Blowing up ID’iot creationism.

It's clear that he's going to try to rationalize everything away, trying so hard to deny truth.

"Deny truth". :p lmao :lmao:

No, I'm simply exposing your false statement.

It's actually very sad. Some atheists try so hard to deny truth... I think it really comes down to some people simply not wanting to be accountable for their actions, their words, their life, etc. They want to continue being their own god. I get it. I was there once, myself. :dunno:

Hilarious.

Still waiting for some absolute truth.
 
Claiming to be wise, they became fools

Romans 1:22


^ that scripture has your name all over it.
Let's cut to the chase.

Because you won't be able to show any absolute truth.

Here's the lesson:

I want you to be be HONEST, and say this simple thing:

"It's a matter of faith".

It's not truth, it's not science, it's just faith.

I'll tell you straight up, my belief in God is a matter of faith. Anything else, would be exceeding my scope.

My faith is personal, it doesn't matter to anyone but me. And, I'll tell you that straight up. "If" you ask. Which you didn't. You suggested I was an atheist, which is not the case. I'm Christian. My wife is Buddhist. We don't argue, we find common ground.
 
It will rain.

Only if there's a whole lot of it. Otherwise it'll become a gas and dissipate.

It becomes ice.

Is ice wet? At that temperature? I don't think so. It's hard as a rock. It doesn't even crack. If you take it out and put it in a tray in the room it kind of sublimes, bypasses the water stage and goes straight to gas.

Are you absolutely sure you went to school and have the ability to think and reason?
You've never seen ice sublime? That's high school chemistry, ain't it? :p
 
Only if there's a whole lot of it. Otherwise it'll become a gas and dissipate.

Another truth statement?

SMH.


Is ice wet? At that temperature? I don't think so. It's hard as a rock. It doesn't even crack. If you take it out and put it in a tray in the room it kind of sublimes, bypasses the water stage and goes straight to gas.

Like I said then.


You've never seen ice sublime? That's high school chemistry, ain't it? :p

Dry ice?
 
Creationism, although false, is interesting to read.
You don’t know that it’s false.

You may believe that it isn’t logical or that it’s unprovable.

Hell; you might even be right. But you certainly don’t “know” it.

Scientists also largely believe that everything that exists came into being due to a big bang. But most scientists tend to concede that they don’t “know” it. For, among other things, where did that little speck that explosively bloomed into the Big Bang come from?
 
Another truth statement?

Science. Independently observable and repeatable.

The word you're looking for.is CONFIDENCE.

Not "truth".

Like I said then.

Dry ice?

I want Christians to have a good name.

Because if you have a bad name, it gives me one too.

Faith is faith. Stand up for your faith. Don't claim it's science, because it's not.

There's nothing wrong with faith, is there?
 
Science. Independently observable and repeatable.

The word you're looking for.is CONFIDENCE.

Not "truth".

How do you observe billions of years?

I agree it's not truth though.


Faith is faith. Stand up for your faith. Don't claim it's science, because it's not.

There's nothing wrong with faith, is there?

I agree.

You should do the same, stop hiding your faith behind the "science" lie.

Science is repeatable and observable as you stated.
 
How do you observe billions of years?

Good question. Probably "we don't" is the short answer. We can only see the results, not the path it took. Unless the path leaves landmarks, which it sometimes does.

I agree it's not truth though.

Excellent. We're making progress. :)

I agree.

You should do the same, stop hiding your faith behind the "science" lie.

lol

"Confidence".

In logic (Bayesian) there is something called "the posterior", which basically measures how much new information you get from each successive observation. It's related to the confidence in your proposition.

So for instance, if we're talking about evolution and I'm looking at fossils, I probably don't get a whole lot of confidence if I see 5 or 10 or even 100.

But if I then discover a molecular mechanism that explains the fossil results, my confidence goes way up.

Science is repeatable and observable as you stated.
Yeah - well - some would argue that faith is that way too. But I've reached the conclusion that it's personal. Because it doesn't work for "everyone", "all the time". However in the group it does work for, it seems worthy of confidence.
 
It doesn't leave time stamps with those paths and landmarks.
True. Sometimes we get lucky and we can do some C-14 or something. Once in a great while we get "really" lucky and find a few strands of DNA. Mostly though, by the time we find the bones the kids have trampled on them and the winos have peed on them and time has taken its course. The computers help. Before computers, reconstructing a skeleton took half a lifetime. Now it's only a year or two.

In any case, evolution is definitely not a linear process. There were at least 5 gigantic extinction events, and several times when the Earth's temperature climbed to 140 degrees. Most of the animals we see today (dogs, cats) are only about 50 million years old. There was an extinction event just before that, called Cretaceous, at about 65 million years. And, the interesting thing about that is what it did to the Hox genes.

The Hox genes give body parts their shape, and their position. We know a lot about them from frogs, which are about 250 million years or so. Which would be around the time of the previous extinction event, the Triassic, when the earth was pretty warm. The interesting thing about the Hox genes is they're all together in the genome, they're all right next to each other. So we "believe" they probably evolved all at once.

1734324952572.webp


If we deliberately tweak the Hox gene that codes for the head region of a frog, we can make it grow arms where it's eyes are supposed to be. They're full arms, with webbed fingers and everything. So this one single gene is directing a bunch of other genes, it's a "commander" that tells the others where and when to express themselves.

And it "makes sense", that the regular head to toe pattern of Hox genes didn't arise instantly, there must have been variations of it. But any frog with no eyes and arms instead, would have a huge disadvantage and would probably have been eaten by dinosaurs or some such thing. Which might explain why we don't find any such fossils.

The thing is, the engineering is a lot more interesting than the history. There's a ton of research right now on "homeotic transformations" where one body part looks like another. It works for internal organs too, not just limbs. Like, Hox-3.3 mice have an extra pair of ribs in the lumbar area, Hox-4 mice have ribs on their 7th cervical vertebrae and so on. Here's an example of a double homeotic transformation:


This is all "genetic engineering", not necessarily evolution. But it shows us how new body plans might have developed, from mutations in a single gene. Which is something we didn't know until recently. It seems that every extinction event led to the subsequent appearance of a bunch of new species, and we really have no idea how or why at this point. But at least we know which parts of the genome were new and related to the visible genetic differences.
 
Here's a more dramatic example of a homeotic frog.

1734327398336.webp



Homeosis is responsible for the loss of a spinal segment between monkeys and humans, which lets us walk upright. We lost the last lumbar vertebrae and the tail.

 
If instead of genes we look at proteins, the number of variations becomes overwhelming. For example - here is a set called Tbox, which are proteins that bind to DNA.


If you click on any one of the names, you can see approximately what we know about it. I'll just pick one at random -


So this one (TBX-20) says:

INVOLVED IN blood circulation (ortholog); branching involved in blood vessel morphogenesis (ortholog); cardiac chamber formation (ortholog)

and

ASSOCIATED WITH Animal Disease Models (ortholog); aortic valve disease 1 (ortholog); atrial heart septal defect (ortholog)

Someday someone is going to have to drill down into each one of these. But it's the same story. Here's a map of the heart related Tbox genes in a rat, you can see they're all together.

1734328787392.webp


And, we know how these maps look in different species, so we can put together phylogenetic maps like this:

1734328984583.webp


You can see why the computers are needed. There's hundreds of these things, maybe thousands.

Up until a few years ago we used to think once we have the gene sequence the puzzle is solved. And then it was like oh noez...

But with the aid of computers, we're currently working out the dynamics. Each of these Tbox proteins represents a feedback loop, from the DNA to the protein and back again. The protein binds to the DNA to tell it how many copies to make of itself. If something goes wrong, you get your atrial heart valve disease or whatever.

This is the "precision" of life, beyond just the macroscopic picture of where the limbs are. The Hox genes have visible consequences that would ordinarily be associated with speciation because we'd see them in the fossil record (extra vertebrae and like that). But the Tboxes have invisible consequences, a malformed heart valve isn't going to show up in any fossil
 
You don’t know that it’s false.

You may believe that it isn’t logical or that it’s unprovable.

Hell; you might even be right. But you certainly don’t “know” it.

Scientists also largely believe that everything that exists came into being due to a big bang. But most scientists tend to concede that they don’t “know” it. For, among other things, where did that little speck that explosively bloomed into the Big Bang come from?
I know it's false, as I know you have trouble dealing with fact and evidence.
 
Actually, if you were to study modern cosmology and quantum theory, it keeps drawing closer and closer to the inevitable conclusions of many religions, that the universe began in an unimaginable act of spontaneous creation and that there had to be a supreme conscious mind behind the creation of finite consciousness with a cosmic design, rather than the conscious mind and perfect design of the universe all somehow sprung from just a million million accidental collisions of random dust particles.
What “perfect design” do you see in in the universe?

The fact is, there is disorder and chaos and destruction within the universe, not order. Cataclysmic explosions of stars, asteroid / meteor impact, Black Holes that devour star systems etc., etc. and closer to home, floods, tsunami’s, earthquakes, etc., etc. Hardly the mark of a consistent, ordered universe or our planetary environment.

We live in a profoundly violent and chaotic universe, but are spared direct experience with most of that chaos because it occurs on cosmic and geologic time scales, while we exist on a human time scale. This (luckily for us) means most of us live our lifetimes in the brief moments of calm between supernovae, asteroid impact, and cometary bombardment.
 
Actually, if you were to study modern cosmology and quantum theory, it keeps drawing closer and closer to the inevitable conclusions of many religions, that the universe began in an unimaginable act of spontaneous creation and that there had to be a supreme conscious mind behind the creation of finite consciousness with a cosmic design, rather than the conscious mind and perfect design of the universe all somehow sprung from just a million million accidental collisions of random dust particles.
Actually, if you study religions. Most are syncretic in that they steal / borrow from earlier religions. Look at the association between the New and Old Testaments in Christianity. Where did the OT come from?

In his invention of islamism, Mo’ stole ruthlessly from both Christianity and Judaism, literally demoting Jesus to a “prophet” in the formulation of his new-fanged religion.
 
You don’t know that it’s false.

You may believe that it isn’t logical or that it’s unprovable.

Hell; you might even be right. But you certainly don’t “know” it.

Scientists also largely believe that everything that exists came into being due to a big bang. But most scientists tend to concede that they don’t “know” it. For, among other things, where did that little speck that explosively bloomed into the Big Bang come from?
The term “Big Bang ” used to describe the beginning of the universe is an artifact of the theory of general relativity. Solving the math resolves to a null value as the equations “break down”.
 
What “perfect design” do you see in in the universe?
The fact is, there is disorder and chaos and destruction within the universe, not order. Cataclysmic explosions of stars, asteroid / meteor impact, Black Holes that devour star systems etc., etc. and closer to home, floods, tsunami’s, earthquakes, etc., etc.

Yes, I know all of that, but it is all part of the bigger picture, birth, creation, maintenance and destruction. The balance of laws and order that allow all of this to happen, yet allow just the right conditions to balance out to see the most complex, wonderful, and delicate levels of organization to come together to allow the miracle of consciousness and self-awareness to occur. The universe is more than supernovas and colliding neutron stars, it is also love, compassion, beauty and wisdom.
 
Actually, if you study religions. Most are syncretic in that they steal / borrow from earlier religions.

It is all part of the evolution of ideas. If you want to study a religion, then why not look to the original religion, Vedic Science, where in books like the Srimad Bhagavatam, many of the things science is only realizing now about the universe were described 5,000 years ago. You see, you are looking at religion from an external locus as an observer treating it as if it were just manuscript on paper, your problem is that you haven't yet experienced it from an internal locus as a participant.

I understand how you think and feel because I've been there, I was a total atheist as a teen, a scientist who could see and understand everything without any need for religion, that is until religion (or at least faith and spirituality) took hold of me and I actually experienced what is otherwise only mere words in books and saw that it was real and actually deeper than the ocean.

Religion is one of those paradoxes in life--- you cannot see it until you are ready for it, yet you cannot be ready for it until you see it.

If you are a genuine seeker of knowledge and truth, then seek out this one book: It is called Be Here Now written by Dr. Richard Alpert (Baba Ram Dass). He was a professor friend of Dr. Timothy Leary. The best $17.00 you ever spent in your life.

 
Back
Top Bottom