Zone1 Can you be both a Catholic and an abortionist? (Poll)

[kyzr]

If you ban abortions you are most certainly forcing others to be virtuous.

Forcing a mother and father to take responsibility for creating a human life is hardly "virtuous".
If circumstances are difficult, the baby should be put up for adoption, also not "virtuous".
My arguments here are regarding Catholic politicians who are pro-choice and claim to be Catholic, like Biden and Pelosi.
I believe that the Church needs to be more pro-life than they are currently.
If abortions are "legal" state by state, women who have them need to live with their decision, as you say, that is between them and God.

 

[ding]

1. We're not talking about a "minor theological disagreement", we're talking about infanticide. IMHO pro-choice politicians should be excommunicated from the Church. Infanticide is a totally unacceptable, period.

2. God will judge women who have had abortions.

3. Those women need to live with their decision. Forgiveness and healing aren't mine to give. If you know abortion is wrong, why are you arguing that it is good political policy? Is getting women's votes the ultimate goal, not human life?

4. Christ could forgive them. That doesn't make abortion any less a taking of a human life.

5. Your argument is that abortions are okay because we all know that Christ is merciful and everything will be forgiven. That is a specious argument. God the Father is the ultimate judge.

6. Making stupid arguments is not against Church teaching so no need to Excommunicate dumbass misguided souls.

I understand all that. It doesn't change anything I said.

 

[ding]

Forcing a mother and father to take responsibility for creating a human life is hardly "virtuous".
If circumstances are difficult, the baby should be put up for adoption, also not "virtuous".
My arguments here are regarding Catholic politicians who are pro-choice and claim to be Catholic, like Biden and Pelosi.
I believe that the Church needs to be more pro-life than they are currently.
If abortions are "legal" state by state, women who have them need to live with their decision, as you say, that is between them and God.

It seems political for you.

 

[kyzr]

If God grants man free will who are you to take that away?
Isn't that between God and them?

You missed the point of the post. Try again:

"True, but the Church needs to enforce God's Laws against baby killers.
If a politician enables the killing of babies, that politician should NOT receive the sacraments.
That the Church does NOT Excommunicate pro-choice politicians shows that the church tacitly approves their behavior."

 

[kyzr]

I understand all that. It doesn't change anything I said.

What you said is that God is merciful so abortions are no big deal. I call bullshit.

 

[kyzr]

It seems political for you.

Abortions are regulated, so yes it is political, very political.
Democrat politicians need to support unrestricted abortions or they get defeated by women voters.
My comments are related to the Church, as in, should the Church hold Catholic politicians to a higher standard such that they cannot be pro-choice and remain Catholic? The Church seems to be oblivious to pro-choice Catholic politicians.

 

[ding]

Abortions are regulated, so yes it is political, very political.
Democrat politicians need to support unrestricted abortions or they get defeated by women voters.
My comments are related to the Church, as in, should the Church hold Catholic politicians to a higher standard such that they cannot be pro-choice and remain Catholic? The Church seems to be oblivious to pro-choice Catholic politicians.

It's not political for me. The politics are the problem.

 

[ding]

What you said is that God is merciful so abortions are no big deal. I call bullshit.

That's not what I said at all.

 

[Meriweather]

True, but the Church needs to enforce God's Laws against baby killers.
If a politician enables the killing of babies, that politician should NOT receive the sacraments.
That the Church does NOT Excommunicate pro-choice politicians shows that the church tacitly approves their behavior.

I have a different perspective. First, politicians should be confined to running the nation. This includes protecting the nation's borders, transportation, trade with other nations. This excludes fake political issues such as climate change and it also excludes personal matters such as abortion and where one chooses to send children to school.

I understand your position that abortion should be against the law, but I believe the better position is to take abortion completely outside the purview of government. Because...if we give government the authority to make abortion against the law, we have also given government the authority to place abortion within the law pronouncing it not only okay, but preferable in many cases. When government authority announces something is okay (such as abortion, no-fault divorce, etc.) it is fact that two-thirds of the population will go along with what authority says simply because it is the authority. This is what puts those of us who favor life in the minority--we lack authority.

Science confirms life begins at conception. When it is up to each individual to decide whether or not to take a life, most will not. Most will not torture another person either...unless, as Milgram's experiment showed years ago, someone in authority tells them that torturing was the right thing to do. Then, two-thirds of those will torture as directed.

My position is the government has no right to say abortion is okay, or for that matter, not okay. Abortion has nothing to do with protecting the nation's borders, regulating a nation's trade, or a nation's transportation. The Federal Government's purpose is to run the nation, not people's personal lives. There is no need for government to become involved in marriage, divorce, bearing/raising/schooling children as those are all personal, not national matters. I believe the better fight is to keep our national government out of ALL our personal matters, and for people to run their own personal lives according to their own faith, values, and ethics.

 

[kyzr]

I have a different perspective. First, politicians should be confined to running the nation. This includes protecting the nation's borders, transportation, trade with other nations. This excludes fake political issues such as climate change and it also excludes personal matters such as abortion and where one chooses to send children to school.

I understand your position that abortion should be against the law, but I believe the better position is to take abortion completely outside the purview of government. Because...if we give government the authority to make abortion against the law, we have also given government the authority to place abortion within the law pronouncing it not only okay, but preferable in many cases. When government authority announces something is okay (such as abortion, no-fault divorce, etc.) it is fact that two-thirds of the population will go along with what authority says simply because it is the authority. This is what puts those of us who favor life in the minority--we lack authority.

Science confirms life begins at conception. When it is up to each individual to decide whether or not to take a life, most will not. Most will not torture another person either...unless, as Milgram's experiment showed years ago, someone in authority tells them that torturing was the right thing to do. Then, two-thirds of those will torture as directed.

My position is the government has no right to say abortion is okay, or for that matter, not okay. Abortion has nothing to do with protecting the nation's borders, regulating a nation's trade, or a nation's transportation. The Federal Government's purpose is to run the nation, not people's personal lives. There is no need for government to become involved in marriage, divorce, bearing/raising/schooling children as those are all personal, not national matters. I believe the better fight is to keep our national government out of ALL our personal matters, and for people to run their own personal lives according to their own faith, values, and ethics.

1. Abortion is not a "personal matter". It is a legal matter, infanticide, in the case of unrestricted late term abortion, such as "partial birth abortion".

2. I am not saying abortion should be illegal. I'm saying that reasonable limits on legality, such as the 16-weeks in the EU is a compromise. That said, as a Catholic, I want the church to enforce church law on "Catholic" politicians. It burns me when I see pols like Biden and Pelosi promote unrestricted abortions while touting their "Catholic" faith. If you're pro-choice, fine, but don't say you're Catholic.

3. We disagree that government has a responsibility to regulate abortions. For example, if "the government" decides to implement a "one child" policy and abortions are forced, that would be opposed by most people.