur in our nation each year pale in comparison to criminal homicides, let alone gun suicides and fatal unintentional shootings. And contrary to the common stereotype promulgated by the gun lobby, those killed in justifiable homicide incidents don’t always fit the expected profile of an attack by a stranger: in 35.5 percent of the justifiable homicides that occurred in 2012 the persons shot were known to the shooter. The devastation guns inflict on our nation each and every year is clear: more than 33,000 dead, more than 81,000 wounded, and an untold number of lives traumatized and communities shattered. Unexamined claims of the efficacy and frequency of the self-defense use of firearms are the default rationale offered by the gun lobby and gun industry for this unceasing, bloody toll. The idea that firearms are frequently used in self-defense is the primary argument that the gun lobby and firearms industry use to expand the carrying of firearms into an ever-increasing number of public spaces and even to prevent the regulation of military-style semiautomatic assault weapons and high-capacity ammunition magazines. Yet this argument is hollow and the assertions false. When analyzing the most reliable data available, what is most striking is that in a nation of more than 300 million guns, how rarely firearms are used in self-defense.14


The NCVS, which is not even a defensive gun use study is the only study with totals that low....because they don't even ask about defensive gun use...you twit...these studies actually did...all 17 of them...

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
 
Moron, the National Crime Victimization Survey doesn't ask one question about gun self defense and doesn't have the word "Gun" in it....it doesn't count as a defensive gun use tool because it doesn't address actual gun self defense, unlike the Centers for disease control and the Department of Justice study, you imbecile....

Again, guy, I'll trust the FBI before Kleck and Lott...
 
Wrong. The Department of Justice using actual research determined the number to be 1.5 million times a year....the Centers for Disease Control put it at 1.1 million times a year.....

No, they didn't.

Here's the FBI Figures on DGU's.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf

In 2012, across the nation there were only 259 justifiable homicides1 involving a private citizen using a firearm reported to the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program as detailed in its Supplementary Homicide Report (SHR).2 That same year, there were 8,342 criminal gun homicides tallied in the SHR. In 2012, for every justifiable homicide in the United States involving a gun, guns were used in 32 criminal homicides. 3 And this ratio, of course, does not take into account the tens of thousands of lives ended in gun suicides or unintentional shootings that year.4

Using the NCVS numbers, for the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the total number of self protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes totaled only 338,700. In comparison, the gun lobby claims that during the same five-year period guns were used 12.5 million times in self defense (applying to the five-year period the gun lobby’s oft repeated claim, noted earlier, that firearms are used in self defense 2.5 million times a year).

CONCLUSION The reality of self-defense gun use bears no resemblance to the exaggerated claims of the gun lobby and gun industry. The number of justifiable homicides that occur in our nation each year pale in comparison to criminal homicides, let alone gun suicides and fatal unintentional shootings. And contrary to the common stereotype promulgated by the gun lobby, those killed in justifiable homicide incidents don’t always fit the expected profile of an attack by a stranger: in 35.5 percent of the justifiable homicides that occurred in 2012 the persons shot were known to the shooter. The devastation guns inflict on our nation each and every year is clear: more than 33,000 dead, more than 81,000 wounded, and an untold number of lives traumatized and communities shattered. Unexamined claims of the efficacy and frequency of the self-defense use of firearms are the default rationale offered by the gun lobby and gun industry for this unceasing, bloody toll. The idea that firearms are frequently used in self-defense is the primary argument that the gun lobby and firearms industry use to expand the carrying of firearms into an ever-increasing number of public spaces and even to prevent the regulation of military-style semiautomatic assault weapons and high-capacity ammunition magazines. Yet this argument is hollow and the assertions false. When analyzing the most reliable data available, what is most striking is that in a nation of more than 300 million guns, how rarely firearms are used in self-defense.14

Are you being deliberately disingenuous? You keep cutting the number of HOMICIDES, when clearly the defensive uses do not even have to involve the gun being fired.
 
Moron, the National Crime Victimization Survey doesn't ask one question about gun self defense and doesn't have the word "Gun" in it....it doesn't count as a defensive gun use tool because it doesn't address actual gun self defense, unlike the Centers for disease control and the Department of Justice study, you imbecile....

Again, guy, I'll trust the FBI before Kleck and Lott...

Sure, just compare apples to apples.
 
Are you being deliberately disingenuous? You keep cutting the number of HOMICIDES, when clearly the defensive uses do not even have to involve the gun being fired.

Go back, read what I posted, have someone help you with the big words.

Sure, just compare apples to apples.

I am. the FBI thinks there are about 60K DGU's a year. That's a number that makes sense, given that you only have about 250 self-defense homicides.

On the other hand, - the Kleck or Lott numbers of millions are just silly. You'd have to believe that guns are whipped out millions of times, but only a handful of people end up dead.
 
Moron, the National Crime Victimization Survey doesn't ask one question about gun self defense and doesn't have the word "Gun" in it....it doesn't count as a defensive gun use tool because it doesn't address actual gun self defense, unlike the Centers for disease control and the Department of Justice study, you imbecile....

Again, guy, I'll trust the FBI before Kleck and Lott...


Moron, the Centers for Disease Control and the Department of Justice are not Kleck or Lott....you dumb ass......and of Kleck and Lott, they are two anti-gunners who actually found out most of the data that came before the CDC and DOJ research....
 
Are you being deliberately disingenuous? You keep cutting the number of HOMICIDES, when clearly the defensive uses do not even have to involve the gun being fired.

Go back, read what I posted, have someone help you with the big words.

Sure, just compare apples to apples.

I am. the FBI thinks there are about 60K DGU's a year. That's a number that makes sense, given that you only have about 250 self-defense homicides.

On the other hand, - the Kleck or Lott numbers of millions are just silly. You'd have to believe that guns are whipped out millions of times, but only a handful of people end up dead.


17 separate studies into defensive gun use........ Again, the CDC and the DOJ are just two....Kleck is another....then you have the rest...

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
 
Moron, the Centers for Disease Control and the Department of Justice are not Kleck or Lott....

Yes, that's what they quoted, in like saying, "Those studies exist, so theyare a thing."

The FBI says 60K. that actually makes sense.

So other than name-calling and NRA Spooge... do you have anything that doesn't waste my time?
 
Moron, the Centers for Disease Control and the Department of Justice are not Kleck or Lott....

Yes, that's what they quoted, in like saying, "Those studies exist, so theyare a thing."

The FBI says 60K. that actually makes sense.

So other than name-calling and NRA Spooge... do you have anything that doesn't waste my time?


Moron, the FBI didn't do research, they just recorded reported crimes. The CDC, and the DOJ actually dug into the issue and did actual research.......they did this research to refute Kleck's work and in setting up their own research with their own, anti-gun researchers to prove Kleck wrong, in order to push more gun control...they found

The CDC...1.1 million defensive gun uses each year.

The DOJ....1.5 million defensive gun usse each year.

Two separate studies, executed by two very different branches of the government......and you want to deny what they found as if you have some hidden knowledge.

Then, add that to the other 14 actual gun self defense studies...and the concept is pretty clear.....more guns in the hands of normal people do not increase gun crime.....

The anti-gun theory and argument.....

More Guns = More Gun crime regardless of any other factors.

Actual Result:

In the U.S....as more Americans own and carry guns over the last 26 years, gun murder down 49%, gun crime down 75%, violent crime down 72%

The result: Exact opposite of theory of anti-gunners....


In Science when you have a theory, when that theory is tested....and the exact opposite result happens...that means your theory is wrong. That is science....not left wing wishful thinking.
 
Moron, the FBI didn't do research, they just recorded reported crimes. The CDC, and the DOJ actually dug into the issue and did actual research..

The CDC hasn't been allowed to do gun research since Kellerman found out that that guns kill 43 times more family members than bad guys.

So you really don't have anything other than NRA Spooge...
 
Over 22,000 of them were suicide...... you keep lying, you asshat.

Dead is dead.... they'd be alive if there wasn't a gun in the house.

Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to save lives.

no, they don't. Even if you accept the absurd number of 1.1 million DGU's, most of those were to prevent property crimes, not save lives.

Of course, the number is utter bullshit, so there's no point arguing it.

The FBI lists 200 uses of firearms in JUSTIFIABLE homicides a year.

So if you take yotterly silly number, of 1.1 million, you'd have to believe that in 1,099,800 cases were you had a desperate criminal and a scared guy compensating for a tiny pecker, the mere sight of a gun got the criminal to back off.

It's silly.
I've been over this with 2A before
there are NOT 1 million SD uses
it makes ALL his arguments RIDICULOUS--like the pool argument
their brains are so warped they believe this CRAZY crap

.....it was a SURVEY where they SURVEYED a few thousand people and ASKED them about their firearm use..then they extrapolated the data
..they are not logged in/not documented--not reported to police/etc
.....some other gun nut ADMITTED the [ hahahhaha ] SD users do not report their SD use!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! for fear they would be ''arrested'''/etc [ HAHAHAHAH ] for using their firearm for SD!!
IDIOCY--this IS idiocy

..if there were 1 million SD uses, that would mean there would be over 60 SD uses for every ONE murder !!!! = ridiculous/impossible
..and if true, that would mean the US crime rate is much higher than reported
..actually I put out the facts [ not a SURVEY ] long ago where there are dozens of murders per every SD use....
 
Moron, the FBI didn't do research, they just recorded reported crimes. The CDC, and the DOJ actually dug into the issue and did actual research..

The CDC hasn't been allowed to do gun research since Kellerman found out that that guns kill 43 times more family members than bad guys.

So you really don't have anything other than NRA Spooge...


And that too is a lie...sorry.....and again with the 43....you know that is a lie, you have been shown over and over again that he even retracted that number and did more research, still flawed, and came back with 2.3......using the same bad research methods...

And the CDC was not banned from doing gun research, I have a list of gun research they did after they were told to stop pushing for gun control....

Nothing I posted came from the NRA...it came from the Centers for Disease Control and the Department of Justice...
 
Over 22,000 of them were suicide...... you keep lying, you asshat.

Dead is dead.... they'd be alive if there wasn't a gun in the house.

Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to save lives.

no, they don't. Even if you accept the absurd number of 1.1 million DGU's, most of those were to prevent property crimes, not save lives.

Of course, the number is utter bullshit, so there's no point arguing it.

The FBI lists 200 uses of firearms in JUSTIFIABLE homicides a year.

So if you take yotterly silly number, of 1.1 million, you'd have to believe that in 1,099,800 cases were you had a desperate criminal and a scared guy compensating for a tiny pecker, the mere sight of a gun got the criminal to back off.

It's silly.
I've been over this with 2A before
there are NOT 1 million SD uses
it makes ALL his arguments RIDICULOUS--like the pool argument
their brains are so warped they believe this CRAZY crap

.....it was a SURVEY where they SURVEYED a few thousand people and ASKED them about their firearm use..then they extrapolated the data
..they are not logged in/not documented--not reported to police/etc
.....some other gun nut ADMITTED the [ hahahhaha ] SD users do not report their SD use!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! for fear they would be ''arrested'''/etc [ HAHAHAHAH ] for using their firearm for SD!!
IDIOCY--this IS idiocy

..if there were 1 million SD uses, that would mean there would be over 60 SD uses for every ONE murder !!!! = ridiculous/impossible
..and if true, that would mean the US crime rate is much higher than reported
..actually I put out the facts [ not a SURVEY ] long ago where there are dozens of murders per every SD use....

17 different studies shitstain......and they all came out with those numbers....including the vaunted Centers for Disease Control, and the Department of Justice....actual researchers using research techniques used for every other thing they study....
 
Over 22,000 of them were suicide...... you keep lying, you asshat.

Dead is dead.... they'd be alive if there wasn't a gun in the house.

Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to save lives.

no, they don't. Even if you accept the absurd number of 1.1 million DGU's, most of those were to prevent property crimes, not save lives.

Of course, the number is utter bullshit, so there's no point arguing it.

The FBI lists 200 uses of firearms in JUSTIFIABLE homicides a year.

So if you take yotterly silly number, of 1.1 million, you'd have to believe that in 1,099,800 cases were you had a desperate criminal and a scared guy compensating for a tiny pecker, the mere sight of a gun got the criminal to back off.

It's silly.
I've been over this with 2A before
there are NOT 1 million SD uses
it makes ALL his arguments RIDICULOUS--like the pool argument
their brains are so warped they believe this CRAZY crap

.....it was a SURVEY where they SURVEYED a few thousand people and ASKED them about their firearm use..then they extrapolated the data
..they are not logged in/not documented--not reported to police/etc
.....some other gun nut ADMITTED the [ hahahhaha ] SD users do not report their SD use!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! for fear they would be ''arrested'''/etc [ HAHAHAHAH ] for using their firearm for SD!!
IDIOCY--this IS idiocy

..if there were 1 million SD uses, that would mean there would be over 60 SD uses for every ONE murder !!!! = ridiculous/impossible
..and if true, that would mean the US crime rate is much higher than reported
..actually I put out the facts [ not a SURVEY ] long ago where there are dozens of murders per every SD use....

17 different studies shitstain......and they all came out with those numbers....including the vaunted Centers for Disease Control, and the Department of Justice....actual researchers using research techniques used for every other thing they study....
they use the SURVEY
hahah
1.1 MILLION--your brain is washed
there is NOW WAY there are 1.1 MILLION
 
So.....33 killed in Tokyo using about a gallon of gasoline, and now 25 people killed with a gallon of gasoline......even with the higher cost of living in Japan, that would be what, no more than 10 bucks in gas and in Mexico, about 5 bucks....

Luckily....these people were killed by burning to death, and not with a gun.......er....right?

At least 25 killed in 'horrendous' arson attack on bar in Mexico

Mexico, Aug 28 (Reuters) - At least 25 people were killed in an arson attack by suspected gang members on a bar in the southeastern Mexican port of Coatzacoalcos late on Tuesday, President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador said, in a fresh blow to his efforts to curb violence.

Calling the attack "horrendous," Lopez Obrador told a regular morning news conference on Wednesday that the deaths occurred after the suspected gangsters closed the emergency exits of the bar in Coatzacoalcos and set fire to it.

The attorney general's office of the state of Veracruz said overnight that eight women and 15 men died in the fire at the "Caballo Blanco" bar, and 13 people who were seriously wounded were hospitalized for treatment.

Lopez Obrador said 25 people had died so far and that initial investigations indicated that some suspects behind the attack had been in custody this year and were later released.
That is not politically correct… Progressive cowards know this to be true
 
33,000 killed with guns.

I can outrun a fire... I can't outrun a bullet.
Lol
Suicides do not count, they take care of themselves.

Vehicles kill a lot more people, and we don’t even have a right to vehicle ownership… So shut the fuck up you spineless piece of shit.
 
17 different studies shitstain..

All bullshit.

Oh, look, another mass shooting. Better get busy, buddy, telling us how pools are more dangerous or that these folks didn't count for some reason.
Lol
Lawnmowers Kill more people every year then people using ARs to kill people, And we don’t even have a right to Lawnmower ownership.
Get a grip and quit your crying you pussy whipped bitch...
 

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