Creation and so forth

[Wuwei]

Yes, I am talking about why an oscillating universe which had no beginning is impossible. I thought that was obvious. My bad.

Current observations disfavor an oscillating universe, however the awkwardness of the singularity in handling an imploding universe also exists when handling an exploding universe.

I may come across nihilistic about knowing anything about the origin, but I do think it is a worthwhile game to explore different possibilities as long as you don't become certain that one theory triumphs over all.

You are probably familiar with Brane cosmology and Linde's bubble universes.
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[ding]

Current observations disfavor an oscillating universe, however the awkwardness of the singularity in handling an imploding universe also exists when handling an exploding universe.

I may come across nihilistic about knowing anything about the origin, but I do think it is a worthwhile game to explore different possibilities as long as you don't become certain that one theory triumphs over all.

You are probably familiar with Brane cosmology and Linde's bubble universes.
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How would an oscillating universe leave the cosmic background radiation signature that we can observe and measure?

Same question for Brane cosmology?

What I have been discussing is based upon Linde's work.

 

[ding]

Will he ever offer anything new?

I'm pretty happy with how these conversations are going.

 

[ding]

And more spam!

Cool story, bro.

Inflation Theory, the First Law of Thermodynamics and quantum mechanics tells us that it is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

 

[ding]

I do think it is a worthwhile game to explore different possibilities

Me too. But they need to explain how all that radiation came to be. A universe being created from nearly equal amounts of matter and anti-matter through a quantum tunneling event does so.

 

[james bond]

what difference it makes to determining if the universe was or wasn't created from existing matter.

AFAIK the atheist scientists thought the universe didn't have a beginning and that matter just existed forever. It really wasn't logical as one would have to have an infinite past and an infinite amount of matter. They couldn't explain where this matter came from of why it was infinite. It really wasn't logical.

Today, we know that the universe had a beginning scientifically. Also, we know there had to be matter as logically we can't have something pop into existence from nothing. What we disagree on is what was the cause for the starting matter (spacetime, matter) or singularity to exist.

 

[Wuwei]

How would an oscillating universe leave the cosmic background radiation signature that we can observe and measure?

Same question for Brane cosmology?

What I have been discussing is based upon Linde's work.

If we were immortal and the universe were collapsing we would see the CMB continually blue shifting. Close to the end of the collapse, it will turn white hot and we would pass through the zone where the universe density is high enough that it is no longer transparent to photons.

Note: the CMB emanates from the point where the universe has lost enough density so that it is transparent and photons can escape.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Cool story, bro.

Inflation Theory, the First Law of Thermodynamics and quantum mechanics tells us that it is possible for matter to have a beginning.

Grow up. "First Law":

The law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system is constant; energy can be transformed from one form to another, but can be neither created nor destroyed.

What's another term for "an isolated system"? A closed system. Very good. The "known" Universe is obviously neither so you can kindly cut the tired, old, worn out, smelly, dance routine. Thermodynamics does not work in open systems.

 

[ding]

If we were immortal and the universe were collapsing we would see the CMB continually blue shifting. Close to the end of the collapse, it will turn white hot and we would pass through the zone where the universe density is high enough that it is no longer transparent to photons.

Note: the CMB emanates from the point where the universe has lost enough density so that it is transparent and photons can escape.

What created the radiation in the first place. That is what I am asking you.

 

[ding]

Grow up. "First Law":

What's another term for "an isolated system"? A closed system. Very good. The "known" Universe is obviously neither so you can kindly cut the tired, old, worn out, smelly, dance routine. Thermodynamics does not work in open systems.

In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

 

[james bond]

Is that a threat?

So timid and cowardly. Winner, winner, chicken dinner for me. Loser, loser, now who's dinner for you.

 

[surada]

So timid and cowardly. Winner, winner, chicken dinner for me. Loser, loser, now who's dinner for you.

Your threats make you look like a weak man.

 

[Wuwei]

What created the radiation in the first place. That is what I am asking you.

It is analogous to the ideal gas law. Diminish the volume as the universe collapses and the temperature rises. In the case of the CMB galaxies and everything will become a plasma.
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[ding]

It is analogous to the ideal gas law. Diminish the volume as the universe collapses and the temperature rises. In the case of the CMB galaxies and everything will become a plasma.
.

That does not explain how the radiation got their. Here's a hint: E=MC^2

 

[ding]

Disregarding neutrinos - which do not interact with other matter - and also the host of other particles that appear transiently in the course of high‑energy nuclear interactions, our universe is made of four kinds of so-called elementary particles: neutrons, protons, electrons, and photons, which are particles of radiation. The only important qualification one need make to such a simple statement is that the first three particles exist also as antiparticles, the particles constituting matter, the anti-particles anti-matter. When matter comes into contact with anti-matter they mutually annihilate each other, and their masses are instantly turned into radiation according to Einstein’s famous equation, E = mc2, in which E is the energy of the radiation, m is the annihilated mass, and c is the speed of light.

This is where the cosmic background radiation came from; matter / antimatter mutual annhilations.

George Wald: Life and Mind in the Universe

 

[james bond]

Your threats make you look like a weak man.

Lol, it's you who think they're threats. What threat did I make?

 

[surada]

Lol, it's you who think they're threats. What threat did I make?

Damn you are weak. Read your posts.

 

[ding]

In 1965, Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson at the Bell Telephone Laboratories in New Jersey discovered the cosmic background radiation - a new microwave radiation that fills the universe, coming equally from all directions, wherever one may be. It is by far the dominant radiation in the universe; billions of years of starlight have added to it only negligibly. It is commonly agreed that this is the residue remaining from that gigantic firestorm of mutual annihilation in the Big Bang.

It turns out that there are about one billion photons of that radiation for every proton in the universe. Hence it is thought that what went into the Big Bang were not exactly equal numbers of particles and anti-particles, but that for every billion anti-particles there were one billion and one particles, so that when all the mutual annihilation had happened, there remained over that one particle per billion, and that now constitutes all the matter in the universe -- all the galaxies, the stars and planets, and of course all life.

George Wald: Life and Mind in the Universe

 

[Wuwei]

That does not explain how the radiation got their. Here's a hint: E=MC^2

The CMB is thermal radiation. It follows the black body equation. I don't think we are connecting. Are you asking how the energy that produces the radiation got there or what?

 

[ding]

The CMB is thermal radiation. It follows the black body equation. I don't think we are connecting. Are you asking how the energy that produces the radiation got there or what?

Again... you are not explaining what created the radiation in the first place. I'm not asking how radiation decoupled from matter.

The radiation was created from matter / antimatter annihilation. Read posts #195 and 198.