Bush Castigates Iran, Calling Naval Confrontation ‘Provocative Act’

[Gunny]

The Iranians kept their distance. There was no attack. At most, they were just taunting and rattling their “sabers”. Shooting at them would not be warranted.



Your reaction would have probably resulted in many moderate Muslim groups putting their differences aside to unite against the America bully. It would have brought more enemies to compete against the USA in its “war on terrorism”. I am so glad that you were not at the helm.

Let’s not have another incident like:

Iran Air Flight 655

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

or the Ehime Maru and USS Greeneville collision

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehime_Maru_and_USS_Greeneville_collision

You're jumping to conclusions.

One, we don't know what their motives were.

And two, my statement was caveated with "if I felt threatened." That would be in the same position the Captain was in, not the same situation. Obviously, he made the right decision in this instance.

 

[mattskramer]

You're jumping to conclusions.

One, we don't know what their motives were.

And two, my statement was caveated with "if I felt threatened." That would be in the same position the Captain was in, not the same situation. Obviously, he made the right decision in this instance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

According to the US government, an inexperienced crew mistakenly identified the Iranian airbus as an attacking F-14 Tomcat fighter.

Oh. Okay. I guess that this justifies blowing the plane out of the sky. I found a mosquito in my house. I felt threatened by it. Mosquitoes carry diseases. I better fumigate the entire house for a week.

There is a condition of being over-reactive, being a loose cannon, having an itchy trigger finger.

 

[Gunny]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

According to the US government, an inexperienced crew mistakenly identified the Iranian airbus as an attacking F-14 Tomcat fighter.

Oh. Okay. I guess that this justifies blowing the plane out of the sky. I found a mosquito in my house. I felt threatened by it. Mosquitoes carry diseases. I better fumigate the entire house for a week.

There is a condition of being over-reactive, being a loose cannon, having an itchy trigger finger.

You're missing the point. That Captain is trained to make those decisions. I was trained to make those decisions. Every vet on this board has been trained to whatever level they have achieved, to make those decisions.

A Navy Captain in charge of a battle group, the equivalent of a Colonel in the other branches, is rarely going to be inexperienced.

It's really easy to sit back here and Monday morning quarterback something from the comfort of your living room. Try wearing those combat boots awhile and being the guy making the decisions. It's rarely as cut and dried as you would like for it to be.

 

[CSM]

How would you feel if Iranian frigates or destroyers were patrolling 30km off the coast of South Carolina or Florida or Texas?

Nice try...but at the moment no such thing is happening.

I sure as hell would not tempt fate by appearing to attack a fully armed frigate in a small boat such as we see in the video. Such an act would be provocation ... or stupidity.

However, when the day comes that Iran sends a few warships to patrol the coast of Florida I will most certainly advocate sinking the things with the biggest, baddest weapon available to the task...which, if we listen to those who would disarm and emasculate our military, just may well be a rowboat armed with two sailors carrying a single hand grenade. Then a gain, I'm sure the UN would most certainly prevent such a thing from happening....right?

 

[Shogun]

I showed the video to an ex-Navy buddy last night and the first words out of his mouth was something to the effect of, "Those dudes don't know how close they came to becoming fishfood. The Navy doesn't fuck around since the bombing of the Cole."


I am glad that confrontation was not escalated. There was nothing to prove and Im glad that we didn't play like a good marionette when someone teases our strings. That said, I would have liked to see warning shots fired to indicate an perimeter. Remember the Cole, indeed.

 

[Warner]

Yeah, they're muslims, so naturally they don't care if they get killed. They figured that it's all for Allah anyway, so they risked being blown to bits just to test the waters.

Makes perfect sense dude.

Paul,

I'm am sick of the obfuscationist on this board. Your post is trash.

Probing the perimeter and testing boundaries is standard military practice by all sides. They do it, we do it, everyone does it.

Why post such antagonistic drivel? All you're trying to do is derail this discussion into an argument. Please think about this before you post.

 

[Gunny]

Paul,

I'm am sick of the obfuscationist on this board. Your post is trash.

Probing the perimeter and testing boundaries is standard military practice by all sides. They do it, we do it, everyone does it.

Why post such antagonistic drivel? All you're trying to do is derail this discussion into an argument. Please think about this before you post.

I concur with your statement about probing, that's why I was a bit surprised this made the news, as I previously posted. Iranian gunboats always made sure we knoew they were skittering around whenever we went through the Strait. The difference being that in this case they faked a charge.

Whether or not they were Muslim is irrelevant to the incident, as you so "eloquently" pointed out. However, everyone is entitled to their opinion, agree with it or not.

 

[Gunny]

Yeah, they're muslims, so naturally they don't care if they get killed. They figured that it's all for Allah anyway, so they risked being blown to bits just to test the waters.

Makes perfect sense dude.

Warner has a point. Whether or not they are Muslims is irrelevant to this situation. At it's best, it's one military probing another. At worst, it's taunting; which, IMO, is the case here.

The skipper of the battle group is not thinking religion in such an incident, he's thinking threat to the vessels under his command.

 

[mattskramer]

That was not the question....I am asking you your opinion on exactly what circumstances it would be acceptable for the captain of the ship to fire on those boats...what are your limits? It is obvious that you do not believe the film shows those boats to have been enough of a threat to engage them...so at what point, in your opinion, would it be acceptable to you for the captain of the US vessel to engage the Iranian boats?

Okay. First, before I ever go out into the waters, I’d be sure to have someone who spoke the common Iranian languages. As the boats approached, I’d have the spokesman warn the boat drivers to stay away. If the drivers ignored the warning, and came within 50 feet, I’d shoot a warning shot (being sure to miss them) and tell them again to stay away. Only then, if they ignored the second warning and approached within 20 feet would I blow them out of the water.

 

[CSM]

Okay. First, before I ever go out into the waters, I’d be sure to have someone who spoke the common Iranian languages. As the boats approached, I’d have the spokesman warn the boat drivers to stay away. If the drivers ignored the warning, and came within 50 feet, I’d shoot a warning shot (being sure to miss them) and tell them again to stay away. Only then, if they ignored the second warning and approached within 20 feet would I blow them out of the water.

If they get within 20 feet, then you are a dead man. At 50 feet, a hell of a lot of your crew are going to be killed or wounded. That being said, how long do you think it takes one of those little boats to travel 30 feet? Also, at 50 feet, that little boat is likely below the minimum suppression level of your ship's guns.

 

[Warner]

Okay. First, before I ever go out into the waters, I’d be sure to have someone who spoke the common Iranian languages. As the boats approached, I’d have the spokesman warn the boat drivers to stay away. If the drivers ignored the warning, and came within 50 feet, I’d shoot a warning shot (being sure to miss them) and tell them again to stay away. Only then, if they ignored the second warning and approached within 20 feet would I blow them out of the water.

And if they were indeed attacking you'd likely have dead sailors and a court martial to deal with.

I don't think you understand the range of modern weapons, even rather primitive ones, nor have a grasp of relative speeds and rates of closure. By the time the boat gets 50' away if it is going to attack it is going to succeed. At even 25 knots the boat is traveling over 40' per second. If it is going in the opposite direction of the Destroyer which is also making 25 knots, that means it would close those 50' in about 1/2 second. And that assumes the attack is a ramming attack - what if there is a one time launch (destroying the boat) very short range rocket or torpedo of some kind built into the boat?

Not only that, but when those boats get to within less than 100' or so you'd only be able to use small arms against them. Destroyers are not generally made to fire on targets that close, the weapons cannot aim down that steeply.

Realistically, 1000 feet is a reasonable limit for boats of this nature. If they come within 1000 feet warning shots would be fired. If those shots are not immediately heeded the boats should be destroyed.

 

[Shogun]

Degrees of Confidence on U.S.-Iran Naval Incident
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/20...5fafeb6410b481&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

 

[mattskramer]

And if they were indeed attacking you'd likely have dead sailors and a court martial to deal with.

I don't think you understand the range of modern weapons, even rather primitive ones, nor have a grasp of relative speeds and rates of closure. By the time the boat gets 50' away if it is going to attack it is going to succeed. At even 25 knots the boat is traveling over 40' per second. If it is going in the opposite direction of the Destroyer which is also making 25 knots, that means it would close those 50' in about 1/2 second. And that assumes the attack is a ramming attack - what if there is a one time launch (destroying the boat) very short range rocket or torpedo of some kind built into the boat?

Not only that, but when those boats get to within less than 100' or so you'd only be able to use small arms against them. Destroyers are not generally made to fire on targets that close, the weapons cannot aim down that steeply.

Realistically, 1000 feet is a reasonable limit for boats of this nature. If they come within 1000 feet warning shots would be fired. If those shots are not immediately heeded the boats should be destroyed.

Okay. I don’t know ship hull thickness and weapon power. My principle still applies but I’ll change the numbers. Wow! 1000 feet seem to be very far away. I’d give the first warning at 600 feet, the second warning at 500 feet, and shoot them at 400 feet.

 

[CSM]

Okay. I don’t know ship hull thickness and weapon power. My principle still applies but I’ll change the numbers. Wow! 1000 feet seem to be very far away. I’d give the first warning at 600 feet, the second warning at 500 feet, and shoot them at 400 feet.

And again, you would be too late. Depending on what that little boat is carrying, the lethal blast radius could be quite significant (accompanied by an even larger damage radius). Of course, the captain of the ship has no way of knowing what that boat is carrying either, so would have to take that into consideration. Worst case, 1000 feet could even be too late.

 

[CSM]

I am admittedly no explosives expert but I seem to remember that for 50 pounds of C-4 or SEMTEX, the "safe" distance is around 1100 feet. For a charge over 500 pounds, the safe distance is something like 300 feet times the cubed root of the number of pounds of explosives.

In any case, the captain of that ship is charged with safeguarding his vessel and all aboard. It is not about the ship's hull thickness or weapons capability; it is about how much damage is that attacking boat capable of inflicting. By the way, 500 pounds of C-4 or other explosive is not as large a quantity as you may think it is. I suspect such quantities are easily obtainable in some countries (like Iran) in the Middle East.

 

[DeadCanDance]

"Bush Castigates Iran, Calling Naval Confrontation ‘Provocative Act’


More fear-mongering, war mongering, assumptions, and exaggerated threats, evidently

NAVY TIMES: ‘Filipino Monkey’ may be behind radio threats, ship drivers say

By Andrew Scutro and David Brown
Posted : Friday Jan 11, 2008 17:24:25 EST

The threatening radio transmission heard at the end of a video showing harassing maneuvers by Iranian patrol boats in the Strait of Hormuz may have come from a locally famous heckler known among ship drivers as the “Filipino Monkey.”

Since the Jan. 6 incident was announced to the public a day later, the U.S. Navy has said it’s unclear where the voice came from. In the videotape released by the Pentagon on Jan. 8, the screen goes black at the very end and the voice can be heard, distancing it from the scenes on the water.

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2008/01/navy_hormuz_iran_radio_080111/

Doubts grow over Iranian boat threats

Pentagon climbs down over 'you will explode' video--Mystery remains over where voice came from

Ed Pilkington New York
Friday January 11, 2008
The Guardian

Doubts intensified last night over the nature of an alleged aggressive confrontation by Iranian patrol boats and American warships in the Persian Gulf on Sunday, after Pentagon officials admitted that they could not confirm that a threat to blow up the US ships had been made directly by the Iranian crews involved in the incident.

Several news sources reported that senior navy officials had conceded that the voice threatening to blow up the US warships in a matter of minutes could have come from another ship in the region, or even from shore...........snip

On Tuesday, the US administration released video footage that it said showed the Iranian speedboats harassing the American vessels. A voice in English with a strong accent was heard to say: "I am coming at you - you will explode in a couple of minutes."

The voice of the Iranian sailor in Tehran's footage was different to the deeper and more menacing voice, threatening to blow up the warships in the US version. Nor was there any sign of aggressive behaviour by the Iranian patrol boats.

snip

But the mystery remains of where the voice that apparently threatened to bomb the US ships came from. The Pentagon has said that it recorded the film and the sound separately, and then stitched them together - a dubious piece of editing even before it became known that the source of the voice could not, with certainty, be linked to the Iranian patrol boats.

A post on the New York Times news blog yesterday from a former naval officer with experience of these waters said that the radio frequency used in the Strait of Hormuz was regularly polluted with interfering chatter, somewhat like CB radio. "My first thought was that the 'explode' comment might not have come from one of the Iranian craft, but some loser monitoring the events at a shore facility."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,2239119,00.html

 

[maineman]

none of us know the rules of engagement that are presently in place in the operating area. knowledge of previous rules of engagement is pretty much irrelevant. I am sure that the skippers of the ships in question were well aware of the ROE's in place and acted accordingly. the navy has been dealing effectively and appropriately with agressive and confrontational acts on the part of other country's naval vessels for a long time. the fact that no shots were fired is a testament to the training of our units and a testament to the relatively non-eventful nature of this confrontation.

 

[Taomon]

Just another fabrication of intelligence to go to war with Iran: http://existentialistcowboy.blogspot.com/2008/01/bush-promises-to-nuke-iran.html

 

[Psychoblues]

Please allow me to repeat the link and the truth about all this.

Just another fabrication of intelligence to go to war with Iran: http://existentialistcowboy.blogspot.com/2008/01/bush-promises-to-nuke-iran.html

Check the quote, cowgirls.

 

[CSM]

Just another fabrication of intelligence to go to war with Iran: http://existentialistcowboy.blogspot.com/2008/01/bush-promises-to-nuke-iran.html

There is fabrication on that web page but it sure isn't intelligence!