Enlisted combat pilots? The Air Force is launching a test that could lead to that.

[airplanemechanic]

I have a funny lighthearted story about my dads service.

He enlisted out of ROTC and came in as an officer because he had a degree. He outranked guys there 20 years simply because he was an officer. But he wasn't into all that crap. He was like Hawkeye on MASH. These 20 year guys would walk up to him and salute and he'd been there a week. He'd just stick out his hand and say whats up. He would salute like Hawkeye, with like one finger and a nod of the head. He did his minimum time and got out. It was not his thing.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I have a funny lighthearted story about my dads service.

He enlisted out of ROTC and came in as an officer because he had a degree. He outranked guys there 20 years simply because he was an officer. But he wasn't into all that crap. He was like Hawkeye on MASH. These 20 year guys would walk up to him and salute and he'd been there a week. He'd just stick out his hand and say whats up. He would salute like Hawkeye, with like one finger and a nod of the head. He did his minimum time and got out. It was not his thing.

Well, the power gets to many people's heads. You don't get power because of your stripes, you get power because you get the support of others and can lead them well.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I have a funny lighthearted story about my dads service.

He enlisted out of ROTC and came in as an officer because he had a degree. He outranked guys there 20 years simply because he was an officer. But he wasn't into all that crap. He was like Hawkeye on MASH. These 20 year guys would walk up to him and salute and he'd been there a week. He'd just stick out his hand and say whats up. He would salute like Hawkeye, with like one finger and a nod of the head. He did his minimum time and got out. It was not his thing.

I don't think he "enlisted" out of ROTC. If he completed the program, he would have received a commission.

As someone who was enlisted and went through ROTC to get my commission, I find your father's attitude rather strange. It would be disrespectful to the traditions and order and discipline of the military for him to act the way you say he did. With respect to your father, if it was not his "thing", he never should have joined in the first place.

The officer-enlisted relationship is sometimes complicated. One of my daughter's best friends is enlisting in the Army while she is already an officer. That will change their relationship especially if they were to be stationed at the same post.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

He's a self admitted Nuke bubblehead and they are the geeks de tutti geeks and they do get promoted rapidly.

Enlisted combat pilots? The Air Force is launching a test that could lead to that.

The Air Force is launching a new pilot training program that will include enlisted airmen — and could eventually lead to them flying combat aircraft.

Maj. Gen. Timothy Leahy, commander of the Second Air Force, said in a Nov. 30 email to his commanders that 15 officers and 5 enlisted airmen will be picked for the six-month pilot training program.

“Enlisted volunteers will be pioneers in innovating Air Force aviator recruitment, selection, and training processes by demonstrating the potential of non-college graduates to succeed in a rigorous pilot training environment,” Leahy wrote. “This program will provide data to [Air
Education and Training Command commander Lt. Gen. Steven Kwast] on the potential for enlisted members to train to fly modern combat aircraft.”

One of the reasons to have officers as pilots is that you want people who can make the right decisions, especially with xpensive equipment and potentially using nuclear weapons.

If a person is qualified Rank really doesn't come into play. Besides, I am sure that there are thousands of Enlisted Troops that can qualify as Cargo Plane Pilots, Navs and Copilots and do a bangup job. I might question if they could be qualified as a Bomber Pilot (nukes) or Fighter Pilots though. There are just too many years and millions invested in those two.

Why not just make them Warrant officers like the Army?

That is an option but it doesn't address the problem of having over 1500 unfilled fighter pilot slots.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Newsflash: WOs are not commissioned. They are neither officer nor enlisted. When I retired, I was offered a WO slot in the Guards.Not as a flyer but as a manager for the Motor Pool.The last WO in the AF retired in 1971. The AF had already created the Super Sgt ranks.

Yes., Google is your friend.

Where did I say they were? You seem to enjoy putting words in other people's mouth!

You have some serious reading deficiencies.

WTF are Super Sgt ranks?

I used a term that was used in the AF in the late 60s and early 70s when the Super Sgt was created and the WO was quietly allowed to just disappear. Had you been something other than a 2 year bilge rate you would know that.

Listen up old timer, in 1970, I was 10 years old. I am now 57 and a 3-time grandfather. Your post was the first time I had ever read "Super Sgt" in my lifetime.

BTW, "Super Sergeant" is a video game, and apparently you are one of the few people who know anything else by that name.

Just FYI, I was a nuclear field electronics technician, training to be a reactor operator. Bilge rate? Not quite there Great-grandpa!

Make you a deal. You treat me with respect and I will treat you with respect. It's a two way street.

It's about time!

Careful.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

He's a self admitted Nuke bubblehead and they are the geeks de tutti geeks and they do get promoted rapidly.

Enlisted combat pilots? The Air Force is launching a test that could lead to that.

The Air Force is launching a new pilot training program that will include enlisted airmen — and could eventually lead to them flying combat aircraft.

Maj. Gen. Timothy Leahy, commander of the Second Air Force, said in a Nov. 30 email to his commanders that 15 officers and 5 enlisted airmen will be picked for the six-month pilot training program.

“Enlisted volunteers will be pioneers in innovating Air Force aviator recruitment, selection, and training processes by demonstrating the potential of non-college graduates to succeed in a rigorous pilot training environment,” Leahy wrote. “This program will provide data to [Air
Education and Training Command commander Lt. Gen. Steven Kwast] on the potential for enlisted members to train to fly modern combat aircraft.”

One of the reasons to have officers as pilots is that you want people who can make the right decisions, especially with xpensive equipment and potentially using nuclear weapons.

If a person is qualified Rank really doesn't come into play. Besides, I am sure that there are thousands of Enlisted Troops that can qualify as Cargo Plane Pilots, Navs and Copilots and do a bangup job. I might question if they could be qualified as a Bomber Pilot (nukes) or Fighter Pilots though. There are just too many years and millions invested in those two.

Why not just make them Warrant officers like the Army?

That is an option but it doesn't address the problem of having over 1500 unfilled fighter pilot slots.

Why doesn't it?

 

[Geaux4it]

I think it's a great idea. The Army used to have the Aviation Warrant Officer flight school for rotorcraft and it worked out great

-Geaux

 

[KissMy]

How about someone to pilot the mars space ship?

No Human or living thing can go to Mars at this time. The various types of Radiation in deep space will kill then in weeks. This was first noticed during the missions to the moon. just 3 days there and 3 back wasn't enough to threaten lives. But they experienced the radiation and particles never the less.

Fly through the doughnut hole in the Van Allen Radiation Belts.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

He's a self admitted Nuke bubblehead and they are the geeks de tutti geeks and they do get promoted rapidly.

Enlisted combat pilots? The Air Force is launching a test that could lead to that.

The Air Force is launching a new pilot training program that will include enlisted airmen — and could eventually lead to them flying combat aircraft.

Maj. Gen. Timothy Leahy, commander of the Second Air Force, said in a Nov. 30 email to his commanders that 15 officers and 5 enlisted airmen will be picked for the six-month pilot training program.

“Enlisted volunteers will be pioneers in innovating Air Force aviator recruitment, selection, and training processes by demonstrating the potential of non-college graduates to succeed in a rigorous pilot training environment,” Leahy wrote. “This program will provide data to [Air
Education and Training Command commander Lt. Gen. Steven Kwast] on the potential for enlisted members to train to fly modern combat aircraft.”

One of the reasons to have officers as pilots is that you want people who can make the right decisions, especially with xpensive equipment and potentially using nuclear weapons.

If a person is qualified Rank really doesn't come into play. Besides, I am sure that there are thousands of Enlisted Troops that can qualify as Cargo Plane Pilots, Navs and Copilots and do a bangup job. I might question if they could be qualified as a Bomber Pilot (nukes) or Fighter Pilots though. There are just too many years and millions invested in those two.

Why not just make them Warrant officers like the Army?

That is an option but it doesn't address the problem of having over 1500 unfilled fighter pilot slots.

Why doesn't it?

I don't foresee many Enlisted qualifying for a Fighter Pilot slot. The Fighter Mafia won't allow that. I believe that both of us are honorary members of the Fighter Pilot Mafia.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

He's a self admitted Nuke bubblehead and they are the geeks de tutti geeks and they do get promoted rapidly.

One of the reasons to have officers as pilots is that you want people who can make the right decisions, especially with xpensive equipment and potentially using nuclear weapons.

If a person is qualified Rank really doesn't come into play. Besides, I am sure that there are thousands of Enlisted Troops that can qualify as Cargo Plane Pilots, Navs and Copilots and do a bangup job. I might question if they could be qualified as a Bomber Pilot (nukes) or Fighter Pilots though. There are just too many years and millions invested in those two.

Why not just make them Warrant officers like the Army?

That is an option but it doesn't address the problem of having over 1500 unfilled fighter pilot slots.

Why doesn't it?

I don't foresee many Enlisted qualifying for a Fighter Pilot slot. The Fighter Mafia won't allow that. I believe that both of us are honorary members of the Fighter Pilot Mafia.

Why put the restriction on them? If they are good enough to fly a fighter, why not let them?

Again, why are you refusing to address my comment about warrant officers?

The Navy determines what you fly long after choosing you to be a pilot. Marines get very few choices as most are helo pilots.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

He's a self admitted Nuke bubblehead and they are the geeks de tutti geeks and they do get promoted rapidly.

If a person is qualified Rank really doesn't come into play. Besides, I am sure that there are thousands of Enlisted Troops that can qualify as Cargo Plane Pilots, Navs and Copilots and do a bangup job. I might question if they could be qualified as a Bomber Pilot (nukes) or Fighter Pilots though. There are just too many years and millions invested in those two.

Why not just make them Warrant officers like the Army?

That is an option but it doesn't address the problem of having over 1500 unfilled fighter pilot slots.

Why doesn't it?

I don't foresee many Enlisted qualifying for a Fighter Pilot slot. The Fighter Mafia won't allow that. I believe that both of us are honorary members of the Fighter Pilot Mafia.

Why put the restriction on them? If they are good enough to fly a fighter, why not let them?

Again, why are you refusing to address my comment about warrant officers?

The Navy determines what you fly long after choosing you to be a pilot. Marines get very few choices as most are helo pilots.

Navy, like the Marines and AF are all commisioned College Grad Officers who are flying fixed wing. While I think Fighters and Nuke Bomber Pilots should only be that, cargo planes and choppers are a different bird and enlisted should be able to handle it.

 

[Natural Citizen]

I'd recommend prep school even with a degree already in-hand. A college education isnt what it used to be. A 3.2 doesn't mean anything anymore. Respectfully speaking. The selection process is rigid. Extremely competitive, too.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

I'd recommend prep school even with a degree already in-hand. A college education isnt what it used to be. A 3.2 doesn't mean anything anymore. Respectfully speaking. The selection process is rigid. Extremely competitive, too.

I knew a number of pilot washouts. Never asked them why due to good manners and wanting to keep my bridge work. They did fine, for the most part, in the other jobs for officers that didn't require flying.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

I'd recommend prep school even with a degree already in-hand. A college education isnt what it used to be. A 3.2 doesn't mean anything anymore. Respectfully speaking. The selection process is rigid. Extremely competitive, too.

If you are going to allow enlisted to be pilots then you can narrow the search down to those enlisted with commercial, instrument and multi engined licenses. The reason for this is that if you have a person training to be a pilot, he or she will spend the next two years learning to fly the military way and it costs a couple of million bucks. You can't afford anything more that a really low washout rate. Chances are, if you have a enlisted with those qualification he spent his first 10 years or so getting on his own and his chances of passing the Military Flight School is good. He also probably sidelined his seek for college degree as well. Grab him before the Civilian Lines do.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Why not just make them Warrant officers like the Army?

That is an option but it doesn't address the problem of having over 1500 unfilled fighter pilot slots.

Why doesn't it?

I don't foresee many Enlisted qualifying for a Fighter Pilot slot. The Fighter Mafia won't allow that. I believe that both of us are honorary members of the Fighter Pilot Mafia.

Why put the restriction on them? If they are good enough to fly a fighter, why not let them?

Again, why are you refusing to address my comment about warrant officers?

The Navy determines what you fly long after choosing you to be a pilot. Marines get very few choices as most are helo pilots.

Navy, like the Marines and AF are all commisioned College Grad Officers who are flying fixed wing. While I think Fighters and Nuke Bomber Pilots should only be that, cargo planes and choppers are a different bird and enlisted should be able to handle it.

No. I think you stated that wrong. All Navy, Marine and Air Force pilots are commissioned officers, no matter what they fly. Very few Army pilots are commissioned officers. Why do you think pilots of fighters and bombers need a college degree to fly them?

The best pilots I have ever seen are the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment and they are almost all warrant officers.

I had a history degree and would have flown had I been physically qualified (bad eyes). Granted, I had been an aerospace engineering and computer science major before I had to change majors in order to graduate on time, but there is no specific degree requirements. You can be an English Lit major and be a pilot.

 

[westwall]

Enlisted combat pilots? The Air Force is launching a test that could lead to that.

The Air Force is launching a new pilot training program that will include enlisted airmen — and could eventually lead to them flying combat aircraft.

Maj. Gen. Timothy Leahy, commander of the Second Air Force, said in a Nov. 30 email to his commanders that 15 officers and 5 enlisted airmen will be picked for the six-month pilot training program.

“Enlisted volunteers will be pioneers in innovating Air Force aviator recruitment, selection, and training processes by demonstrating the potential of non-college graduates to succeed in a rigorous pilot training environment,” Leahy wrote. “This program will provide data to [Air
Education and Training Command commander Lt. Gen. Steven Kwast] on the potential for enlisted members to train to fly modern combat aircraft.”

That's nothing new. The Army had enlisted pilots as far back as 1912. They had an entire group called the "flying sergeants" that graduated in 1942 and the majority went on to fly P-38's during the war. The USMC still had enlisted pilots flying combat in the Korean conflict.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I'd recommend prep school even with a degree already in-hand. A college education isnt what it used to be. A 3.2 doesn't mean anything anymore. Respectfully speaking. The selection process is rigid. Extremely competitive, too.

If you are going to allow enlisted to be pilots then you can narrow the search down to those enlisted with commercial, instrument and multi engined licenses. The reason for this is that if you have a person training to be a pilot, he or she will spend the next two years learning to fly the military way and it costs a couple of million bucks. You can't afford anything more that a really low washout rate. Chances are, if you have a enlisted with those qualification he spent his first 10 years or so getting on his own and his chances of passing the Military Flight School is good. He also probably sidelined his seek for college degree as well. Grab him before the Civilian Lines do.

Oh please! Have you lost all sense of reality? If someone has those ratings, why in the world would they want to join the Chair Force? They'd make more money outside than they ever would in their entire career. You do know that like 80% of your commercial and cargo pilots are ex-military. That's why there is a shortage!

You really need to think about a topic before posting on it.

In 2018, an O-1 will make $3108 base pay.

A W-1 will make $3038 base pay. Not much difference, huh?

Assuming they gave them an E-5 rank to start, that's $2333 base pay.

We won't even talk about E-1 through 3 which is where most people start.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

That is an option but it doesn't address the problem of having over 1500 unfilled fighter pilot slots.

Why doesn't it?

I don't foresee many Enlisted qualifying for a Fighter Pilot slot. The Fighter Mafia won't allow that. I believe that both of us are honorary members of the Fighter Pilot Mafia.

Why put the restriction on them? If they are good enough to fly a fighter, why not let them?

Again, why are you refusing to address my comment about warrant officers?

The Navy determines what you fly long after choosing you to be a pilot. Marines get very few choices as most are helo pilots.

Navy, like the Marines and AF are all commisioned College Grad Officers who are flying fixed wing. While I think Fighters and Nuke Bomber Pilots should only be that, cargo planes and choppers are a different bird and enlisted should be able to handle it.

No. I think you stated that wrong. All Navy, Marine and Air Force pilots are commissioned officers, no matter what they fly. Very few Army pilots are commissioned officers. Why do you think pilots of fighters and bombers need a college degree to fly them?

The best pilots I have ever seen are the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment and they are almost all warrant officers.

I had a history degree and would have flown had I been physically qualified (bad eyes). Granted, I had been an aerospace engineering and computer science major before I had to change majors in order to graduate on time, but there is no specific degree requirements. You can be an English Lit major and be a pilot.

Remember when I talked about the Silver Spoon in the mouth versus the purple shaft up the rear? You had the silver spoon. Many are not that lucky. Me and another enlisted person was sent to the European War Games because we were very familiar with the game they were using. The Wing King tried to use us for training purposes but we never lost to his pilots unless a cheat factors was figured in. What we were was War Gamers who understood the game, russian tactics, navy tactics, army air tactics, Marine air tactics and AF tactics. The Pilots would come in very smudge thinking they were the best. Their asses was promptly handed to them in the nice and shiny F-15 by an A-7. How does an A-7 take out a F-15? I might tell you how later. So instead of sending pilots to the war games, they sent two enlisted gamers. In the first 12 hours of game time, we reduced the Allies to only Attack Birds. Nato lost all the things with an F preceeding it's name. Yes, we were left in the same position but that was the idea. At that time, Soviet Junk greatly out numbered Natos junk. Of course, things can change in the next 72 hours so you grab as much territory as you can fast then sit on it. Don't kill the F-15 in the air, kill it on the ground and remove the possibility of them having any runways to operate from. Standard AAF Fighter Doctrine started in late 1943. The soviets took a lot of losses doing this but in the end, it worked out good. The A-10s stayed in England, our SU-7s stayed in COEUrope. But were we qualified to be pilots? Nope. I did have a BBA but by the time I got it, I was too crippled up to ever pass a pilots flight test. And I refused getting a Lobotamy

 

[Daryl Hunt]

I'd recommend prep school even with a degree already in-hand. A college education isnt what it used to be. A 3.2 doesn't mean anything anymore. Respectfully speaking. The selection process is rigid. Extremely competitive, too.

If you are going to allow enlisted to be pilots then you can narrow the search down to those enlisted with commercial, instrument and multi engined licenses. The reason for this is that if you have a person training to be a pilot, he or she will spend the next two years learning to fly the military way and it costs a couple of million bucks. You can't afford anything more that a really low washout rate. Chances are, if you have a enlisted with those qualification he spent his first 10 years or so getting on his own and his chances of passing the Military Flight School is good. He also probably sidelined his seek for college degree as well. Grab him before the Civilian Lines do.

Oh please! Have you lost all sense of reality? If someone has those ratings, why in the world would they want to join the Chair Force? They'd make more money outside than they ever would in their entire career. You do know that like 80% of your commercial and cargo pilots are ex-military. That's why there is a shortage!

You really need to think about a topic before posting on it.

In 2018, an O-1 will make $3108 base pay.

A W-1 will make $3038 base pay. Not much difference, huh?

Assuming they gave them an E-5 rank to start, that's $2333 base pay.

We won't even talk about E-1 through 3 which is where most people start.

I served with these people. Before they started putting people in jail for such things, the over water flights on a Herky Pig just might have some stick time by one of these folks while the Pilot went to the back to relieve himself or get into the poker game.

So much for being nice. It's not worth it with you. You really need to pull your head out your ass or get that plexiglass window in your stomach installed before you post again.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Enlisted combat pilots? The Air Force is launching a test that could lead to that.

The Air Force is launching a new pilot training program that will include enlisted airmen — and could eventually lead to them flying combat aircraft.

Maj. Gen. Timothy Leahy, commander of the Second Air Force, said in a Nov. 30 email to his commanders that 15 officers and 5 enlisted airmen will be picked for the six-month pilot training program.

“Enlisted volunteers will be pioneers in innovating Air Force aviator recruitment, selection, and training processes by demonstrating the potential of non-college graduates to succeed in a rigorous pilot training environment,” Leahy wrote. “This program will provide data to [Air
Education and Training Command commander Lt. Gen. Steven Kwast] on the potential for enlisted members to train to fly modern combat aircraft.”

That's nothing new. The Army had enlisted pilots as far back as 1912. They had an entire group called the "flying sergeants" that graduated in 1942 and the majority went on to fly P-38's during the war. The USMC still had enlisted pilots flying combat in the Korean conflict.

These were poorly trained for the P-38 since they had no AC to train on the would directly get them ready for a P-38. We lost a lot of kids because of the poor P-38 training in the beginning. But those that lived became hot shot pilots. It was sad that the Pacific COs had to do the training that the students should have received in flight school. In the ETO, you got your P-38 ride and first combat at almost exactly the same time. Maybe this was just one of the reason why theP-38 was so successful in the PTO versus the ETO. The MTO took the extra time as well and the P-38 shined there as well.

I am unsure exactly when the change happened. But the Enlisted Pilots were given the choice of getting a degree (out for 4 and back in as Officer Candidates) or stop flying. I knew a couple of the old flying sgts that became flight engineers on C-124. During Korea, I was still pulling my Rosebud and Radio Flyer.