Defining ourselves as "pro" or "anti"

[Coyote]

I don't believe there is such a thing as palestinians anymore. Its like saying there are Trans-Jordanians still among us. Formerly palestinians were of Judaic origin. The former Arab Muslim inhabitants now called Jordanians or Syrians or Arab Muslims.

But naming a subset of a group after an imaginary nonentity is a little disingenuous. It seems more part of a propaganda machine than an factual designation.

So its really not possible for me to say if I'm pro or anti palestinian, as there is no such thing as a palestinian. We have Arab Muslims living within Israel. Who will need to be separated into combatants and non combatants at which point I can honestly say I'm all for those found to be noncombatants being gradually granted equal rights and privileges as they earn them over time.

The Arab Muslim combatants should be repatriated to the countries of their origins.

On the other hand I can say without reservation that I am pro Israel in that they represent one of the greatest victories for native rights anywhere on the globe.

Huge thanks to the Judaic people for having the fortitude to not only stick up for themselves, but native people everywhere.

They don't stick up for native people's everywhere - where did you pull that from?

See
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0ahUKEwiTgMaZ9JnLAhWinYMKHSXOChsQFgg_MAU&url=https://www.quora.com/What-do-Israelis-think-about-American-Indian-tribes-rights-to-self-determination&usg=AFQjCNGyP0-qjvnPsdx86zbtou5fXJdsYA&sig2=P9asyxl2olNNPipMvYCaWg&bvm=bv.115339255,d.amc

Being mostly First Peoples myself I think I have a particularly unique view of the issues involved.

The Judaic people are hands down a first nations people. As am I.

Its the Arab Muslims who colonized the area in waves starting in about 900CE, the latest most significant wave and the majority of the population arriving in the early to mid 20th century CE

So yeah, its kinda hard for a first nations person to advocate for a colonizing race. Particularly when the colonizers are so desperate to invent a false history and pretend they are first nations peoples.

Where is Israel "sticking up for" native people's everywhere?

Native American's certainly aren't united in support for Israel:
Native American Tribal Support for the State of Israel
Native American Indians Take a Stand For Gaza - Counter Current News
Native Americans turning on Israel?

You might do a little more than a few moments research

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwikm6TJ953LAhWHmIMKHZv4CBoQFggjMAE&url=http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23722/Default.aspx&usg=AFQjCNE2V7-t3vsvfV4j4wNFF085v5TYwA&sig2=UN5U9BWq7ItMMTIgVo_y_g&bvm=bv.115339255,d.amc

=======

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwikm6TJ953LAhWHmIMKHZv4CBoQFggcMAA&url=http://unitedwithisrael.org/native-american-tribal-support-for-the-state-of-israel/&usg=AFQjCNEfrH5ibLvDHVJaw55eM31L5J4AEQ&sig2=5Est3w-cWYjfqjuL7iw1Jg&bvm=bv.115339255,d.amc

======

US opinion on Israel

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=16&ved=0ahUKEwjih9ex-J3LAhWitoMKHcoQDiE4ChAWCDowBQ&url=http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/nov/19/us-public-opinion-israel-palestine-gaza&usg=AFQjCNGYtWVj0mbCMXwA8MYEVLjF1R5vNg&sig2=BrSBri8Hhur1U-aFz2YWYg&bvm=bv.115339255,d.amc

======

Native Americans poll on the Israel issue

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjtue-C-p3LAhVI92MKHR1tAdkQFggcMAA&url=https://www.isidewith.com/poll/965598/290417082&usg=AFQjCNE8jTfj_Z0_z26GY8rQdJ5xsXRWng&sig2=ifQGo9vSvCoIUKSwNu679Q&bvm=bv.115339255,d.amc

=======

7 in 10 americans support Israel

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0ahUKEwjtue-C-p3LAhVI92MKHR1tAdkQFggoMAI&url=http://www.gallup.com/poll/181652/seven-americans-continue-view-israel-favorably.aspx&usg=AFQjCNGzWF7KzpW5qOv3SXCMMptsBzuBMg&sig2=QOPH7duaQKFvoqEUPxPZpQ&bvm=bv.115339255,d.amc

=========

Ryan Bellerose, a member of the Métis nation in Canada, wrote in the Metropolitan,

Quote

The Palestinians are not like us. Their fight is not our fight. We natives believe in bringing about change peacefully and we refuse to be affiliated with anyone who engages in violence targeting civilians. I cannot remain silent and allow the Palestinians to gain credibility at our expense by claiming commonality with us.


I cannot stand by while they trivialize our plight by tying it to theirs, which is largely self-inflicted. Our population of over 65 million was violently reduced to a mere 10 million, a slaughter unprecedented in human history. To compare that in whatever way to the Palestinians’ story is deeply offensive to me. The Palestinians did lose the land they claim is theirs, but they were repeatedly given the opportunity to build their state on it and to partner with the Jews — and they persistently refused peace overtures and chose war. We were never given that chance. We never made that choice.

End Quote

========

Polls specificaly targetting Native Americans on this issue are hard to find but being of First Nations origins myself and being involved in my community I can personally attest too just how offended we are that anyone would attempt to associate our recent past with that of the Arab Muslims of Israel.

I did the same research you did and came up with a MIXED bag of Native American support for Israel vs Palestinians in the conflict. Unlike you - I posted examples from each side I also came up with nothing indicating Israel's support for indiginous people's around the world.

More examples?
Native American Academic Group Announces Israel Boycott, Protesting on Behalf of ‘Indigenous’ Palestinian Scholars

Why I, as a Native American, support the Palestinian people | The Progressive

Mixed bag.

 

[Boston1]

Keep looking

Support for Israel among the First Nations runs about 70% or roughly parallel with the general US statistics.

In Canada the number is even greater

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwi-ntqdvZ7LAhUU_2MKHSazBg0QFggiMAE&url=http://princearthurherald.com/en/uncategorized/canadian-first-nations-groups-align-with-israel&usg=AFQjCNGz-SGGWmqOfjxkzUNoAANP54576Q&sig2=IngYOBNFgTjluwIozBNHHg&bvm=bv.115339255,d.amc

Oh and yes, you can find articles on both sides of the fence, but having followed this issue for many years my experience is that the general trend follows general US public opinion.

 

[Lipush]

Would you define yourself as pro- or anti- Israel and/or pro- or anti- Palestine?

What distinguishes the different designations?


I, personally, consider myself both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian.

Hasbara 101: try to pass yourself off as "neutral"

Pro-Palestinian shitholism: trying to classify anyone not on the "Death to Zionists" camp as "Hasbara troll".

No different than Pro-Israeli shitholism: trying to classify anyone not on the "Death to Palestinian" camp as "anti-semitic".

Nope. Most Israelis and Zionists are not in anyway in favor of "Death to Palestinians". At least not the innocent ones. That thinking is reserved to our enemies.

And "challenger" was the first one to provoke that response with the "Hasbara troll" bullshit. Take it out on him.

 

[Phoenall]

Would you define yourself as pro- or anti- Israel and/or pro- or anti- Palestine?

What distinguishes the different designations?


I, personally, consider myself both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian.

Hasbara 101: try to pass yourself off as "neutral"

Ha. Well, I am decidedly not neutral. I am very much pro-Israel. But I do think that there is a reasonable solution which will serve the Palestinians as well as the Israelis.

Ya, I'm similar except pro-Palestinian and I firmly believe any solution must include the needs and recognition of both Israel and the Palestine as states and more importantly, individual people.

Do you believe that the arab muslims should have taken up residence in the land granted to them by the LoN and not try to take the Jewish portion by violent means. Set the border of Palestine and Israel as those delineated in the mandate of Palestine.

 

[Challenger]

Would you define yourself as pro- or anti- Israel and/or pro- or anti- Palestine?

What distinguishes the different designations?


I, personally, consider myself both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian.

Hasbara 101: try to pass yourself off as "neutral"

Pro-Palestinian shitholism: trying to classify anyone not on the "Death to Zionists" camp as "Hasbara troll".

Hasbara Troll attributes

1. Supreme point of view
2. The Hasbara troll knows best
3. Condescending & Patronising
4. Socialist (Smart and ‘caring’)
5. Do not have to be Jewish but Pro-Israel
6. Internet experts
7. Narcissistic
8. Provocative
9. Dis-ruptive
10. Like to ask the questions, not answer questions
11. Control freaks
12. Inflamed by anyone being critical of Israel
13. ‘Moral’ Guardians
14. Classic insults: Anti-semite, Neo- Nazi, White Supremacist, Holocaust denier
15. Adept with social networks well trained on IT
    
    A Guide To HASBARA TROLLS

A-ha.

Whatever, terrorists supporter.

Freedom fighters, please.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Would you define yourself as pro- or anti- Israel and/or pro- or anti- Palestine?

What distinguishes the different designations?


I, personally, consider myself both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian.

Hasbara 101: try to pass yourself off as "neutral"

Pro-Palestinian shitholism: trying to classify anyone not on the "Death to Zionists" camp as "Hasbara troll".

Hasbara Troll attributes

1. Supreme point of view
2. The Hasbara troll knows best
3. Condescending & Patronising
4. Socialist (Smart and ‘caring’)
5. Do not have to be Jewish but Pro-Israel
6. Internet experts
7. Narcissistic
8. Provocative
9. Dis-ruptive
10. Like to ask the questions, not answer questions
11. Control freaks
12. Inflamed by anyone being critical of Israel
13. ‘Moral’ Guardians
14. Classic insults: Anti-semite, Neo- Nazi, White Supremacist, Holocaust denier
15. Adept with social networks well trained on IT
    
    A Guide To HASBARA TROLLS

A-ha.

Whatever, terrorists supporter.

Freedom fighters, please.

Just like crime fighters fight crime, and firefighters fight fire, people who call themselves "freedom fighters" usually end up fighting freedom.

 

[Challenger]

LOL your funny. The Judaic people most certainly still exist. As todays modern Jews. Israeli's

No such thing as "Judaic people" unless you mean "Judean people" but they were in the region when the foreign European Zionists turned up, they'd just mainly converted to Islam and are called Palestinians now.

They have a long and rich history dating back to the dawn of written history in the exact place Israel is today ;--)

Wrong again, they've got virtually nothing outside of the fantasy novels they wrote about themselves, the Bible/Torah.

Your false claim has been deconstructed in detail elsewhere.

Really, where?

But you sure do define what team your on when you make such false claims. The team who's claims require one lie after another. The Arab team.

Oh, right, but then Zionists lie.

I'm not in any "team", oh and by the way, Israel Finkelstein is the archaeologist, Norman Finkelstein is a political scientist.

Israeli is all about establishing peaceful coexistence. You and yours are all about death and destruction. Huge difference.

I'm about a Zionist free Palestine, where people of all faiths can live as equals; not possible in the current Zionist paradise or in Zionist idiology.

 

[Challenger]

Hasbara 101: try to pass yourself off as "neutral"

Pro-Palestinian shitholism: trying to classify anyone not on the "Death to Zionists" camp as "Hasbara troll".

Hasbara Troll attributes

1. Supreme point of view
2. The Hasbara troll knows best
3. Condescending & Patronising
4. Socialist (Smart and ‘caring’)
5. Do not have to be Jewish but Pro-Israel
6. Internet experts
7. Narcissistic
8. Provocative
9. Dis-ruptive
10. Like to ask the questions, not answer questions
11. Control freaks
12. Inflamed by anyone being critical of Israel
13. ‘Moral’ Guardians
14. Classic insults: Anti-semite, Neo- Nazi, White Supremacist, Holocaust denier
15. Adept with social networks well trained on IT
    
    A Guide To HASBARA TROLLS

A-ha.

Whatever, terrorists supporter.

Freedom fighters, please.

Just like crime fighters fight crime, and firefighters fight fire, people who call themselves "freedom fighters" usually end up fighting freedom.

Tell that to the "patriots" of 1776, but of course, looking at America today, I see what you mean.

 

[Challenger]

The situation between them is far too complex...

Not so much, the Zionists try to make it more complex than it really is.

 

[Phoenall]

Would you define yourself as pro- or anti- Israel and/or pro- or anti- Palestine?

What distinguishes the different designations?


I, personally, consider myself both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian.

Hasbara 101: try to pass yourself off as "neutral"

Pro-Palestinian shitholism: trying to classify anyone not on the "Death to Zionists" camp as "Hasbara troll".

Hasbara Troll attributes

1. Supreme point of view
2. The Hasbara troll knows best
3. Condescending & Patronising
4. Socialist (Smart and ‘caring’)
5. Do not have to be Jewish but Pro-Israel
6. Internet experts
7. Narcissistic
8. Provocative
9. Dis-ruptive
10. Like to ask the questions, not answer questions
11. Control freaks
12. Inflamed by anyone being critical of Israel
13. ‘Moral’ Guardians
14. Classic insults: Anti-semite, Neo- Nazi, White Supremacist, Holocaust denier
15. Adept with social networks well trained on IT
    
    A Guide To HASBARA TROLLS

A-ha.

Whatever, terrorists supporter.

Freedom fighters, please.

Freedom fighters don't target schoolchildren or fire illegal weapons at civilians like the Palestinians do, so terrorist supporter is the correct term.

 

[Phoenall]

The situation between them is far too complex...

Not so much, the Zionists try to make it more complex than it really is.

What could be simpler than the legal sovereign land owners in 1917 granted 22% of the land to the Jews as their NATIONal home. This became international law meaning the arab muslims should either give up their violence or move to the arab section of Palestine. That is if they will have them back after trying to steal the land from them.

 

[Boston1]

Would you define yourself as pro- or anti- Israel and/or pro- or anti- Palestine?

What distinguishes the different designations?


I, personally, consider myself both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian.

Hasbara 101: try to pass yourself off as "neutral"

Pro-Palestinian shitholism: trying to classify anyone not on the "Death to Zionists" camp as "Hasbara troll".

No different than Pro-Israeli shitholism: trying to classify anyone not on the "Death to Palestinian" camp as "anti-semitic".

Nope. Most Israelis and Zionists are not in anyway in favor of "Death to Palestinians". At least not the innocent ones. That thinking is reserved to our enemies.

And "challenger" was the first one to provoke that response with the "Hasbara troll" bullshit. Take it out on him.

I couldn't agree more.

I have repeatedly stated that I'd like to see the rights of the individual be respected exactly as specified within the Geneva Conventions.

Which is why I'd define myself as pro Israeli and pro individual.

I'd question the existence of a race or a people called palestinian other than as a roman reference to the Judaic people of the past.

Ergo I cannot in good conscience say I'm pro pali, when pali's no longer exist. They are now either Jordanians, Arab Muslims or Israeli's.

 

[Coyote]

Would you define yourself as pro- or anti- Israel and/or pro- or anti- Palestine?

What distinguishes the different designations?


I, personally, consider myself both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian.

Hasbara 101: try to pass yourself off as "neutral"

Pro-Palestinian shitholism: trying to classify anyone not on the "Death to Zionists" camp as "Hasbara troll".

No different than Pro-Israeli shitholism: trying to classify anyone not on the "Death to Palestinian" camp as "anti-semitic".

Nope. Most Israelis and Zionists are not in anyway in favor of "Death to Palestinians". At least not the innocent ones. That thinking is reserved to our enemies.

And "challenger" was the first one to provoke that response with the "Hasbara troll" bullshit. Take it out on him.

Not if you read the stuff on these boards and how quickly folks get classified as "jew hater" and anti-semite.

 

[Coyote]

Would you define yourself as pro- or anti- Israel and/or pro- or anti- Palestine?

What distinguishes the different designations?


I, personally, consider myself both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian.

Hasbara 101: try to pass yourself off as "neutral"

Ha. Well, I am decidedly not neutral. I am very much pro-Israel. But I do think that there is a reasonable solution which will serve the Palestinians as well as the Israelis.

Ya, I'm similar except pro-Palestinian and I firmly believe any solution must include the needs and recognition of both Israel and the Palestine as states and more importantly, individual people.

Do you believe that the arab muslims should have taken up residence in the land granted to them by the LoN and not try to take the Jewish portion by violent means. Set the border of Palestine and Israel as those delineated in the mandate of Palestine.

I believe that the people should take up residence where they've had their residence, not being forceably expelled and having their lands confiscated.

 

[fanger]

Would you define yourself as pro- or anti- Israel and/or pro- or anti- Palestine?

What distinguishes the different designations?


I, personally, consider myself both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian.

Hasbara 101: try to pass yourself off as "neutral"

Pro-Palestinian shitholism: trying to classify anyone not on the "Death to Zionists" camp as "Hasbara troll".

No different than Pro-Israeli shitholism: trying to classify anyone not on the "Death to Palestinian" camp as "anti-semitic".

Nope. Most Israelis and Zionists are not in anyway in favor of "Death to Palestinians". At least not the innocent ones. That thinking is reserved to our enemies.

And "challenger" was the first one to provoke that response with the "Hasbara troll" bullshit. Take it out on him.

I couldn't agree more.

I have repeatedly stated that I'd like to see the rights of the individual be respected exactly as specified within the Geneva Conventions.

Which is why I'd define myself as pro Israeli and pro individual.

I'd question the existence of a race or a people called palestinian other than as a roman reference to the Judaic people of the past.

Ergo I cannot in good conscience say I'm pro pali, when pali's no longer exist. They are now either Jordanians, Arab Muslims or Israeli's.

Who are you to say if Palestinians exist or not, if a man identifies as a women, or a person classified at birth as Female chooses to be identified as a male, who are you to state they don´t exist?

 

[Shusha]

Not if you read the stuff on these boards and how quickly folks get classified as "jew hater" and anti-semite.

Since I've been here I've mostly been hanging out in IP so I have limited experience with the whole board. But I'm surprised at how often folks deserve these classifications.

That said, name-calling and labeling is ultimately unproductive, whether its jew hater or islamonazi or zionut. I would much rather have a higher level of conversation than that kind of schoolyard stuff.

 

[Coyote]

Not if you read the stuff on these boards and how quickly folks get classified as "jew hater" and anti-semite.

Since I've been here I've mostly been hanging out in IP so I have limited experience with the whole board. But I'm surprised at how often folks deserve these classifications.

That said, name-calling and labeling is ultimately unproductive, whether its jew hater or islamonazi or zionut. I would much rather have a higher level of conversation than that kind of schoolyard stuff.

I think once you start labeling - then people get "stuck" and it no longer matters what they say, or, even if later they change their minds through debate because they are forever labeled.

I see a lot of generic Jew-bashing, but it's from a fairly small number of dedicated people, I see a lot of anger at Israel, but not directed at Jews in general. The IP conflict does tend to give anti-semitism a vehicle to "legitimize" their hate and conspiracy theories, hiding it in arguments against Israel. I also see a lot of anti-Islamism, and it's much more widely supported, and there again - if you argue against broad brushing, or conspiracy-theory logic, you get labeled.

 

[Phoenall]

Would you define yourself as pro- or anti- Israel and/or pro- or anti- Palestine?

What distinguishes the different designations?


I, personally, consider myself both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian.

Hasbara 101: try to pass yourself off as "neutral"

Pro-Palestinian shitholism: trying to classify anyone not on the "Death to Zionists" camp as "Hasbara troll".

No different than Pro-Israeli shitholism: trying to classify anyone not on the "Death to Palestinian" camp as "anti-semitic".

Nope. Most Israelis and Zionists are not in anyway in favor of "Death to Palestinians". At least not the innocent ones. That thinking is reserved to our enemies.

And "challenger" was the first one to provoke that response with the "Hasbara troll" bullshit. Take it out on him.

Not if you read the stuff on these boards and how quickly folks get classified as "jew hater" and anti-semite.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and tastes nice with orange sauce then it is a duck.

And I suppose that team Palestine is squeaky clean, and you don't throw around childish names when you cant break the argument.

 

[Phoenall]

Would you define yourself as pro- or anti- Israel and/or pro- or anti- Palestine?

What distinguishes the different designations?


I, personally, consider myself both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian.

Hasbara 101: try to pass yourself off as "neutral"

Ha. Well, I am decidedly not neutral. I am very much pro-Israel. But I do think that there is a reasonable solution which will serve the Palestinians as well as the Israelis.

Ya, I'm similar except pro-Palestinian and I firmly believe any solution must include the needs and recognition of both Israel and the Palestine as states and more importantly, individual people.

Do you believe that the arab muslims should have taken up residence in the land granted to them by the LoN and not try to take the Jewish portion by violent means. Set the border of Palestine and Israel as those delineated in the mandate of Palestine.

I believe that the people should take up residence where they've had their residence, not being forceably expelled and having their lands confiscated.

So when did they acquire these lands as I cant find any mention in any international treaties of the Ottomans or LoN handing sovereignty to the arab muslims. The laws back in 1923, 1948 and 1967 were very simple. If you did not have sovereignty of the land then it was not yours, and you could be evicted at any time. The arab muslims were nomadic farm workers that followed the harvests and lived in tent cities, they did not live on the land permanently. Once this is understood the rest falls into place very easily

 

[Uncensored2008]

Would you define yourself as pro- or anti- Israel and/or pro- or anti- Palestine?

What distinguishes the different designations?


I, personally, consider myself both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian.

I am Pro-England.

I am Pro-France.

I believe each have the right to exist, and the right to run their nation as they see fit.

"Palestine," like "Mid-West" or "Arctic" references a region, not a country. Arab Palestine is Jordan.

I am Pro-Jordan.