Capital Punishment

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Can you name a single instance in which taxpayers were able to opt out of funding something they didn't like? I'm not saying it never happened, I'm just saying I've never heard of it.

With religion, we have a choice to fund the religions of our choice.
With businesses, we have the freedom to patronize the businesses of our choice.
I guess you can name car insurance as a choice: at least one state has the option to
prove ability to pay as an alternative to buying car insurance.
And all people have a choice not to buy or own a car so you are not forced to pay for insurance.

With states, we have the right to move to a state that has the tax laws we agree to follow
and get away from states that charge more or charge for things we don't agree to pay for with our taxes.

Both church organizations and now certain businesses
successfully sued not to fund certain abortifacient drugs, and were allowed to qualify for exemption
from federal requirements based on religious grounds.

On our tax forms we have the choice to fund campaigns or not.

We have the choice to use alternative currency legally instead of federal reserve notes
if we follow certain rules to make sure this is done legally.

We choose whether or how much to give to USO and other nonprofits that help Vets
that are outside govt mandates to pay so much of our taxes into the military.

There are many different levels where we exercise freedom to fund what we believe in
and not impose this on other people. This is a natural law, where people naturally seek to support what we believe in.

Ok, so the thing you're proposing has never successfully been implemented and even the choices you list aren't really choices. Sure on paper I can pick up my family and move away from the rest of our family, but in reality that's not going to happen. I'm stuck here in Idaho and my taxes will continue to be used for whatever legislation holds sway in Idaho and in this country. Church organizations don't pay taxes and if any business has successfully exempted itself from taxation to fund functions of government, I'm sure that would have been all over the news. I'd sure like a link because I really don't think there's a precedent for what you're pushing for, so it sounds like wasted effort.

Hi saintmichaeldefendthem
And people who fought for abolition and Civil Rights were up against the masses also.
They had to start somewhere, BEFORE any such thing as abolition of slavery was ever done by precedent.

Blacks got their rights to vote before women did. Those battles had to be separated in order to win
because people couldn't handle them being combined as Equal Human Rights.

SaintM if we waited on things to be done by precedent,
how would Einstein every introduce new knowledge?
How would Edison invent the light bulb if it had never been done before?

If you of such little faith have such little faith,
I'm glad to start with ChrisL and let her be the Rosa Parks here who is just tired and doesn't want to pay for executions
when those millions of dollars per capital case could be paying for health care and preventative treatment to stop crime
and especially murder.

There are whole groups across the country lobbying for criminal justice reform and Restorative Justice.

Maybe we need to tie it to a campaign to teach that Restorative Justice IS Christ Jesus fulfilling secular laws.

I am happy to ask my friends with 2-3 abolition groups
to help me and Chris petition the Catholic church to work with Mexican prisons
that don't have the death penalty to set up a prisoner exchange program that
we can fund as an equal choice, where people can choose deportation for life over executions.

I am happy to lobby Ted Cruz, Ted Poe and other leaders open to innovative solutions
to help form a task force to write out international laws on how this exchange can be done legally.

Even Arnold Schwarzenegger envisioned similar plans to redevelop prisons along the border
to address immigration and prison costs at the same time:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/cal.../schwarzenegger-send-prisoners-to-mexico.html
Schwarzenegger Build prisons in Mexico

This is a unifying solution, and would solve several problems at once.

if nothing else, if you have faith that where two or three agree and pray in Christ Jesus
for anything touching the earth, it is done by our father in heaven, then as long as this is God's will then it is done.
If it isn't God's will, then whatever is, we agree to receive that also. For sake of Jesus or Justice for all.

I'm not trying to be your enemy here, I just hate to see effort wasted that could be better spent. And I also think that ChrisL was being polite. Notice she said she was too busy right now. Polite.

Do you remember how Christians ended the Gladiator events? They protested it, even some allowing themselves to be martyred, torn apart by lions to show the inhumanity of it. Eventually the gladiators fell into disfavor and the practice was discontinued. Christians are most effective when creating a culture of life to combat the culture of death. We demonstrate the philosophical conflict in being anti abortion yet supporting the death penalty, as many Christians do.

So no, I'm not shooting down your idea and doing nothing. We find other ways to be the fragrance of life in a society that holds life cheap, who cheers when a woman is starved to death by having her feeding tube removed, and who thinks abortion is a right.

And another thing is, I don't think we do our cause any favors by demonizing capital punishment. It was instituted by God himself centuries before the Torah was given on Mt. Sinai as the very backbone of human criminal justice. It goes all the way back to Noah. One cannot vilify capital punishment without vilifying God who established it to begin with. Capital punishment is not evil and it's not injustice, and our insinuation that it is just infuriates people and drives them away. When a murderer is put to death, no wrong has been committed nor is their any cause for complaint.

This debate isn't about good vs evil like it is for abortion, the taking of INNOCENT life, this is about what's just and what's better, or better put, justice and mercy. Justice is never wrong, but mercy is better. God would be just to condemn all of humanity, but instead sent his Son Jesus Christ to provide a bridge of mercy. And we, the recipients of mercy, ought by all right be advocates of mercy. And if we can give somebody a lifetime in prison to come to terms with the life they stole and repent, then why wouldn't we?

But now you know why I'm not enthusiastic about being combative toward capital punishment. It isn't an intrinsic evil that I must battle for the sake of righteousness, it's a practice rooted in the Old Covenant, outmoded for justice has been satisfied by mercy and we are its sons.

Well that's not true. I really have been quite preoccupied lately with the blizzards and terrible weather we've been having around here, being busy with work, amongst other more personal matters. I just haven't had the time to really give it a lot of thought. I also wonder if our representatives really ever listen to us if there isn't something "in it" for them. So I might be a bit skeptical about it.

There's a lot of good ways to promote the cause for life, but this isn't one of them. We just established here that there's no precedent for taxpayers being able to opt out of paying taxes for things they object to. How could anyone calculate how much of one's taxes actually went to enforcing the death penalty? That's a dead end cause and politicians won't give it any thought because it simply doesn't work, not because they aren't listening. I know my representatives listen to me, staying in constant contact with them by email.

What's even more unfortunate is what actually does work. States have only gotten rid of their death penalty statutes after an innocent person was executed or an execution was botched. That's the only thing that really seems to wake people up to this barbaric practice.

 

[ChrisL]

With religion, we have a choice to fund the religions of our choice.
With businesses, we have the freedom to patronize the businesses of our choice.
I guess you can name car insurance as a choice: at least one state has the option to
prove ability to pay as an alternative to buying car insurance.
And all people have a choice not to buy or own a car so you are not forced to pay for insurance.

With states, we have the right to move to a state that has the tax laws we agree to follow
and get away from states that charge more or charge for things we don't agree to pay for with our taxes.

Both church organizations and now certain businesses
successfully sued not to fund certain abortifacient drugs, and were allowed to qualify for exemption
from federal requirements based on religious grounds.

On our tax forms we have the choice to fund campaigns or not.

We have the choice to use alternative currency legally instead of federal reserve notes
if we follow certain rules to make sure this is done legally.

We choose whether or how much to give to USO and other nonprofits that help Vets
that are outside govt mandates to pay so much of our taxes into the military.

There are many different levels where we exercise freedom to fund what we believe in
and not impose this on other people. This is a natural law, where people naturally seek to support what we believe in.

Ok, so the thing you're proposing has never successfully been implemented and even the choices you list aren't really choices. Sure on paper I can pick up my family and move away from the rest of our family, but in reality that's not going to happen. I'm stuck here in Idaho and my taxes will continue to be used for whatever legislation holds sway in Idaho and in this country. Church organizations don't pay taxes and if any business has successfully exempted itself from taxation to fund functions of government, I'm sure that would have been all over the news. I'd sure like a link because I really don't think there's a precedent for what you're pushing for, so it sounds like wasted effort.

Hi saintmichaeldefendthem
And people who fought for abolition and Civil Rights were up against the masses also.
They had to start somewhere, BEFORE any such thing as abolition of slavery was ever done by precedent.

Blacks got their rights to vote before women did. Those battles had to be separated in order to win
because people couldn't handle them being combined as Equal Human Rights.

SaintM if we waited on things to be done by precedent,
how would Einstein every introduce new knowledge?
How would Edison invent the light bulb if it had never been done before?

If you of such little faith have such little faith,
I'm glad to start with ChrisL and let her be the Rosa Parks here who is just tired and doesn't want to pay for executions
when those millions of dollars per capital case could be paying for health care and preventative treatment to stop crime
and especially murder.

There are whole groups across the country lobbying for criminal justice reform and Restorative Justice.

Maybe we need to tie it to a campaign to teach that Restorative Justice IS Christ Jesus fulfilling secular laws.

I am happy to ask my friends with 2-3 abolition groups
to help me and Chris petition the Catholic church to work with Mexican prisons
that don't have the death penalty to set up a prisoner exchange program that
we can fund as an equal choice, where people can choose deportation for life over executions.

I am happy to lobby Ted Cruz, Ted Poe and other leaders open to innovative solutions
to help form a task force to write out international laws on how this exchange can be done legally.

Even Arnold Schwarzenegger envisioned similar plans to redevelop prisons along the border
to address immigration and prison costs at the same time:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/cal.../schwarzenegger-send-prisoners-to-mexico.html
Schwarzenegger Build prisons in Mexico

This is a unifying solution, and would solve several problems at once.

if nothing else, if you have faith that where two or three agree and pray in Christ Jesus
for anything touching the earth, it is done by our father in heaven, then as long as this is God's will then it is done.
If it isn't God's will, then whatever is, we agree to receive that also. For sake of Jesus or Justice for all.

I'm not trying to be your enemy here, I just hate to see effort wasted that could be better spent. And I also think that ChrisL was being polite. Notice she said she was too busy right now. Polite.

Do you remember how Christians ended the Gladiator events? They protested it, even some allowing themselves to be martyred, torn apart by lions to show the inhumanity of it. Eventually the gladiators fell into disfavor and the practice was discontinued. Christians are most effective when creating a culture of life to combat the culture of death. We demonstrate the philosophical conflict in being anti abortion yet supporting the death penalty, as many Christians do.

So no, I'm not shooting down your idea and doing nothing. We find other ways to be the fragrance of life in a society that holds life cheap, who cheers when a woman is starved to death by having her feeding tube removed, and who thinks abortion is a right.

And another thing is, I don't think we do our cause any favors by demonizing capital punishment. It was instituted by God himself centuries before the Torah was given on Mt. Sinai as the very backbone of human criminal justice. It goes all the way back to Noah. One cannot vilify capital punishment without vilifying God who established it to begin with. Capital punishment is not evil and it's not injustice, and our insinuation that it is just infuriates people and drives them away. When a murderer is put to death, no wrong has been committed nor is their any cause for complaint.

This debate isn't about good vs evil like it is for abortion, the taking of INNOCENT life, this is about what's just and what's better, or better put, justice and mercy. Justice is never wrong, but mercy is better. God would be just to condemn all of humanity, but instead sent his Son Jesus Christ to provide a bridge of mercy. And we, the recipients of mercy, ought by all right be advocates of mercy. And if we can give somebody a lifetime in prison to come to terms with the life they stole and repent, then why wouldn't we?

But now you know why I'm not enthusiastic about being combative toward capital punishment. It isn't an intrinsic evil that I must battle for the sake of righteousness, it's a practice rooted in the Old Covenant, outmoded for justice has been satisfied by mercy and we are its sons.

Well that's not true. I really have been quite preoccupied lately with the blizzards and terrible weather we've been having around here, being busy with work, amongst other more personal matters. I just haven't had the time to really give it a lot of thought. I also wonder if our representatives really ever listen to us if there isn't something "in it" for them. So I might be a bit skeptical about it.

There's a lot of good ways to promote the cause for life, but this isn't one of them. We just established here that there's no precedent for taxpayers being able to opt out of paying taxes for things they object to. How could anyone calculate how much of one's taxes actually went to enforcing the death penalty? That's a dead end cause and politicians won't give it any thought because it simply doesn't work, not because they aren't listening. I know my representatives listen to me, staying in constant contact with them by email.

What's even more unfortunate is what actually does work. States have only gotten rid of their death penalty statutes after an innocent person was executed or an execution was botched. That's the only thing that really seems to wake people up to this barbaric practice.

Hmm. I've always thought that the government should have to be accountable for how and where and how much of our tax dollars are spent. I think they need an accountant and more transparency. It would be nice to know exactly how much and where the money goes.

 

[emilynghiem]

With religion, we have a choice to fund the religions of our choice.
With businesses, we have the freedom to patronize the businesses of our choice.
I guess you can name car insurance as a choice: at least one state has the option to
prove ability to pay as an alternative to buying car insurance.
And all people have a choice not to buy or own a car so you are not forced to pay for insurance.

With states, we have the right to move to a state that has the tax laws we agree to follow
and get away from states that charge more or charge for things we don't agree to pay for with our taxes.

Both church organizations and now certain businesses
successfully sued not to fund certain abortifacient drugs, and were allowed to qualify for exemption
from federal requirements based on religious grounds.

On our tax forms we have the choice to fund campaigns or not.

We have the choice to use alternative currency legally instead of federal reserve notes
if we follow certain rules to make sure this is done legally.

We choose whether or how much to give to USO and other nonprofits that help Vets
that are outside govt mandates to pay so much of our taxes into the military.

There are many different levels where we exercise freedom to fund what we believe in
and not impose this on other people. This is a natural law, where people naturally seek to support what we believe in.

Ok, so the thing you're proposing has never successfully been implemented and even the choices you list aren't really choices. Sure on paper I can pick up my family and move away from the rest of our family, but in reality that's not going to happen. I'm stuck here in Idaho and my taxes will continue to be used for whatever legislation holds sway in Idaho and in this country. Church organizations don't pay taxes and if any business has successfully exempted itself from taxation to fund functions of government, I'm sure that would have been all over the news. I'd sure like a link because I really don't think there's a precedent for what you're pushing for, so it sounds like wasted effort.

Hi saintmichaeldefendthem
And people who fought for abolition and Civil Rights were up against the masses also.
They had to start somewhere, BEFORE any such thing as abolition of slavery was ever done by precedent.

Blacks got their rights to vote before women did. Those battles had to be separated in order to win
because people couldn't handle them being combined as Equal Human Rights.

SaintM if we waited on things to be done by precedent,
how would Einstein every introduce new knowledge?
How would Edison invent the light bulb if it had never been done before?

If you of such little faith have such little faith,
I'm glad to start with ChrisL and let her be the Rosa Parks here who is just tired and doesn't want to pay for executions
when those millions of dollars per capital case could be paying for health care and preventative treatment to stop crime
and especially murder.

There are whole groups across the country lobbying for criminal justice reform and Restorative Justice.

Maybe we need to tie it to a campaign to teach that Restorative Justice IS Christ Jesus fulfilling secular laws.

I am happy to ask my friends with 2-3 abolition groups
to help me and Chris petition the Catholic church to work with Mexican prisons
that don't have the death penalty to set up a prisoner exchange program that
we can fund as an equal choice, where people can choose deportation for life over executions.

I am happy to lobby Ted Cruz, Ted Poe and other leaders open to innovative solutions
to help form a task force to write out international laws on how this exchange can be done legally.

Even Arnold Schwarzenegger envisioned similar plans to redevelop prisons along the border
to address immigration and prison costs at the same time:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/cal.../schwarzenegger-send-prisoners-to-mexico.html
Schwarzenegger Build prisons in Mexico

This is a unifying solution, and would solve several problems at once.

if nothing else, if you have faith that where two or three agree and pray in Christ Jesus
for anything touching the earth, it is done by our father in heaven, then as long as this is God's will then it is done.
If it isn't God's will, then whatever is, we agree to receive that also. For sake of Jesus or Justice for all.

I'm not trying to be your enemy here, I just hate to see effort wasted that could be better spent. And I also think that ChrisL was being polite. Notice she said she was too busy right now. Polite.

Do you remember how Christians ended the Gladiator events? They protested it, even some allowing themselves to be martyred, torn apart by lions to show the inhumanity of it. Eventually the gladiators fell into disfavor and the practice was discontinued. Christians are most effective when creating a culture of life to combat the culture of death. We demonstrate the philosophical conflict in being anti abortion yet supporting the death penalty, as many Christians do.

So no, I'm not shooting down your idea and doing nothing. We find other ways to be the fragrance of life in a society that holds life cheap, who cheers when a woman is starved to death by having her feeding tube removed, and who thinks abortion is a right.

And another thing is, I don't think we do our cause any favors by demonizing capital punishment. It was instituted by God himself centuries before the Torah was given on Mt. Sinai as the very backbone of human criminal justice. It goes all the way back to Noah. One cannot vilify capital punishment without vilifying God who established it to begin with. Capital punishment is not evil and it's not injustice, and our insinuation that it is just infuriates people and drives them away. When a murderer is put to death, no wrong has been committed nor is their any cause for complaint.

This debate isn't about good vs evil like it is for abortion, the taking of INNOCENT life, this is about what's just and what's better, or better put, justice and mercy. Justice is never wrong, but mercy is better. God would be just to condemn all of humanity, but instead sent his Son Jesus Christ to provide a bridge of mercy. And we, the recipients of mercy, ought by all right be advocates of mercy. And if we can give somebody a lifetime in prison to come to terms with the life they stole and repent, then why wouldn't we?

But now you know why I'm not enthusiastic about being combative toward capital punishment. It isn't an intrinsic evil that I must battle for the sake of righteousness, it's a practice rooted in the Old Covenant, outmoded for justice has been satisfied by mercy and we are its sons.

Well that's not true. I really have been quite preoccupied lately with the blizzards and terrible weather we've been having around here, being busy with work, amongst other more personal matters. I just haven't had the time to really give it a lot of thought. I also wonder if our representatives really ever listen to us if there isn't something "in it" for them. So I might be a bit skeptical about it.

There's a lot of good ways to promote the cause for life, but this isn't one of them. We just established here that there's no precedent for taxpayers being able to opt out of paying taxes for things they object to. How could anyone calculate how much of one's taxes actually went to enforcing the death penalty? That's a dead end cause and politicians won't give it any thought because it simply doesn't work, not because they aren't listening. I know my representatives listen to me, staying in constant contact with them by email.

What's even more unfortunate is what actually does work. States have only gotten rid of their death penalty statutes after an innocent person was executed or an execution was botched. That's the only thing that really seems to wake people up to this barbaric practice.

Hi saintmichaeldefendthem
the solution may be right under our noses
currently the Democrats have pushed to set up these federal exchanges

These can be reworked to register immigrant applicants and people
who have been convicted of crimes who owe restitution through the state.
instead of forcing regulations and restriction on law abiding citizens,
who committed no crimes where govt has no authorization to deprive liberties.

As for people like Chris, me and others who believe in Restorative Justice,
we can start by asking help for investing in prison programs that provide rehab, recovery, restitution and medical treatment services. Since the Democrats wrote in their platform to abolish the Death Penalty, Democrat donors and candidates who want to prove their leadership skills would be a good start, to hit on the Democrat sponsors who invest millions in campaigns and can use this to feature future leaders as heading the reforms.

We take each capital case and mediate to form a consensus on resolving it, to preserve resources and work out meaningful restitution where all parties agree. (if not, if they want to use the current system, that remains the default option.) Cases where all the people agree on alternatives, we can agree to take on those cases and work out the costs where the people who committed the crimes, or the people willing to fund alternatives, cover those costs through a restitution program. It can involve microlending until the people who did the damages can pay back their debts. The traffickers and gangs who owe restitution for violence along the border can work for life to set up programs there. (if you think this is far-fetched, I know nonprofit groups already working with former gang members on community outreach, who share this same vision of working in teams to take on the border issues of drug and human trafficking. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, but taking the wheels and car parts already out there, and asking to assemble the whole machine where these parts work together as designed.)

We prove that it works first, that meaningful proportional restitution encourages wrongdoers to cooperate and participate in corrections. Then public policy can follow based on what is proven to work cost effectively.

The mistake the Obama administration made is not proving their solutions work before mandating them by laws. We can fix that by applying mandates to the criminal justice systems by state, and work out ways to pay for health care by crediting back the taxpayers for money currently wasted on failed prisons that cost more and more and don't solve the problems but make them worse. By investing in solutions that prevent crime by treating and correcting the causes of mental and criminal illness, and enabling wrongdoers to become productive and pay back restitution and costs to taxpayers for their crimes, we can eventually not only pay back these debts but operate in the black and produce more work and services that can cover the populations in need instead of operating at deficit and punishing law abiding taxpayers for the costs.

Medical education and internships would be part of the mental health and prison reforms, so we would invest in developing more service providers and facilities. That makes more sense to invest in that development rather than forcing taxpayers to invest in insurance companies that don't provide actual services or train medical professionals. Reforming the VA can also streamline the medical facilities and make sure these are run cost effectively instead of being a nightmare of bureaucracy.

this reform is needed anyway, so we might as well call it for what it is, and start organizing the leadership willing to take it on and reform these institutions that are wasting taxpayer resources without providing the proper services. I would encourage political candidates to work with Veteran groups and start creating jobs for Vets and future leaders/candidates to fix these problems, invest in that work instead of funding empty media campaigns, and even televise and broadcast the solutions these leaders come up with as publicity.
==============================
Sonny Clark ^ is any of this language usable in a letter to the Allen West Foundation?
You have my permission to take any of this and edit it to explain to Ted Cruz, Ted Poe, or anyone else you think we should petition to reform the federal exchanges to localize per state.

 

[ChrisL]

Ok, so the thing you're proposing has never successfully been implemented and even the choices you list aren't really choices. Sure on paper I can pick up my family and move away from the rest of our family, but in reality that's not going to happen. I'm stuck here in Idaho and my taxes will continue to be used for whatever legislation holds sway in Idaho and in this country. Church organizations don't pay taxes and if any business has successfully exempted itself from taxation to fund functions of government, I'm sure that would have been all over the news. I'd sure like a link because I really don't think there's a precedent for what you're pushing for, so it sounds like wasted effort.

Hi saintmichaeldefendthem
And people who fought for abolition and Civil Rights were up against the masses also.
They had to start somewhere, BEFORE any such thing as abolition of slavery was ever done by precedent.

Blacks got their rights to vote before women did. Those battles had to be separated in order to win
because people couldn't handle them being combined as Equal Human Rights.

SaintM if we waited on things to be done by precedent,
how would Einstein every introduce new knowledge?
How would Edison invent the light bulb if it had never been done before?

If you of such little faith have such little faith,
I'm glad to start with ChrisL and let her be the Rosa Parks here who is just tired and doesn't want to pay for executions
when those millions of dollars per capital case could be paying for health care and preventative treatment to stop crime
and especially murder.

There are whole groups across the country lobbying for criminal justice reform and Restorative Justice.

Maybe we need to tie it to a campaign to teach that Restorative Justice IS Christ Jesus fulfilling secular laws.

I am happy to ask my friends with 2-3 abolition groups
to help me and Chris petition the Catholic church to work with Mexican prisons
that don't have the death penalty to set up a prisoner exchange program that
we can fund as an equal choice, where people can choose deportation for life over executions.

I am happy to lobby Ted Cruz, Ted Poe and other leaders open to innovative solutions
to help form a task force to write out international laws on how this exchange can be done legally.

Even Arnold Schwarzenegger envisioned similar plans to redevelop prisons along the border
to address immigration and prison costs at the same time:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/cal.../schwarzenegger-send-prisoners-to-mexico.html
Schwarzenegger Build prisons in Mexico

This is a unifying solution, and would solve several problems at once.

if nothing else, if you have faith that where two or three agree and pray in Christ Jesus
for anything touching the earth, it is done by our father in heaven, then as long as this is God's will then it is done.
If it isn't God's will, then whatever is, we agree to receive that also. For sake of Jesus or Justice for all.

I'm not trying to be your enemy here, I just hate to see effort wasted that could be better spent. And I also think that ChrisL was being polite. Notice she said she was too busy right now. Polite.

Do you remember how Christians ended the Gladiator events? They protested it, even some allowing themselves to be martyred, torn apart by lions to show the inhumanity of it. Eventually the gladiators fell into disfavor and the practice was discontinued. Christians are most effective when creating a culture of life to combat the culture of death. We demonstrate the philosophical conflict in being anti abortion yet supporting the death penalty, as many Christians do.

So no, I'm not shooting down your idea and doing nothing. We find other ways to be the fragrance of life in a society that holds life cheap, who cheers when a woman is starved to death by having her feeding tube removed, and who thinks abortion is a right.

And another thing is, I don't think we do our cause any favors by demonizing capital punishment. It was instituted by God himself centuries before the Torah was given on Mt. Sinai as the very backbone of human criminal justice. It goes all the way back to Noah. One cannot vilify capital punishment without vilifying God who established it to begin with. Capital punishment is not evil and it's not injustice, and our insinuation that it is just infuriates people and drives them away. When a murderer is put to death, no wrong has been committed nor is their any cause for complaint.

This debate isn't about good vs evil like it is for abortion, the taking of INNOCENT life, this is about what's just and what's better, or better put, justice and mercy. Justice is never wrong, but mercy is better. God would be just to condemn all of humanity, but instead sent his Son Jesus Christ to provide a bridge of mercy. And we, the recipients of mercy, ought by all right be advocates of mercy. And if we can give somebody a lifetime in prison to come to terms with the life they stole and repent, then why wouldn't we?

But now you know why I'm not enthusiastic about being combative toward capital punishment. It isn't an intrinsic evil that I must battle for the sake of righteousness, it's a practice rooted in the Old Covenant, outmoded for justice has been satisfied by mercy and we are its sons.

Well that's not true. I really have been quite preoccupied lately with the blizzards and terrible weather we've been having around here, being busy with work, amongst other more personal matters. I just haven't had the time to really give it a lot of thought. I also wonder if our representatives really ever listen to us if there isn't something "in it" for them. So I might be a bit skeptical about it.

There's a lot of good ways to promote the cause for life, but this isn't one of them. We just established here that there's no precedent for taxpayers being able to opt out of paying taxes for things they object to. How could anyone calculate how much of one's taxes actually went to enforcing the death penalty? That's a dead end cause and politicians won't give it any thought because it simply doesn't work, not because they aren't listening. I know my representatives listen to me, staying in constant contact with them by email.

What's even more unfortunate is what actually does work. States have only gotten rid of their death penalty statutes after an innocent person was executed or an execution was botched. That's the only thing that really seems to wake people up to this barbaric practice.

Hi saintmichaeldefendthem
the solution may be right under our noses
currently the Democrats have pushed to set up these federal exchanges

These can be reworked to register immigrant applicants and people
who have been convicted of crimes who owe restitution through the state.
instead of forcing regulations and restriction on law abiding citizens,
who committed no crimes where govt has no authorization to deprive liberties.

As for people like Chris, me and others who believe in Restorative Justice,
we can start by asking help for investing in prison programs that provide rehab, recovery, restitution and medical treatment services. Since the Democrats wrote in their platform to abolish the Death Penalty, Democrat donors and candidates who want to prove their leadership skills would be a good start, to hit on the Democrat sponsors who invest millions in campaigns and can use this to feature future leaders as heading the reforms.

We take each capital case and mediate to form a consensus on resolving it, to preserve resources and work out meaningful restitution where all parties agree. (if not, if they want to use the current system, that remains the default option.) Cases where all the people agree on alternatives, we can agree to take on those cases and work out the costs where the people who committed the crimes, or the people willing to fund alternatives, cover those costs through a restitution program. It can involve microlending until the people who did the damages can pay back their debts. The traffickers and gangs who owe restitution for violence along the border can work for life to set up programs there. (if you think this is far-fetched, I know nonprofit groups already working with former gang members on community outreach, who share this same vision of working in teams to take on the border issues of drug and human trafficking. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, but taking the wheels and car parts already out there, and asking to assemble the whole machine where these parts work together as designed.)

We prove that it works first, that meaningful proportional restitution encourages wrongdoers to cooperate and participate in corrections. Then public policy can follow based on what is proven to work cost effectively.

The mistake the Obama administration made is not proving their solutions work before mandating them by laws. We can fix that by applying mandates to the criminal justice systems by state, and work out ways to pay for health care by crediting back the taxpayers for money currently wasted on failed prisons that cost more and more and don't solve the problems but make them worse. By investing in solutions that prevent crime by treating and correcting the causes of mental and criminal illness, and enabling wrongdoers to become productive and pay back restitution and costs to taxpayers for their crimes, we can eventually not only pay back these debts but operate in the black and produce more work and services that can cover the populations in need instead of operating at deficit and punishing law abiding taxpayers for the costs.

Medical education and internships would be part of the mental health and prison reforms, so we would invest in developing more service providers and facilities. That makes more sense to invest in that development rather than forcing taxpayers to invest in insurance companies that don't provide actual services or train medical professionals. Reforming the VA can also streamline the medical facilities and make sure these are run cost effectively instead of being a nightmare of bureaucracy.

this reform is needed anyway, so we might as well call it for what it is, and start organizing the leadership willing to take it on and reform these institutions that are wasting taxpayer resources without providing the proper services. I would encourage political candidates to work with Veteran groups and start creating jobs for Vets and future leaders/candidates to fix these problems, invest in that work instead of funding empty media campaigns, and even televise and broadcast the solutions these leaders come up with as publicity.
==============================
Sonny Clark ^ is any of this language usable in a letter to the Allen West Foundation?
You have my permission to take any of this and edit it to explain to Ted Cruz, Ted Poe, or anyone else you think we should petition to reform the federal exchanges to localize per state.

Oh no, Emily. I only believe that juveniles can be rehabilitated. I don't think adults can. I believe that adults, who would otherwise receive the death penalty, should do life in prison without the possibility of parole.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Hi saintmichaeldefendthem
And people who fought for abolition and Civil Rights were up against the masses also.
They had to start somewhere, BEFORE any such thing as abolition of slavery was ever done by precedent.

Blacks got their rights to vote before women did. Those battles had to be separated in order to win
because people couldn't handle them being combined as Equal Human Rights.

SaintM if we waited on things to be done by precedent,
how would Einstein every introduce new knowledge?
How would Edison invent the light bulb if it had never been done before?

If you of such little faith have such little faith,
I'm glad to start with ChrisL and let her be the Rosa Parks here who is just tired and doesn't want to pay for executions
when those millions of dollars per capital case could be paying for health care and preventative treatment to stop crime
and especially murder.

There are whole groups across the country lobbying for criminal justice reform and Restorative Justice.

Maybe we need to tie it to a campaign to teach that Restorative Justice IS Christ Jesus fulfilling secular laws.

I am happy to ask my friends with 2-3 abolition groups
to help me and Chris petition the Catholic church to work with Mexican prisons
that don't have the death penalty to set up a prisoner exchange program that
we can fund as an equal choice, where people can choose deportation for life over executions.

I am happy to lobby Ted Cruz, Ted Poe and other leaders open to innovative solutions
to help form a task force to write out international laws on how this exchange can be done legally.

Even Arnold Schwarzenegger envisioned similar plans to redevelop prisons along the border
to address immigration and prison costs at the same time:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/cal.../schwarzenegger-send-prisoners-to-mexico.html
Schwarzenegger Build prisons in Mexico

This is a unifying solution, and would solve several problems at once.

if nothing else, if you have faith that where two or three agree and pray in Christ Jesus
for anything touching the earth, it is done by our father in heaven, then as long as this is God's will then it is done.
If it isn't God's will, then whatever is, we agree to receive that also. For sake of Jesus or Justice for all.

I'm not trying to be your enemy here, I just hate to see effort wasted that could be better spent. And I also think that ChrisL was being polite. Notice she said she was too busy right now. Polite.

Do you remember how Christians ended the Gladiator events? They protested it, even some allowing themselves to be martyred, torn apart by lions to show the inhumanity of it. Eventually the gladiators fell into disfavor and the practice was discontinued. Christians are most effective when creating a culture of life to combat the culture of death. We demonstrate the philosophical conflict in being anti abortion yet supporting the death penalty, as many Christians do.

So no, I'm not shooting down your idea and doing nothing. We find other ways to be the fragrance of life in a society that holds life cheap, who cheers when a woman is starved to death by having her feeding tube removed, and who thinks abortion is a right.

And another thing is, I don't think we do our cause any favors by demonizing capital punishment. It was instituted by God himself centuries before the Torah was given on Mt. Sinai as the very backbone of human criminal justice. It goes all the way back to Noah. One cannot vilify capital punishment without vilifying God who established it to begin with. Capital punishment is not evil and it's not injustice, and our insinuation that it is just infuriates people and drives them away. When a murderer is put to death, no wrong has been committed nor is their any cause for complaint.

This debate isn't about good vs evil like it is for abortion, the taking of INNOCENT life, this is about what's just and what's better, or better put, justice and mercy. Justice is never wrong, but mercy is better. God would be just to condemn all of humanity, but instead sent his Son Jesus Christ to provide a bridge of mercy. And we, the recipients of mercy, ought by all right be advocates of mercy. And if we can give somebody a lifetime in prison to come to terms with the life they stole and repent, then why wouldn't we?

But now you know why I'm not enthusiastic about being combative toward capital punishment. It isn't an intrinsic evil that I must battle for the sake of righteousness, it's a practice rooted in the Old Covenant, outmoded for justice has been satisfied by mercy and we are its sons.

Well that's not true. I really have been quite preoccupied lately with the blizzards and terrible weather we've been having around here, being busy with work, amongst other more personal matters. I just haven't had the time to really give it a lot of thought. I also wonder if our representatives really ever listen to us if there isn't something "in it" for them. So I might be a bit skeptical about it.

There's a lot of good ways to promote the cause for life, but this isn't one of them. We just established here that there's no precedent for taxpayers being able to opt out of paying taxes for things they object to. How could anyone calculate how much of one's taxes actually went to enforcing the death penalty? That's a dead end cause and politicians won't give it any thought because it simply doesn't work, not because they aren't listening. I know my representatives listen to me, staying in constant contact with them by email.

What's even more unfortunate is what actually does work. States have only gotten rid of their death penalty statutes after an innocent person was executed or an execution was botched. That's the only thing that really seems to wake people up to this barbaric practice.

Hi saintmichaeldefendthem
the solution may be right under our noses
currently the Democrats have pushed to set up these federal exchanges

These can be reworked to register immigrant applicants and people
who have been convicted of crimes who owe restitution through the state.
instead of forcing regulations and restriction on law abiding citizens,
who committed no crimes where govt has no authorization to deprive liberties.

As for people like Chris, me and others who believe in Restorative Justice,
we can start by asking help for investing in prison programs that provide rehab, recovery, restitution and medical treatment services. Since the Democrats wrote in their platform to abolish the Death Penalty, Democrat donors and candidates who want to prove their leadership skills would be a good start, to hit on the Democrat sponsors who invest millions in campaigns and can use this to feature future leaders as heading the reforms.

We take each capital case and mediate to form a consensus on resolving it, to preserve resources and work out meaningful restitution where all parties agree. (if not, if they want to use the current system, that remains the default option.) Cases where all the people agree on alternatives, we can agree to take on those cases and work out the costs where the people who committed the crimes, or the people willing to fund alternatives, cover those costs through a restitution program. It can involve microlending until the people who did the damages can pay back their debts. The traffickers and gangs who owe restitution for violence along the border can work for life to set up programs there. (if you think this is far-fetched, I know nonprofit groups already working with former gang members on community outreach, who share this same vision of working in teams to take on the border issues of drug and human trafficking. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, but taking the wheels and car parts already out there, and asking to assemble the whole machine where these parts work together as designed.)

We prove that it works first, that meaningful proportional restitution encourages wrongdoers to cooperate and participate in corrections. Then public policy can follow based on what is proven to work cost effectively.

The mistake the Obama administration made is not proving their solutions work before mandating them by laws. We can fix that by applying mandates to the criminal justice systems by state, and work out ways to pay for health care by crediting back the taxpayers for money currently wasted on failed prisons that cost more and more and don't solve the problems but make them worse. By investing in solutions that prevent crime by treating and correcting the causes of mental and criminal illness, and enabling wrongdoers to become productive and pay back restitution and costs to taxpayers for their crimes, we can eventually not only pay back these debts but operate in the black and produce more work and services that can cover the populations in need instead of operating at deficit and punishing law abiding taxpayers for the costs.

Medical education and internships would be part of the mental health and prison reforms, so we would invest in developing more service providers and facilities. That makes more sense to invest in that development rather than forcing taxpayers to invest in insurance companies that don't provide actual services or train medical professionals. Reforming the VA can also streamline the medical facilities and make sure these are run cost effectively instead of being a nightmare of bureaucracy.

this reform is needed anyway, so we might as well call it for what it is, and start organizing the leadership willing to take it on and reform these institutions that are wasting taxpayer resources without providing the proper services. I would encourage political candidates to work with Veteran groups and start creating jobs for Vets and future leaders/candidates to fix these problems, invest in that work instead of funding empty media campaigns, and even televise and broadcast the solutions these leaders come up with as publicity.
==============================
Sonny Clark ^ is any of this language usable in a letter to the Allen West Foundation?
You have my permission to take any of this and edit it to explain to Ted Cruz, Ted Poe, or anyone else you think we should petition to reform the federal exchanges to localize per state.

Oh no, Emily. I only believe that juveniles can be rehabilitated. I don't think adults can. I believe that adults, who would otherwise receive the death penalty, should do life in prison without the possibility of parole.

Agreed. They had their shot at freedom and they used it to bring death and destruction to others. Being against the death penalty doesn't mean I'm soft on crime. In fact I've brought up before that the reason there's such an appetite for executing criminals is because most people think penalties for violent crimes aren't harsh enough and they don't want these people paroled and turned back onto the streets.

 

[ChrisL]

I'm not trying to be your enemy here, I just hate to see effort wasted that could be better spent. And I also think that ChrisL was being polite. Notice she said she was too busy right now. Polite.

Do you remember how Christians ended the Gladiator events? They protested it, even some allowing themselves to be martyred, torn apart by lions to show the inhumanity of it. Eventually the gladiators fell into disfavor and the practice was discontinued. Christians are most effective when creating a culture of life to combat the culture of death. We demonstrate the philosophical conflict in being anti abortion yet supporting the death penalty, as many Christians do.

So no, I'm not shooting down your idea and doing nothing. We find other ways to be the fragrance of life in a society that holds life cheap, who cheers when a woman is starved to death by having her feeding tube removed, and who thinks abortion is a right.

And another thing is, I don't think we do our cause any favors by demonizing capital punishment. It was instituted by God himself centuries before the Torah was given on Mt. Sinai as the very backbone of human criminal justice. It goes all the way back to Noah. One cannot vilify capital punishment without vilifying God who established it to begin with. Capital punishment is not evil and it's not injustice, and our insinuation that it is just infuriates people and drives them away. When a murderer is put to death, no wrong has been committed nor is their any cause for complaint.

This debate isn't about good vs evil like it is for abortion, the taking of INNOCENT life, this is about what's just and what's better, or better put, justice and mercy. Justice is never wrong, but mercy is better. God would be just to condemn all of humanity, but instead sent his Son Jesus Christ to provide a bridge of mercy. And we, the recipients of mercy, ought by all right be advocates of mercy. And if we can give somebody a lifetime in prison to come to terms with the life they stole and repent, then why wouldn't we?

But now you know why I'm not enthusiastic about being combative toward capital punishment. It isn't an intrinsic evil that I must battle for the sake of righteousness, it's a practice rooted in the Old Covenant, outmoded for justice has been satisfied by mercy and we are its sons.

Well that's not true. I really have been quite preoccupied lately with the blizzards and terrible weather we've been having around here, being busy with work, amongst other more personal matters. I just haven't had the time to really give it a lot of thought. I also wonder if our representatives really ever listen to us if there isn't something "in it" for them. So I might be a bit skeptical about it.

There's a lot of good ways to promote the cause for life, but this isn't one of them. We just established here that there's no precedent for taxpayers being able to opt out of paying taxes for things they object to. How could anyone calculate how much of one's taxes actually went to enforcing the death penalty? That's a dead end cause and politicians won't give it any thought because it simply doesn't work, not because they aren't listening. I know my representatives listen to me, staying in constant contact with them by email.

What's even more unfortunate is what actually does work. States have only gotten rid of their death penalty statutes after an innocent person was executed or an execution was botched. That's the only thing that really seems to wake people up to this barbaric practice.

Hi saintmichaeldefendthem
the solution may be right under our noses
currently the Democrats have pushed to set up these federal exchanges

These can be reworked to register immigrant applicants and people
who have been convicted of crimes who owe restitution through the state.
instead of forcing regulations and restriction on law abiding citizens,
who committed no crimes where govt has no authorization to deprive liberties.

As for people like Chris, me and others who believe in Restorative Justice,
we can start by asking help for investing in prison programs that provide rehab, recovery, restitution and medical treatment services. Since the Democrats wrote in their platform to abolish the Death Penalty, Democrat donors and candidates who want to prove their leadership skills would be a good start, to hit on the Democrat sponsors who invest millions in campaigns and can use this to feature future leaders as heading the reforms.

We take each capital case and mediate to form a consensus on resolving it, to preserve resources and work out meaningful restitution where all parties agree. (if not, if they want to use the current system, that remains the default option.) Cases where all the people agree on alternatives, we can agree to take on those cases and work out the costs where the people who committed the crimes, or the people willing to fund alternatives, cover those costs through a restitution program. It can involve microlending until the people who did the damages can pay back their debts. The traffickers and gangs who owe restitution for violence along the border can work for life to set up programs there. (if you think this is far-fetched, I know nonprofit groups already working with former gang members on community outreach, who share this same vision of working in teams to take on the border issues of drug and human trafficking. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, but taking the wheels and car parts already out there, and asking to assemble the whole machine where these parts work together as designed.)

We prove that it works first, that meaningful proportional restitution encourages wrongdoers to cooperate and participate in corrections. Then public policy can follow based on what is proven to work cost effectively.

The mistake the Obama administration made is not proving their solutions work before mandating them by laws. We can fix that by applying mandates to the criminal justice systems by state, and work out ways to pay for health care by crediting back the taxpayers for money currently wasted on failed prisons that cost more and more and don't solve the problems but make them worse. By investing in solutions that prevent crime by treating and correcting the causes of mental and criminal illness, and enabling wrongdoers to become productive and pay back restitution and costs to taxpayers for their crimes, we can eventually not only pay back these debts but operate in the black and produce more work and services that can cover the populations in need instead of operating at deficit and punishing law abiding taxpayers for the costs.

Medical education and internships would be part of the mental health and prison reforms, so we would invest in developing more service providers and facilities. That makes more sense to invest in that development rather than forcing taxpayers to invest in insurance companies that don't provide actual services or train medical professionals. Reforming the VA can also streamline the medical facilities and make sure these are run cost effectively instead of being a nightmare of bureaucracy.

this reform is needed anyway, so we might as well call it for what it is, and start organizing the leadership willing to take it on and reform these institutions that are wasting taxpayer resources without providing the proper services. I would encourage political candidates to work with Veteran groups and start creating jobs for Vets and future leaders/candidates to fix these problems, invest in that work instead of funding empty media campaigns, and even televise and broadcast the solutions these leaders come up with as publicity.
==============================
Sonny Clark ^ is any of this language usable in a letter to the Allen West Foundation?
You have my permission to take any of this and edit it to explain to Ted Cruz, Ted Poe, or anyone else you think we should petition to reform the federal exchanges to localize per state.

Oh no, Emily. I only believe that juveniles can be rehabilitated. I don't think adults can. I believe that adults, who would otherwise receive the death penalty, should do life in prison without the possibility of parole.

Agreed. They had their shot at freedom and they used it to bring death and destruction to others. Being against the death penalty doesn't mean I'm soft on crime. In fact I've brought up before that the reason there's such an appetite for executing criminals is because most people think penalties for violent crimes aren't harsh enough and they don't want these people paroled and turned back onto the streets.

I agree. As a matter of fact, there are many, many times when it is a struggle to be anti-DP. There are some crimes that are just so terrible I would like to kill the perp myself, so I struggle with it at times.

 

[emilynghiem]

Hi saintmichaeldefendthem
And people who fought for abolition and Civil Rights were up against the masses also.
They had to start somewhere, BEFORE any such thing as abolition of slavery was ever done by precedent.

Blacks got their rights to vote before women did. Those battles had to be separated in order to win
because people couldn't handle them being combined as Equal Human Rights.

SaintM if we waited on things to be done by precedent,
how would Einstein every introduce new knowledge?
How would Edison invent the light bulb if it had never been done before?

If you of such little faith have such little faith,
I'm glad to start with ChrisL and let her be the Rosa Parks here who is just tired and doesn't want to pay for executions
when those millions of dollars per capital case could be paying for health care and preventative treatment to stop crime
and especially murder.

There are whole groups across the country lobbying for criminal justice reform and Restorative Justice.

Maybe we need to tie it to a campaign to teach that Restorative Justice IS Christ Jesus fulfilling secular laws.

I am happy to ask my friends with 2-3 abolition groups
to help me and Chris petition the Catholic church to work with Mexican prisons
that don't have the death penalty to set up a prisoner exchange program that
we can fund as an equal choice, where people can choose deportation for life over executions.

I am happy to lobby Ted Cruz, Ted Poe and other leaders open to innovative solutions
to help form a task force to write out international laws on how this exchange can be done legally.

Even Arnold Schwarzenegger envisioned similar plans to redevelop prisons along the border
to address immigration and prison costs at the same time:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/cal.../schwarzenegger-send-prisoners-to-mexico.html
Schwarzenegger Build prisons in Mexico

This is a unifying solution, and would solve several problems at once.

if nothing else, if you have faith that where two or three agree and pray in Christ Jesus
for anything touching the earth, it is done by our father in heaven, then as long as this is God's will then it is done.
If it isn't God's will, then whatever is, we agree to receive that also. For sake of Jesus or Justice for all.

I'm not trying to be your enemy here, I just hate to see effort wasted that could be better spent. And I also think that ChrisL was being polite. Notice she said she was too busy right now. Polite.

Do you remember how Christians ended the Gladiator events? They protested it, even some allowing themselves to be martyred, torn apart by lions to show the inhumanity of it. Eventually the gladiators fell into disfavor and the practice was discontinued. Christians are most effective when creating a culture of life to combat the culture of death. We demonstrate the philosophical conflict in being anti abortion yet supporting the death penalty, as many Christians do.

So no, I'm not shooting down your idea and doing nothing. We find other ways to be the fragrance of life in a society that holds life cheap, who cheers when a woman is starved to death by having her feeding tube removed, and who thinks abortion is a right.

And another thing is, I don't think we do our cause any favors by demonizing capital punishment. It was instituted by God himself centuries before the Torah was given on Mt. Sinai as the very backbone of human criminal justice. It goes all the way back to Noah. One cannot vilify capital punishment without vilifying God who established it to begin with. Capital punishment is not evil and it's not injustice, and our insinuation that it is just infuriates people and drives them away. When a murderer is put to death, no wrong has been committed nor is their any cause for complaint.

This debate isn't about good vs evil like it is for abortion, the taking of INNOCENT life, this is about what's just and what's better, or better put, justice and mercy. Justice is never wrong, but mercy is better. God would be just to condemn all of humanity, but instead sent his Son Jesus Christ to provide a bridge of mercy. And we, the recipients of mercy, ought by all right be advocates of mercy. And if we can give somebody a lifetime in prison to come to terms with the life they stole and repent, then why wouldn't we?

But now you know why I'm not enthusiastic about being combative toward capital punishment. It isn't an intrinsic evil that I must battle for the sake of righteousness, it's a practice rooted in the Old Covenant, outmoded for justice has been satisfied by mercy and we are its sons.

Well that's not true. I really have been quite preoccupied lately with the blizzards and terrible weather we've been having around here, being busy with work, amongst other more personal matters. I just haven't had the time to really give it a lot of thought. I also wonder if our representatives really ever listen to us if there isn't something "in it" for them. So I might be a bit skeptical about it.

There's a lot of good ways to promote the cause for life, but this isn't one of them. We just established here that there's no precedent for taxpayers being able to opt out of paying taxes for things they object to. How could anyone calculate how much of one's taxes actually went to enforcing the death penalty? That's a dead end cause and politicians won't give it any thought because it simply doesn't work, not because they aren't listening. I know my representatives listen to me, staying in constant contact with them by email.

What's even more unfortunate is what actually does work. States have only gotten rid of their death penalty statutes after an innocent person was executed or an execution was botched. That's the only thing that really seems to wake people up to this barbaric practice.

Hi saintmichaeldefendthem
the solution may be right under our noses
currently the Democrats have pushed to set up these federal exchanges

These can be reworked to register immigrant applicants and people
who have been convicted of crimes who owe restitution through the state.
instead of forcing regulations and restriction on law abiding citizens,
who committed no crimes where govt has no authorization to deprive liberties.

As for people like Chris, me and others who believe in Restorative Justice,
we can start by asking help for investing in prison programs that provide rehab, recovery, restitution and medical treatment services. Since the Democrats wrote in their platform to abolish the Death Penalty, Democrat donors and candidates who want to prove their leadership skills would be a good start, to hit on the Democrat sponsors who invest millions in campaigns and can use this to feature future leaders as heading the reforms.

We take each capital case and mediate to form a consensus on resolving it, to preserve resources and work out meaningful restitution where all parties agree. (if not, if they want to use the current system, that remains the default option.) Cases where all the people agree on alternatives, we can agree to take on those cases and work out the costs where the people who committed the crimes, or the people willing to fund alternatives, cover those costs through a restitution program. It can involve microlending until the people who did the damages can pay back their debts. The traffickers and gangs who owe restitution for violence along the border can work for life to set up programs there. (if you think this is far-fetched, I know nonprofit groups already working with former gang members on community outreach, who share this same vision of working in teams to take on the border issues of drug and human trafficking. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, but taking the wheels and car parts already out there, and asking to assemble the whole machine where these parts work together as designed.)

We prove that it works first, that meaningful proportional restitution encourages wrongdoers to cooperate and participate in corrections. Then public policy can follow based on what is proven to work cost effectively.

The mistake the Obama administration made is not proving their solutions work before mandating them by laws. We can fix that by applying mandates to the criminal justice systems by state, and work out ways to pay for health care by crediting back the taxpayers for money currently wasted on failed prisons that cost more and more and don't solve the problems but make them worse. By investing in solutions that prevent crime by treating and correcting the causes of mental and criminal illness, and enabling wrongdoers to become productive and pay back restitution and costs to taxpayers for their crimes, we can eventually not only pay back these debts but operate in the black and produce more work and services that can cover the populations in need instead of operating at deficit and punishing law abiding taxpayers for the costs.

Medical education and internships would be part of the mental health and prison reforms, so we would invest in developing more service providers and facilities. That makes more sense to invest in that development rather than forcing taxpayers to invest in insurance companies that don't provide actual services or train medical professionals. Reforming the VA can also streamline the medical facilities and make sure these are run cost effectively instead of being a nightmare of bureaucracy.

this reform is needed anyway, so we might as well call it for what it is, and start organizing the leadership willing to take it on and reform these institutions that are wasting taxpayer resources without providing the proper services. I would encourage political candidates to work with Veteran groups and start creating jobs for Vets and future leaders/candidates to fix these problems, invest in that work instead of funding empty media campaigns, and even televise and broadcast the solutions these leaders come up with as publicity.
==============================
Sonny Clark ^ is any of this language usable in a letter to the Allen West Foundation?
You have my permission to take any of this and edit it to explain to Ted Cruz, Ted Poe, or anyone else you think we should petition to reform the federal exchanges to localize per state.

Oh no, Emily. I only believe that juveniles can be rehabilitated. I don't think adults can. I believe that adults, who would otherwise receive the death penalty, should do life in prison without the possibility of parole.

ChrisL I didn't say they wouldn't still be detained for life.

The ones who can be rehabilitated can do work in prison for life, and take over the sweatshop factory jobs of children who can then go to school and get an education.

If you don't know that adults can be rehabilitated, you should look at the work of groups that have successfully helped adults. The programs that focus on literacy and education, some of them have an 85-95% success rate of reintegrating fully. The No More Victims Inc. group in Houston also discovered that by working with parents and their children, they had a higher success rate.

If we keep segregating and destroying the family and community connections,
that is why these people have no support to recover.

Even the STAR program in Texas changed a lot of people's minds about what is possible with recovery and restoring people's ability to work and support their families.

The dangerous ones don't have to be released, but can still receive help to function and work meaningful jobs while serving in prison.

This isn't mutually exclusive.

BTW there is no risk involved in rehabilitating adults and keeping them in prison.
Some of the best programs like the Alternatives to Violence Project that even trains inmates to become educators and workshop trainers (including former killers with real homicidal sickness who reformed) work because they don't affect the person's prison sentence so there is no fakery going on to try to get released. It's set up to work purely voluntary, so it remains effective.

 

[emilynghiem]

Agreed. They had their shot at freedom and they used it to bring death and destruction to others. Being against the death penalty doesn't mean I'm soft on crime. In fact I've brought up before that the reason there's such an appetite for executing criminals is because most people think penalties for violent crimes aren't harsh enough and they don't want these people paroled and turned back onto the streets.

saintmichaeldefendthem the problem with that system is it still depends on people committing rape, murder or other violent crimes before taking action.

I would take it a step further. And require citizens to sign agreements that if convicted of a premeditated crime such as aggravated robbery, rape, murder,
then that person will lose their citizenship for the time they have to serve to pay the costs of damages and prosecution/incarceration back to the public and to the victims. And write out the approximate costs, so people are EDUCATED on what their choices are and how much it will cost. Either citizens must be legally competent enough to sign OR have a legal guardian accept responsibility. And if they have mental or criminal issues, they have to report that and get help up front, NOT WAIT until after they commit a crime, or the person or their guardian/family is liable for negligence if it happens.

Right now, people think the state will just pay for their defense and prison.

But what if to get your defense paid for, you had to cooperate FULLY with authorities, and not obstruct justice or withhold information. You don't have to admit guilt in order to agree to contribute to restitution. So there are ways to make the system based more on informed consent and accepting responsibility for consequences, in order to invoke privileges for citizenship.

I believe THAT would be a STRONGER deterrent than the death penalty:
people who abuse rights and freedoms risk forfeiting citizenship and trading places with an immigrant on the waiting list who is WILLING to work an honest living as a law abiding citizen. Rewarding law abiding productive citizens and revoking citizenship for those who refuse to respect the rights and freedoms of others and/or don't report criminal issues that risk public safety.

 

[Unkotare]

Most Americans do favor capital punishment and most have never even considered why they favor it. ....

You don't know what "most Americans" have or have not considered. You are just another illogical, biased blockhead.

 

[ChrisL]

I'm not trying to be your enemy here, I just hate to see effort wasted that could be better spent. And I also think that ChrisL was being polite. Notice she said she was too busy right now. Polite.

Do you remember how Christians ended the Gladiator events? They protested it, even some allowing themselves to be martyred, torn apart by lions to show the inhumanity of it. Eventually the gladiators fell into disfavor and the practice was discontinued. Christians are most effective when creating a culture of life to combat the culture of death. We demonstrate the philosophical conflict in being anti abortion yet supporting the death penalty, as many Christians do.

So no, I'm not shooting down your idea and doing nothing. We find other ways to be the fragrance of life in a society that holds life cheap, who cheers when a woman is starved to death by having her feeding tube removed, and who thinks abortion is a right.

And another thing is, I don't think we do our cause any favors by demonizing capital punishment. It was instituted by God himself centuries before the Torah was given on Mt. Sinai as the very backbone of human criminal justice. It goes all the way back to Noah. One cannot vilify capital punishment without vilifying God who established it to begin with. Capital punishment is not evil and it's not injustice, and our insinuation that it is just infuriates people and drives them away. When a murderer is put to death, no wrong has been committed nor is their any cause for complaint.

This debate isn't about good vs evil like it is for abortion, the taking of INNOCENT life, this is about what's just and what's better, or better put, justice and mercy. Justice is never wrong, but mercy is better. God would be just to condemn all of humanity, but instead sent his Son Jesus Christ to provide a bridge of mercy. And we, the recipients of mercy, ought by all right be advocates of mercy. And if we can give somebody a lifetime in prison to come to terms with the life they stole and repent, then why wouldn't we?

But now you know why I'm not enthusiastic about being combative toward capital punishment. It isn't an intrinsic evil that I must battle for the sake of righteousness, it's a practice rooted in the Old Covenant, outmoded for justice has been satisfied by mercy and we are its sons.

Well that's not true. I really have been quite preoccupied lately with the blizzards and terrible weather we've been having around here, being busy with work, amongst other more personal matters. I just haven't had the time to really give it a lot of thought. I also wonder if our representatives really ever listen to us if there isn't something "in it" for them. So I might be a bit skeptical about it.

There's a lot of good ways to promote the cause for life, but this isn't one of them. We just established here that there's no precedent for taxpayers being able to opt out of paying taxes for things they object to. How could anyone calculate how much of one's taxes actually went to enforcing the death penalty? That's a dead end cause and politicians won't give it any thought because it simply doesn't work, not because they aren't listening. I know my representatives listen to me, staying in constant contact with them by email.

What's even more unfortunate is what actually does work. States have only gotten rid of their death penalty statutes after an innocent person was executed or an execution was botched. That's the only thing that really seems to wake people up to this barbaric practice.

Hi saintmichaeldefendthem
the solution may be right under our noses
currently the Democrats have pushed to set up these federal exchanges

These can be reworked to register immigrant applicants and people
who have been convicted of crimes who owe restitution through the state.
instead of forcing regulations and restriction on law abiding citizens,
who committed no crimes where govt has no authorization to deprive liberties.

As for people like Chris, me and others who believe in Restorative Justice,
we can start by asking help for investing in prison programs that provide rehab, recovery, restitution and medical treatment services. Since the Democrats wrote in their platform to abolish the Death Penalty, Democrat donors and candidates who want to prove their leadership skills would be a good start, to hit on the Democrat sponsors who invest millions in campaigns and can use this to feature future leaders as heading the reforms.

We take each capital case and mediate to form a consensus on resolving it, to preserve resources and work out meaningful restitution where all parties agree. (if not, if they want to use the current system, that remains the default option.) Cases where all the people agree on alternatives, we can agree to take on those cases and work out the costs where the people who committed the crimes, or the people willing to fund alternatives, cover those costs through a restitution program. It can involve microlending until the people who did the damages can pay back their debts. The traffickers and gangs who owe restitution for violence along the border can work for life to set up programs there. (if you think this is far-fetched, I know nonprofit groups already working with former gang members on community outreach, who share this same vision of working in teams to take on the border issues of drug and human trafficking. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, but taking the wheels and car parts already out there, and asking to assemble the whole machine where these parts work together as designed.)

We prove that it works first, that meaningful proportional restitution encourages wrongdoers to cooperate and participate in corrections. Then public policy can follow based on what is proven to work cost effectively.

The mistake the Obama administration made is not proving their solutions work before mandating them by laws. We can fix that by applying mandates to the criminal justice systems by state, and work out ways to pay for health care by crediting back the taxpayers for money currently wasted on failed prisons that cost more and more and don't solve the problems but make them worse. By investing in solutions that prevent crime by treating and correcting the causes of mental and criminal illness, and enabling wrongdoers to become productive and pay back restitution and costs to taxpayers for their crimes, we can eventually not only pay back these debts but operate in the black and produce more work and services that can cover the populations in need instead of operating at deficit and punishing law abiding taxpayers for the costs.

Medical education and internships would be part of the mental health and prison reforms, so we would invest in developing more service providers and facilities. That makes more sense to invest in that development rather than forcing taxpayers to invest in insurance companies that don't provide actual services or train medical professionals. Reforming the VA can also streamline the medical facilities and make sure these are run cost effectively instead of being a nightmare of bureaucracy.

this reform is needed anyway, so we might as well call it for what it is, and start organizing the leadership willing to take it on and reform these institutions that are wasting taxpayer resources without providing the proper services. I would encourage political candidates to work with Veteran groups and start creating jobs for Vets and future leaders/candidates to fix these problems, invest in that work instead of funding empty media campaigns, and even televise and broadcast the solutions these leaders come up with as publicity.
==============================
Sonny Clark ^ is any of this language usable in a letter to the Allen West Foundation?
You have my permission to take any of this and edit it to explain to Ted Cruz, Ted Poe, or anyone else you think we should petition to reform the federal exchanges to localize per state.

Oh no, Emily. I only believe that juveniles can be rehabilitated. I don't think adults can. I believe that adults, who would otherwise receive the death penalty, should do life in prison without the possibility of parole.

ChrisL I didn't say they wouldn't still be detained for life.

The ones who can be rehabilitated can do work in prison for life, and take over the sweatshop factory jobs of children who can then go to school and get an education.

If you don't know that adults can be rehabilitated, you should look at the work of groups that have successfully helped adults. The programs that focus on literacy and education, some of them have an 85-95% success rate of reintegrating fully. The No More Victims Inc. group in Houston also discovered that by working with parents and their children, they had a higher success rate.

If we keep segregating and destroying the family and community connections,
that is why these people have no support to recover.

Even the STAR program in Texas changed a lot of people's minds about what is possible with recovery and restoring people's ability to work and support their families.

The dangerous ones don't have to be released, but can still receive help to function and work meaningful jobs while serving in prison.

This isn't mutually exclusive.

BTW there is no risk involved in rehabilitating adults and keeping them in prison.
Some of the best programs like the Alternatives to Violence Project that even trains inmates to become educators and workshop trainers (including former killers with real homicidal sickness who reformed) work because they don't affect the person's prison sentence so there is no fakery going on to try to get released. It's set up to work purely voluntary, so it remains effective.

Adult minds are just not as pliable as those of children. They are pretty much set in their ways. Besides the fact that, as adults, they know better. They are not children. No excuses.

 

[DGS49]

Every survey taken on the subject in the past 100 years finds that a majority of the American public supports the death penalty for our worst felons. The same is true in Europe, but in Europe the legislatures really don't give a fuck what the people want - they consider themselves to be enlightened. Kinda like America's liberals.

On the other hand, majority sentiment is not always a good basis for sound or intelligent public policy. In a completely secret ballot one could probably get a majority of Americans to support sending everyone in the U.S. with Black African ancestry (including Bill Cosby) "back to Africa." Jews "back to Israel," and so on.

But the death penalty in the U.S. is stupid public policy in any event. The ACLU and its fellow travelers have made actually executing anyone so cumbersome, time-consuming, expensive, and difficult that - other than in Texas - actually getting executed for a crime is like "winning" a negative State lottery. You could staff an aircraft carrier with the thousands of Americans currently on death row. More die of old age in prison than are ever executed. It serves no purpose - in fact it is counterproductive - for a state to go through all of the bullshit to actually have someone condemned to death and go through all of the mandatory and discretionary appeals, only to have some gutless governor get cold feet at the end of the process and declare that he just won't sign the death warrant. Deterrence? You gotta be kidding.

Better to simply pass a constitutional amendment saying "Fuck the Death Penalty," and throw all these bastards in the same dedicated facility, where they can live out their lives with minimal bother and cost to anyone else. Guantanamo Bay anyone? Wouldn't that just piss the Castro's off royally! We could pay Cubans to run the facility!

I am one conservative/libertarian who thinks the death penalty ought to be abolished. Formally.

 

[ChrisL]

Every survey taken on the subject in the past 100 years finds that a majority of the American public supports the death penalty for our worst felons. The same is true in Europe, but in Europe the legislatures really don't give a fuck what the people want - they consider themselves to be enlightened. Kinda like America's liberals.

On the other hand, majority sentiment is not always a good basis for sound or intelligent public policy. In a completely secret ballot one could probably get a majority of Americans to support sending everyone in the U.S. with Black African ancestry (including Bill Cosby) "back to Africa." Jews "back to Israel," and so on.

But the death penalty in the U.S. is stupid public policy in any event. The ACLU and its fellow travelers have made actually executing anyone so cumbersome, time-consuming, expensive, and difficult that - other than in Texas - actually getting executed for a crime is like "winning" a negative State lottery. You could staff an aircraft carrier with the thousands of Americans currently on death row. More die of old age in prison than are ever executed. It serves no purpose - in fact it is counterproductive - for a state to go through all of the bullshit to actually have someone condemned to death and go through all of the mandatory and discretionary appeals, only to have some gutless governor get cold feet at the end of the process and declare that he just won't sign the death warrant. Deterrence? You gotta be kidding.

Better to simply pass a constitutional amendment saying "Fuck the Death Penalty," and throw all these bastards in the same dedicated facility, where they can live out their lives with minimal bother and cost to anyone else. Guantanamo Bay anyone? Wouldn't that just piss the Castro's off royally! We could pay Cubans to run the facility!

I am one conservative/libertarian who thinks the death penalty ought to be abolished. Formally.

Let's not also forget, that the poor are pretty much going to be railroaded. How often are rich men/women sentenced to death? How often does it happen to the poor?

 

[Muhammed]

No one is innocent - we are all human and we have all made mistakes.
I did acknowledge that as long as we enforce a death penalty, we will wind up executing people who are not guilty of the crime we are executing them for. We are human beings, the fact that we are incapable of perfectly enforcing any punishment is not - IMHO - a sufficient argument to stop enforcing punishments.

Just at that level,death can not be overturned. Killing a few innocents because we know we do,make little sense.
Bottom line ,the state shouldn't have that power.

That's another good point. Polls show that Americans' trust in their government is at an all time low but we trust them with power of life and death over people? It makes no sense. I wouldn't trust the government to watch my kids or balance my checkbook much less killing people.

Well why do Liberals trust Govt with heath care?
and why do Conservatives trust Govt with military spending unquestioned and unchecked?

Some things government does very well, other things not so well. The military falls in the first category.

The problem I have with the government executing people is the state runs the prosecution from arrest to the carrying out of sentences. Prosecutors pursue perfect conviction records meaning they are determined not to get to the truth, but to get the conviction. Every time. Putting the state in charge of killing somebody they set up to be convicted regardless of actual guilt to begin with comes very close to state sanctioned murder.

Deprived of the ability to kill the people it convicts, there is time to find the truth and have the conviction overturned. This happens a lot, especially with people who were convicted based on eyewitness account but exonerated by DNA evidence.

There are quite a few people who were found to be innocent. Why anyone thinks executing people is worth the risk, I don't know. Just blood thirsty people I guess. Killing is killing, IMO. I don't want my taxpayer dollars going to kill people who are no longer a threat to society. It's stupid, wasteful and barbaric.

I don't think someone who has committed a capital crime is ever "no longer a threat to society".

Just because they are sent to prison does not mean they cannot commit assaults or even murder. The Texas 7 for example.

Also, the most violent criminals often victimize other inmates and prison staff.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Just at that level,death can not be overturned. Killing a few innocents because we know we do,make little sense.
Bottom line ,the state shouldn't have that power.

That's another good point. Polls show that Americans' trust in their government is at an all time low but we trust them with power of life and death over people? It makes no sense. I wouldn't trust the government to watch my kids or balance my checkbook much less killing people.

Well why do Liberals trust Govt with heath care?
and why do Conservatives trust Govt with military spending unquestioned and unchecked?

Some things government does very well, other things not so well. The military falls in the first category.

The problem I have with the government executing people is the state runs the prosecution from arrest to the carrying out of sentences. Prosecutors pursue perfect conviction records meaning they are determined not to get to the truth, but to get the conviction. Every time. Putting the state in charge of killing somebody they set up to be convicted regardless of actual guilt to begin with comes very close to state sanctioned murder.

Deprived of the ability to kill the people it convicts, there is time to find the truth and have the conviction overturned. This happens a lot, especially with people who were convicted based on eyewitness account but exonerated by DNA evidence.

There are quite a few people who were found to be innocent. Why anyone thinks executing people is worth the risk, I don't know. Just blood thirsty people I guess. Killing is killing, IMO. I don't want my taxpayer dollars going to kill people who are no longer a threat to society. It's stupid, wasteful and barbaric.

I don't think someone who has committed a capital crime is ever "no longer a threat to society".

Just because they are sent to prison does not mean they cannot commit assaults or even murder. The Texas 7 for example.

Also, the most violent criminals often victimize other inmates and prison staff.

The most violent offenders are put into solitary confinement.

I've noticed that it usually takes the public about 20 years to change an axiom of belief. Prisons underwent a series of fundamental reforms in the 1990's to address the problem of inmate violence. Now prison attacks, rapes, and murders are very rare because prison staff work intelligently to identify potential threats and deal with them. Watch some modern prison documentaries and you'll be impressed at the measures they have taken to ensure inmate safety.

But in the mind of the general public nothing has changed. If you go to prison you're going to share a cell with Bubba and be his bitch and you'll get passed around like a joint and murders happen all the time.

Of course none of this is true, but people who defend DP use this axiom to create the false notion that execution is eliminating an ongoing threat. Since death row inmates are segregated and put in 23 hour solitary, executing them certainly did NOT eliminate a threat. It comes down to looking for an excuse to continue killing people when it's now completely unnecessary. For the first time in human history, we can incarcerate a person for life without jeopardizing their health and safety. That's why we should choose life when killing is now gratuitous.

 

[ChrisL]

Just at that level,death can not be overturned. Killing a few innocents because we know we do,make little sense.
Bottom line ,the state shouldn't have that power.

That's another good point. Polls show that Americans' trust in their government is at an all time low but we trust them with power of life and death over people? It makes no sense. I wouldn't trust the government to watch my kids or balance my checkbook much less killing people.

Well why do Liberals trust Govt with heath care?
and why do Conservatives trust Govt with military spending unquestioned and unchecked?

Some things government does very well, other things not so well. The military falls in the first category.

The problem I have with the government executing people is the state runs the prosecution from arrest to the carrying out of sentences. Prosecutors pursue perfect conviction records meaning they are determined not to get to the truth, but to get the conviction. Every time. Putting the state in charge of killing somebody they set up to be convicted regardless of actual guilt to begin with comes very close to state sanctioned murder.

Deprived of the ability to kill the people it convicts, there is time to find the truth and have the conviction overturned. This happens a lot, especially with people who were convicted based on eyewitness account but exonerated by DNA evidence.

There are quite a few people who were found to be innocent. Why anyone thinks executing people is worth the risk, I don't know. Just blood thirsty people I guess. Killing is killing, IMO. I don't want my taxpayer dollars going to kill people who are no longer a threat to society. It's stupid, wasteful and barbaric.

I don't think someone who has committed a capital crime is ever "no longer a threat to society".

Just because they are sent to prison does not mean they cannot commit assaults or even murder. The Texas 7 for example.

Also, the most violent criminals often victimize other inmates and prison staff.

ANY prisoner can turn violent at any time. Poor rationalization. Face facts, the DP serves no real purpose except revenge.

 

[ChrisL]

I just heard on the Today Show this morning about a guy who was convicted at 19 and was found innocent and released from jail. The prosecutors and the government don't care if a person is innocent or could be innocent. They have also been known to tamper with evidence, so have laboratory workers and others. The risks outweigh the benefits.

Ryan W. Ferguson - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

That's another good point. Polls show that Americans' trust in their government is at an all time low but we trust them with power of life and death over people? It makes no sense. I wouldn't trust the government to watch my kids or balance my checkbook much less killing people.

Well why do Liberals trust Govt with heath care?
and why do Conservatives trust Govt with military spending unquestioned and unchecked?

Some things government does very well, other things not so well. The military falls in the first category.

The problem I have with the government executing people is the state runs the prosecution from arrest to the carrying out of sentences. Prosecutors pursue perfect conviction records meaning they are determined not to get to the truth, but to get the conviction. Every time. Putting the state in charge of killing somebody they set up to be convicted regardless of actual guilt to begin with comes very close to state sanctioned murder.

Deprived of the ability to kill the people it convicts, there is time to find the truth and have the conviction overturned. This happens a lot, especially with people who were convicted based on eyewitness account but exonerated by DNA evidence.

There are quite a few people who were found to be innocent. Why anyone thinks executing people is worth the risk, I don't know. Just blood thirsty people I guess. Killing is killing, IMO. I don't want my taxpayer dollars going to kill people who are no longer a threat to society. It's stupid, wasteful and barbaric.

I don't think someone who has committed a capital crime is ever "no longer a threat to society".

Just because they are sent to prison does not mean they cannot commit assaults or even murder. The Texas 7 for example.

Also, the most violent criminals often victimize other inmates and prison staff.

ANY prisoner can turn violent at any time. Poor rationalization. Face facts, the DP serves no real purpose except revenge.

He cited a case of escaped prisoners, again something that's extremely rare and not all of the escapees were convicted murderers which deflates the argument that not executing murderers would have prevented the murder the escaped inmates committed.

 

[ChrisL]

Well why do Liberals trust Govt with heath care?
and why do Conservatives trust Govt with military spending unquestioned and unchecked?

Some things government does very well, other things not so well. The military falls in the first category.

The problem I have with the government executing people is the state runs the prosecution from arrest to the carrying out of sentences. Prosecutors pursue perfect conviction records meaning they are determined not to get to the truth, but to get the conviction. Every time. Putting the state in charge of killing somebody they set up to be convicted regardless of actual guilt to begin with comes very close to state sanctioned murder.

Deprived of the ability to kill the people it convicts, there is time to find the truth and have the conviction overturned. This happens a lot, especially with people who were convicted based on eyewitness account but exonerated by DNA evidence.

There are quite a few people who were found to be innocent. Why anyone thinks executing people is worth the risk, I don't know. Just blood thirsty people I guess. Killing is killing, IMO. I don't want my taxpayer dollars going to kill people who are no longer a threat to society. It's stupid, wasteful and barbaric.

I don't think someone who has committed a capital crime is ever "no longer a threat to society".

Just because they are sent to prison does not mean they cannot commit assaults or even murder. The Texas 7 for example.

Also, the most violent criminals often victimize other inmates and prison staff.

ANY prisoner can turn violent at any time. Poor rationalization. Face facts, the DP serves no real purpose except revenge.

He cited a case of escaped prisoners, again something that's extremely rare and not all of the escapees were convicted murderers which deflates the argument that not executing murderers would have prevented the murder the escaped inmates committed.

Some people let their emotions dictate their logic (or lack thereof).

 

[Meathead]

That's another good point. Polls show that Americans' trust in their government is at an all time low but we trust them with power of life and death over people? It makes no sense. I wouldn't trust the government to watch my kids or balance my checkbook much less killing people.

Well why do Liberals trust Govt with heath care?
and why do Conservatives trust Govt with military spending unquestioned and unchecked?

Some things government does very well, other things not so well. The military falls in the first category.

The problem I have with the government executing people is the state runs the prosecution from arrest to the carrying out of sentences. Prosecutors pursue perfect conviction records meaning they are determined not to get to the truth, but to get the conviction. Every time. Putting the state in charge of killing somebody they set up to be convicted regardless of actual guilt to begin with comes very close to state sanctioned murder.

Deprived of the ability to kill the people it convicts, there is time to find the truth and have the conviction overturned. This happens a lot, especially with people who were convicted based on eyewitness account but exonerated by DNA evidence.

There are quite a few people who were found to be innocent. Why anyone thinks executing people is worth the risk, I don't know. Just blood thirsty people I guess. Killing is killing, IMO. I don't want my taxpayer dollars going to kill people who are no longer a threat to society. It's stupid, wasteful and barbaric.

I don't think someone who has committed a capital crime is ever "no longer a threat to society".

Just because they are sent to prison does not mean they cannot commit assaults or even murder. The Texas 7 for example.

Also, the most violent criminals often victimize other inmates and prison staff.

ANY prisoner can turn violent at any time. Poor rationalization. Face facts, the DP serves no real purpose except revenge.

It serves the same purpose as flushing a toilet. There is no reason for excrement if it can be eliminated.

 

[1stRambo]

Yo, "All American Republican" here! I say Fry Them until they start smoking, just to make sure their dead!!!

"GTP"