Debunking the claim that “Palestinians” are the indigenous people of Israel

[there4eyeM]

The claim to territory simply by some kind of long-ago presence is difficult to defend in the context of historical realities.

 

[Shusha]

Haha, first I've heard of ppl eating clothes. Just kidding! ;-)

Ha, ha. Oops! Must have been distracted when writing that sentence. I've just created a new Jewish tradition, it seems.

 

[Shusha]

The claim to territory simply by some kind of long-ago presence is difficult to defend in the context of historical realities.

Well, if you are going to be pragmatic about it, I would agree with you. I have often argued that we must stop looking backward at the conflict and start working out practical, pragmatic solutions moving forward.

 

[there4eyeM]

Pragmatism is the only approach.

 

[Phoenall]

Haha, first I've heard of ppl eating clothes. Just kidding! ;-)

Ha, ha. Oops! Must have been distracted when writing that sentence. I've just created a new Jewish tradition, it seems.

Wait for the blood libels to be run up the flagpole

 

[rhodescholar]

The Population of Palestine Prior to 1948

3. Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries. By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times. Analysis of population by sub-districts shows that Arab population tended to increase the most between 1931 and 1948 in the same areas where there were large proportions of Jews. Therefore, Zionist immigration did not displace Arabs. For a detailed discussion that focuses on this myth, please refer to Zionism and its Impact.

...But this fact does not necessarily prove an Arab immigration into Palestine took place. More reasonably it confirms the very well-known fact that the coastal area attracted Arab villagers from the mountainous parts of Palestine who preferred the economic opportunities in the fast-growing areas of Jaffa and Haifa to the meager opportunities available in their villages.

The coastal area had several main attractions for the Arab villagers. They found jobs in constructing, and later working in, the port of Haifa, the Iraq Petroleum Company refineries, the railway workshops, and the nascent Arab industries there. They also took part in the large-scale cultivation of the citrus groves between Haifa and Jaffa and found jobs connected with the shipment of citrus fruits from the Jaffa port. Contrary to what Mr. Pipes claims, all these developments had almost nothing to do with the growth of the Jewish National Home. The main foreign factor that brought them about was the Mandatory government. The Zionist settlers had a clearly stated policy against using Arab labor or investing in Arab industries. At the same time, the natural increase in the Palestinian Arab population I referred to is made clear in the statistical abstracts and quarterly surveys published by the Mandatory government in the years following the census of 1931.​

Why is the rightwing so intent on INSISTING that the Palestinians have no legitimacy?

As your "source" admits, there was massive arab muslim immigration INTO what is now gaza, israel and the west bank from the 1880s to the 1940s. The jews moved there for survival, the arab muslims from neighboring countries for jobs.

As for the so-called "palestinian" nationalism, the person who knows it best wrote about it extensively:

The KGB's Man

 

[rhodescholar]

Joan Peter's was extremely inaccurate as a source for demographics.

Says who, you? Your arab muslim filth apologists?

I've studied her work and her detractors, including the writings of Finkelstein who made a living off attacking her, and his work did not prove her wrong, only that some of her numbers might have been a bit off. But her fundamental claims stood up, which is why the book is still popular and used today.

 

[Coyote]

The Population of Palestine Prior to 1948

3. Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries. By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times. Analysis of population by sub-districts shows that Arab population tended to increase the most between 1931 and 1948 in the same areas where there were large proportions of Jews. Therefore, Zionist immigration did not displace Arabs. For a detailed discussion that focuses on this myth, please refer to Zionism and its Impact.

...But this fact does not necessarily prove an Arab immigration into Palestine took place. More reasonably it confirms the very well-known fact that the coastal area attracted Arab villagers from the mountainous parts of Palestine who preferred the economic opportunities in the fast-growing areas of Jaffa and Haifa to the meager opportunities available in their villages.

The coastal area had several main attractions for the Arab villagers. They found jobs in constructing, and later working in, the port of Haifa, the Iraq Petroleum Company refineries, the railway workshops, and the nascent Arab industries there. They also took part in the large-scale cultivation of the citrus groves between Haifa and Jaffa and found jobs connected with the shipment of citrus fruits from the Jaffa port. Contrary to what Mr. Pipes claims, all these developments had almost nothing to do with the growth of the Jewish National Home. The main foreign factor that brought them about was the Mandatory government. The Zionist settlers had a clearly stated policy against using Arab labor or investing in Arab industries. At the same time, the natural increase in the Palestinian Arab population I referred to is made clear in the statistical abstracts and quarterly surveys published by the Mandatory government in the years following the census of 1931.​

Why is the rightwing so intent on INSISTING that the Palestinians have no legitimacy?

As your "source" admits, there was massive arab muslim immigration INTO what is now gaza, israel and the west bank from the 1880s to the 1940s. The jews moved there for survival, the arab muslims from neighboring countries for jobs.

As for the so-called "palestinian" nationalism, the person who knows it best wrote about it extensively:

The KGB's Man

No. It doesnt. It says nothing about "massive" immigration. It says what is known was that SOME migration took place, and lot of it was the internal move.ent of people from mountainous areas to coastal areas.

 

[Coyote]

Joan Peter's was extremely inaccurate as a source for demographics.

Says who, you? Your arab muslim filth apologists?

I've studied her work and her detractors, including the writings of Finkelstein who made a living off attacking her, and his work did not prove her wrong, only that some of her numbers might have been a bit off. But her fundamental claims stood up, which is why the book is still popular and used today.

Lots of problems with her book:
From Time Immemorial - Wikipedia

 

[Phoenall]

The Population of Palestine Prior to 1948

3. Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries. By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times. Analysis of population by sub-districts shows that Arab population tended to increase the most between 1931 and 1948 in the same areas where there were large proportions of Jews. Therefore, Zionist immigration did not displace Arabs. For a detailed discussion that focuses on this myth, please refer to Zionism and its Impact.

...But this fact does not necessarily prove an Arab immigration into Palestine took place. More reasonably it confirms the very well-known fact that the coastal area attracted Arab villagers from the mountainous parts of Palestine who preferred the economic opportunities in the fast-growing areas of Jaffa and Haifa to the meager opportunities available in their villages.

The coastal area had several main attractions for the Arab villagers. They found jobs in constructing, and later working in, the port of Haifa, the Iraq Petroleum Company refineries, the railway workshops, and the nascent Arab industries there. They also took part in the large-scale cultivation of the citrus groves between Haifa and Jaffa and found jobs connected with the shipment of citrus fruits from the Jaffa port. Contrary to what Mr. Pipes claims, all these developments had almost nothing to do with the growth of the Jewish National Home. The main foreign factor that brought them about was the Mandatory government. The Zionist settlers had a clearly stated policy against using Arab labor or investing in Arab industries. At the same time, the natural increase in the Palestinian Arab population I referred to is made clear in the statistical abstracts and quarterly surveys published by the Mandatory government in the years following the census of 1931.​

Why is the rightwing so intent on INSISTING that the Palestinians have no legitimacy?

As your "source" admits, there was massive arab muslim immigration INTO what is now gaza, israel and the west bank from the 1880s to the 1940s. The jews moved there for survival, the arab muslims from neighboring countries for jobs.

As for the so-called "palestinian" nationalism, the person who knows it best wrote about it extensively:

The KGB's Man

No. It doesnt. It says nothing about "massive" immigration. It says what is known was that SOME migration took place, and lot of it was the internal move.ent of people from mountainous areas to coastal areas.

Winston Churchill, remember him and his white paper that team palestine say is a law, stated that there was massive illegalimmigration because the British were not told to watch out for arab muslims sneaking in

 

[Phoenall]

Joan Peter's was extremely inaccurate as a source for demographics.

Says who, you? Your arab muslim filth apologists?

I've studied her work and her detractors, including the writings of Finkelstein who made a living off attacking her, and his work did not prove her wrong, only that some of her numbers might have been a bit off. But her fundamental claims stood up, which is why the book is still popular and used today.

Lots of problems with her book:
From Time Immemorial - Wikipedia

Lots of problems with team palestines sources that never seem to match the truth or reality

 

[Coyote]

Don't you think though, that the double standard is prevalent on both sides?

No, I don't. Not prevalent on both sides. I think most of the double standards are presented by Team Palestine and Team Israel often defends against these double standards by mirroring them. Its an important distinction. Its a call and response. It looks like both sides are contributing equally to the double standards, but in reality one is provoking and one is defending. While there are occasional Team Israel members who post unsavory ideas, I don't believe that any on Team Israel fundamentally believe that the Palestinian people have no right to exist, have no right to self-determination and have no right to a State. Where this is the foundation of nearly everyone on Team Palestine (you being the notable exception).

But you being the reasonable person you are, might be able to convince me. You'd have to bring examples, though. It would be a worthy conversation, if you are interested. I always enjoy debating with you.

As long as I've been here I've heard the same arguments rehashed over and over and well...you know: Jewish Invaders! Arab Squatters! We need to move past it, just like we need to move past "Israel's right to exist". Regardless of how one feels about it's founding, it's here, been here now for generations as a state, and it's not going anywhere, so move on.

Could not possibly agree with you more! I've often said that the actual, practical problems are easy to solve. Its the ideology that is problematic.

I thought about examples, so, I'll try to put them in an organized fashion - these are just some.

When a person denies the existence of a people as a people, what is the motivation behind it? Most often, it is to delegitimize them in some way. In the IP conflict it's to delegitimize their right to be in a certain area. This is most often expressed in terms like:
they are a fake people
they are an invented people
they are immigrants and invaders
they have no inherent right to exist or to self determination

Some of the Pro-Israeli comments that have supported this (including even the irradication of a religion) include:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/16109029/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/16041663/
Israeli illegal settlements

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/13365440/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15014695/

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15886265/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15542663/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15478165/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/14315588/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/14232927/

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15993547/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15707673/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15671204/




Disclaimer: because someone will automatically jump in and say "but the pro-Pali's....." - this is not to say the Pro-P side doesn't do the same

 

[Lipush]

Don't you think though, that the double standard is prevalent on both sides?

No, I don't. Not prevalent on both sides. I think most of the double standards are presented by Team Palestine and Team Israel often defends against these double standards by mirroring them. Its an important distinction. Its a call and response. It looks like both sides are contributing equally to the double standards, but in reality one is provoking and one is defending. While there are occasional Team Israel members who post unsavory ideas, I don't believe that any on Team Israel fundamentally believe that the Palestinian people have no right to exist, have no right to self-determination and have no right to a State. Where this is the foundation of nearly everyone on Team Palestine (you being the notable exception).

But you being the reasonable person you are, might be able to convince me. You'd have to bring examples, though. It would be a worthy conversation, if you are interested. I always enjoy debating with you.

As long as I've been here I've heard the same arguments rehashed over and over and well...you know: Jewish Invaders! Arab Squatters! We need to move past it, just like we need to move past "Israel's right to exist". Regardless of how one feels about it's founding, it's here, been here now for generations as a state, and it's not going anywhere, so move on.

Could not possibly agree with you more! I've often said that the actual, practical problems are easy to solve. Its the ideology that is problematic.

I thought about examples, so, I'll try to put them in an organized fashion - these are just some.

When a person denies the existence of a people as a people, what is the motivation behind it? Most often, it is to delegitimize them in some way. In the IP conflict it's to delegitimize their right to be in a certain area. This is most often expressed in terms like:
they are a fake people
they are an invented people
they are immigrants and invaders
they have no inherent right to exist or to self determination

Some of the Pro-Israeli comments that have supported this (including even the irradication of a religion) include:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/16109029/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/16041663/
Israeli illegal settlements

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/13365440/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15014695/

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15886265/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15542663/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15478165/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/14315588/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/14232927/

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15993547/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15707673/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15671204/




Disclaimer: because someone will automatically jump in and say "but the pro-Pali's....." - this is not to say the Pro-P side doesn't do the same

Big deal. No side is clean from doing this. Israel or the Palestinians.

So-effing-what.

 

[Coyote]

Don't you think though, that the double standard is prevalent on both sides?

No, I don't. Not prevalent on both sides. I think most of the double standards are presented by Team Palestine and Team Israel often defends against these double standards by mirroring them. Its an important distinction. Its a call and response. It looks like both sides are contributing equally to the double standards, but in reality one is provoking and one is defending. While there are occasional Team Israel members who post unsavory ideas, I don't believe that any on Team Israel fundamentally believe that the Palestinian people have no right to exist, have no right to self-determination and have no right to a State. Where this is the foundation of nearly everyone on Team Palestine (you being the notable exception).

But you being the reasonable person you are, might be able to convince me. You'd have to bring examples, though. It would be a worthy conversation, if you are interested. I always enjoy debating with you.

As long as I've been here I've heard the same arguments rehashed over and over and well...you know: Jewish Invaders! Arab Squatters! We need to move past it, just like we need to move past "Israel's right to exist". Regardless of how one feels about it's founding, it's here, been here now for generations as a state, and it's not going anywhere, so move on.

Could not possibly agree with you more! I've often said that the actual, practical problems are easy to solve. Its the ideology that is problematic.

I thought about examples, so, I'll try to put them in an organized fashion - these are just some.

When a person denies the existence of a people as a people, what is the motivation behind it? Most often, it is to delegitimize them in some way. In the IP conflict it's to delegitimize their right to be in a certain area. This is most often expressed in terms like:
they are a fake people
they are an invented people
they are immigrants and invaders
they have no inherent right to exist or to self determination

Some of the Pro-Israeli comments that have supported this (including even the irradication of a religion) include:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/16109029/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/16041663/
Israeli illegal settlements

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/13365440/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15014695/

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15886265/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15542663/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15478165/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/14315588/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/14232927/

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15993547/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15707673/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15671204/




Disclaimer: because someone will automatically jump in and say "but the pro-Pali's....." - this is not to say the Pro-P side doesn't do the same

Big deal. No side is clean from doing this. Israel or the Palestinians.

So-effing-what.

Exactly. Kind of why I put in a disclaimer...

My reply was specifically to Shusha who asked me to provide examples. Why does that bother you so much?

 

[Lipush]

Don't you think though, that the double standard is prevalent on both sides?

No, I don't. Not prevalent on both sides. I think most of the double standards are presented by Team Palestine and Team Israel often defends against these double standards by mirroring them. Its an important distinction. Its a call and response. It looks like both sides are contributing equally to the double standards, but in reality one is provoking and one is defending. While there are occasional Team Israel members who post unsavory ideas, I don't believe that any on Team Israel fundamentally believe that the Palestinian people have no right to exist, have no right to self-determination and have no right to a State. Where this is the foundation of nearly everyone on Team Palestine (you being the notable exception).

But you being the reasonable person you are, might be able to convince me. You'd have to bring examples, though. It would be a worthy conversation, if you are interested. I always enjoy debating with you.

As long as I've been here I've heard the same arguments rehashed over and over and well...you know: Jewish Invaders! Arab Squatters! We need to move past it, just like we need to move past "Israel's right to exist". Regardless of how one feels about it's founding, it's here, been here now for generations as a state, and it's not going anywhere, so move on.

Could not possibly agree with you more! I've often said that the actual, practical problems are easy to solve. Its the ideology that is problematic.

I thought about examples, so, I'll try to put them in an organized fashion - these are just some.

When a person denies the existence of a people as a people, what is the motivation behind it? Most often, it is to delegitimize them in some way. In the IP conflict it's to delegitimize their right to be in a certain area. This is most often expressed in terms like:
they are a fake people
they are an invented people
they are immigrants and invaders
they have no inherent right to exist or to self determination

Some of the Pro-Israeli comments that have supported this (including even the irradication of a religion) include:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/16109029/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/16041663/
Israeli illegal settlements

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/13365440/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15014695/

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15886265/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15542663/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15478165/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/14315588/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/14232927/

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15993547/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15707673/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15671204/




Disclaimer: because someone will automatically jump in and say "but the pro-Pali's....." - this is not to say the Pro-P side doesn't do the same

Big deal. No side is clean from doing this. Israel or the Palestinians.

So-effing-what.

Exactly. Kind of why I put in a disclaimer...

My reply was specifically to Shusha who asked me to provide examples. Why does that bother you so much?

I'm not bothered by it. As a matter of fact, I find it amusing.

If there is such thing as denying the other side's existence (I "sin" with it myself, at times, will not try to be a hypocrite, here) but my drandmother's ID said she has citizenship in "Palestine" but with the independence she became an Israeli. So I guess following that logic we're all "Israeli-Palestinians" and that whole conflict is pointless.

 

[Coyote]

Don't you think though, that the double standard is prevalent on both sides?

No, I don't. Not prevalent on both sides. I think most of the double standards are presented by Team Palestine and Team Israel often defends against these double standards by mirroring them. Its an important distinction. Its a call and response. It looks like both sides are contributing equally to the double standards, but in reality one is provoking and one is defending. While there are occasional Team Israel members who post unsavory ideas, I don't believe that any on Team Israel fundamentally believe that the Palestinian people have no right to exist, have no right to self-determination and have no right to a State. Where this is the foundation of nearly everyone on Team Palestine (you being the notable exception).

But you being the reasonable person you are, might be able to convince me. You'd have to bring examples, though. It would be a worthy conversation, if you are interested. I always enjoy debating with you.

As long as I've been here I've heard the same arguments rehashed over and over and well...you know: Jewish Invaders! Arab Squatters! We need to move past it, just like we need to move past "Israel's right to exist". Regardless of how one feels about it's founding, it's here, been here now for generations as a state, and it's not going anywhere, so move on.

Could not possibly agree with you more! I've often said that the actual, practical problems are easy to solve. Its the ideology that is problematic.

I thought about examples, so, I'll try to put them in an organized fashion - these are just some.

When a person denies the existence of a people as a people, what is the motivation behind it? Most often, it is to delegitimize them in some way. In the IP conflict it's to delegitimize their right to be in a certain area. This is most often expressed in terms like:
they are a fake people
they are an invented people
they are immigrants and invaders
they have no inherent right to exist or to self determination

Some of the Pro-Israeli comments that have supported this (including even the irradication of a religion) include:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/16109029/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/16041663/
Israeli illegal settlements

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/13365440/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15014695/

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15886265/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15542663/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15478165/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/14315588/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/14232927/

http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15993547/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15707673/
http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/15671204/




Disclaimer: because someone will automatically jump in and say "but the pro-Pali's....." - this is not to say the Pro-P side doesn't do the same

Big deal. No side is clean from doing this. Israel or the Palestinians.

So-effing-what.

Exactly. Kind of why I put in a disclaimer...

My reply was specifically to Shusha who asked me to provide examples. Why does that bother you so much?

I'm not bothered by it. As a matter of fact, I find it amusing.

If there is such thing as denying the other side's existence (I "sin" with it myself, at times, will not try to be a hypocrite, here) but my drandmother's ID said she has citizenship in "Palestine" but with the independence she became an Israeli. So I guess following that logic we're all "Israeli-Palestinians" and that whole conflict is pointless.

Wish more people thought that way!

 

[rhodescholar]

No. It doesnt. It says nothing about "massive" immigration. It says what is known was that SOME migration took place, and lot of it was the internal move.ent of people from mountainous areas to coastal areas.

If you are so fucking stupid to deny the massive arab muslim pop increase, as shown by the Turkish, British and UN census' taken show, then you're really too stupid to even begin to participate in this thread. Sorry asshole, but that's a well known fact that the pro-arab muslim terror apolgist filth including you is not going to be able to BS away. So sick of lying fucking trash like you.

 

[Coyote]

No. It doesnt. It says nothing about "massive" immigration. It says what is known was that SOME migration took place, and lot of it was the internal move.ent of people from mountainous areas to coastal areas.

If you are so fucking stupid to deny the massive arab muslim pop increase, as shown by the Turkish, British and UN census' taken show, then you're really too stupid to even begin to participate in this thread. Sorry asshole, but that's a well known fact that the pro-arab muslim terror apolgist filth including you is not going to be able to BS away. So sick of lying fucking trash like you.

You have the trashiest mouth of anyone on this forum and frankly not worth the interaction. As my source said - your claims (Peters) are not born out and data is not very reliable from that period.

 

[rhodescholar]

You have the trashiest mouth of anyone on this forum and frankly not worth the interaction. As my source said - your claims (Peters) are not born out and data is not very reliable from that period.

Oh, fuck off. Weak minded people like you will use any excuse to run and deflect when under heavy fire. That you ignored the article I linked which proved the whole "palestinian" issue is a KGB-manufactured fraud is quite telling. And the precise accuracy of the census data is not relevant; the FACTS that:

1) the vast majority of arab muslims who live in Israel/WB/gaza immigrated there
2) arab muslims will not tolerate the sovereignty of anyone else in the mideast
3) arab muslims are ethnically cleansing all non-muslims out of the mideast, such as the coptics, maronites, chaldeans, maneachans, assyrians, bahai, azeri, jews, etc.

There are TENS of MILLIONS of non-muslims under oppression and terrorism in the arab muslim mideast, yet fuckbags and racist trash/arab muslim vermin like you refuse to address it, and will try to solely focus on Israel, demanding it maintain a perfect human rights record/treatment of huge numbers of hostile arab muslims seeking to destroy her.

Sorry shitbag, but I'd rather spend the next 1,000 years with a foul-mouthed motherfucker who is honest, than a lying, lowlife like you who couches their lies and dishonesty in more polite language. Go back to your safe space with the other liberal/pro-arab muslim lying fucking trash. Fucking decrepit snowflake.

 

[rhodescholar]

Guess the $2 whore cannot address Ion Pacepa's article; no surprise there. Piece of lying shit.