Collateral Damage.

[Coloradomtnman]

Colo

The DoD will say it, for it is politically correct to do so... unfortunately, that is the world we now live in...

But.. in terms of planning etc... it is not considered unacceptable... it is rather something to be greatly considered before an action... but an important action will not inherently stop because of the slightest chance of collateral damage

Will they try to avoid it as much as humanly possible, while still accomplishing the mission? Yes.. even to the point where sometimes soldiers are in even more of harms way... but as stated, even with our best weapons we will have, and always will have, collateral damage

So.. by definition it is 'acceptable'.. or I would rather say it is reality, and will not disappear, even though we wish that no innocent civilian is ever hurt by our actions

Now.. please note.. I am not arguing with you.. but giving insight as a veteran, and with logical reasoning behind it

I'm also a veteran and I remember what I was taught about following the Geneva Convention.

I'm also a human being and think about how other people are affected. If my family was bombed by an invading force, I think I would join the insurgents or become an enemy of that invading force.

This is one of the practical reasons why the US military tries not to cause innocent civilian deaths during its operations. I think though that they aren't doing enough. What happens to the pilots or bombadiers who drops bombs on weddings? What happens to the agent who passed on the bunk intel about that building we bombed which was full of innocent women and children? Why didn't he confirm the intel? These guys in Delta Force and Recon know what they're doing. I think that when weddings or buildings full of innocent people are bombed, it was negligence on the part of the agent obtaining or observing the target. He didn't confirm, or couldn't confirm. So operations shouldn't have happened until such confirmation was made. There are very strict procedures for obtaining intel, as I'm sure you know, and I think perhaps an order came down from some overly ambitious captain or major vying for that next emblem or a starry-eyed colonel who felt his intel was good enough and we don't need confirmation, and gave the order to attack.

Why don't we pay reparations to the people affected by the deaths, dismemberments, maimings, injuries, and trauma we've caused? Why is there no consequence for our nation when we fuck up and kill innocent people? I have to if I run my car into someone.

 

[Korimyr the Rat]

Then, with the help of the russians and possibly the chinese, the brits and the french, NUKE THE WHOLE FUCKING PLACE 10 times over. We have a shitload of aging nukes we need to dispose of anyways. let's put them to good use.

You would contaminate the air and water for thousands of miles, including good portions of both Russia and China. Not to mention India, which would receive the bulk of the fallout.

 

[DiamondDave]

Colo

The DoD will say it, for it is politically correct to do so... unfortunately, that is the world we now live in...

But.. in terms of planning etc... it is not considered unacceptable... it is rather something to be greatly considered before an action... but an important action will not inherently stop because of the slightest chance of collateral damage

Will they try to avoid it as much as humanly possible, while still accomplishing the mission? Yes.. even to the point where sometimes soldiers are in even more of harms way... but as stated, even with our best weapons we will have, and always will have, collateral damage

So.. by definition it is 'acceptable'.. or I would rather say it is reality, and will not disappear, even though we wish that no innocent civilian is ever hurt by our actions

Now.. please note.. I am not arguing with you.. but giving insight as a veteran, and with logical reasoning behind it

I'm also a veteran and I remember what I was taught about following the Geneva Convention.

I'm also a human being and think about how other people are affected. If my family was bombed by an invading force, I think I would join the insurgents or become an enemy of that invading force.

This is one of the practical reasons why the US military tries not to cause innocent civilian deaths during its operations. I think though that they aren't doing enough. What happens to the pilots or bombadiers who drops bombs on weddings? What happens to the agent who passed on the bunk intel about that building we bombed which was full of innocent women and children? Why didn't he confirm the intel? These guys in Delta Force and Recon know what they're doing. I think that when weddings or buildings full of innocent people are bombed, it was negligence on the part of the agent obtaining or observing the target. He didn't confirm, or couldn't confirm. So operations shouldn't have happened until such confirmation was made. There are very strict procedures for obtaining intel, as I'm sure you know, and I think perhaps an order came down from some overly ambitious captain or major vying for that next emblem or a starry-eyed colonel who felt his intel was good enough and we don't need confirmation, and gave the order to attack.

Why don't we pay reparations to the people affected by the deaths, dismemberments, maimings, injuries, and trauma we've caused? Why is there no consequence for our nation when we fuck up and kill innocent people? I have to if I run my car into someone.

The same reason why countries like Iraq do not pay all of our expenses that we used for helping them

We do not intentionally target weddings, etc.. that in itself is utterly ridiculous

As for an 'invading force'.. a bit different if we were invading Canada.... but if I were a citizen in Iraq.. I would sure as hell be backing and helping the side that is removing the tyrant and trying to turn the country into a place based on a free government

 

[Coloradomtnman]

The same reason why countries like Iraq do not pay all of our expenses that we used for helping them.

I think one could make a case that we weren't helping Iraq so much as invading in our own self-interests.

We do not intentionally target weddings, etc.. that in itself is utterly ridiculous.

I don't think we intentionally target weddings. But they were targeted. Some sort of control measure should be in place to confirm the target as the enemy before the order to launch is given. That's at least what I would assume.

As for an 'invading force'.. a bit different if we were invading Canada.... but if I were a citizen in Iraq.. I would sure as hell be backing and helping the side that is removing the tyrant and trying to turn the country into a place based on a free government

Well, but that's your opinion and it might not be shared by the people who live in Iraq. I'm sure that many Iraqis are grateful to be free of Saddam's totalitarian regime, but you have to remember the chaos which followed our invasion. For example, let's say you own a store in Fallujah. As long as you watch what you say, act innocuous, and aren't unlucky, Saddam's secret police leave you alone. You do alright making a living and supporting your family. Then the Americans invade and you think that you won't have to worry about the secret police anymore. You're happy, and dancing in the streets. Then a few weeks later all Hell breaks loose. Your shop is destroyed. The Sunnis are harrassing and threatening you, and then the new police force and the Americans are (even though we consider the soldiers just to be providing security). You're son is killed by a suicide bomber. You live in constant fear. How grateful are you now? Many Iraqis feel this way, which is why the insurgents were able to cause so many problems. Then according to your media the Americans had no right to invade. Al Qaida wasn't in Iraq. There were no weapons of mass destruction. There is a lot of negative media regarding the US President at the time, who is the son of the last American President to wage war against Saddam. Most Iraqis want us out of Iraq. They aren't yet grateful for our invasion. Things aren't yet going well or even back to how they once were before Saddam's fall. And Democracy might not work for their culture they way it does for ours. It might not be the most appropriate form of government for Iraq. We, as Americans, believe its the best form of government, but not every culture is American.

We shouldn't have invaded in the first place. But we did. We should've deposed Saddam and then got the hell out and let the Iraqis find their own way in the world. Its not the US's place to decide how other people's rule themselves or if they even should. It follows along the same guidelines to which cultural anthropologists adhere: don't disrupt other cultures. They've developed and evolved in their own ways for thousands of years, and our ways aren't necessarily their ways.

 

[TofuDog]

Then, with the help of the russians and possibly the chinese, the brits and the french, NUKE THE WHOLE FUCKING PLACE 10 times over. We have a shitload of aging nukes we need to dispose of anyways. let's put them to good use.

You would contaminate the air and water for thousands of miles, including good portions of both Russia and China. Not to mention India, which would receive the bulk of the fallout.

Ya, I know, but it's still a good thought. Maybe we could carpet bomb them with lice. No wait! They already have that!

And forget about invading Canada, you're gonna get high sticked, elbowed and cross checked back on your ass. Plus, there's really not much here worth capturing, lol.

 

[DiamondDave]

No Colo... YOU believe or FEEL that we should not have invaded... but by the terms of cease-fire, we had the reasoning to do so.... just as I gave my feelings on what I would do as a person wanting freedom.... but at least I qualified that by saying that "I" would... not that "We shouldn't have"

To think we do not have interests in the region (and no, before someone says it, NOT JUST OIL) would be naive.... but we did not just go in our self interests... see why the whole thing started with aiding Kuwait.. and yes, part II was just the continuation of that action, resulting from the violations of cease-fire, which should have been taken care of long before it was

And no... weddings were not targeted... can things get hit? Yes... Can targets be missed and other things hit??? Yes... and as said SO many times.. in war, you cannot wait for some mythical 100% guarantee... and it is sure as hell not like we don't have some controls and standards, as you appear to make it sound

 

[mattskramer]

It depends on the necessity of the war.

 

[YWN666]

Then, with the help of the russians and possibly the chinese, the brits and the french, NUKE THE WHOLE FUCKING PLACE 10 times over. We have a shitload of aging nukes we need to dispose of anyways. let's put them to good use.

You would contaminate the air and water for thousands of miles, including good portions of both Russia and China. Not to mention India, which would receive the bulk of the fallout.

Ya, I know, but it's still a good thought. Maybe we could carpet bomb them with lice. No wait! They already have that!

And forget about invading Canada, you're gonna get high sticked, elbowed and cross checked back on your ass. Plus, there's really not much here worth capturing, lol.

How about we sneeze on them and give them the Swine Flu? That oughta kill 10 or 12 of them.

 

[Korimyr the Rat]

Ya, I know, but it's still a good thought. Maybe we could carpet bomb them with lice. No wait! They already have that!

Hell, I wouldn't mind wall-to-wall carpet bombing with FABs and Daisy Cutters. I'm not interested in protecting the people, but that land is worth something-- and you're not going to get any support for a plan that involves poisoning two members of the UN Security Council and the world's most populous democracy.

And forget about invading Canada, you're gonna get high sticked, elbowed and cross checked back on your ass. Plus, there's really not much here worth capturing, lol.

Last time we tried it you burned down our White House. Don't think we're going to try that one again for awhile.

But political reunification is still on my "to do" list.