Free Currency

[bripat9643]

What the hell is a "resource standard?" Are you talking about using commodities to back currencies? The ultimate commodity is gold, and gold backed currencies will drive all other currencies out of the market. Just look at how the price of copper or oil fluctuates over the year. Do you really believe anyone would prefer that to gold?

They would be symbiotic.

You are in the mentality of one currency for one market. In ancient nations multiple currencies were acceptable. Think inflation.

Who said anything about a single currency? We would have multiple currencies, but they would all be backed by gold.

Imagine it working the way visa or mastercard work. Multiple banks issue visa or master card, but merchants all take them, no matter who issues them, so long as they have that Visa or Mastercard logo on them. Gold backed currencies could work the same way.

Theoretically, but it is all still driven by whatever the price of gold would be.

The price of gold is fixed when you use it for money. A "dollar" is defined as equivalent to a certain quantity of gold. Does the value of gold change over time? So does the value of a dollar. but if you establish a contractual relationship between the two, then they don't change with respect to each other.

Again, I'm not talking about a single currency (bank note) multiple banks could issue currency, but they would all be backed by gold. Private currencies backed by gold make inflation impossible.

You need to read "Theory of Money and Credit" by Ludwig von Mises if you really want to understand money and banking.

I thought you claimed you were an Austrian?

 

[bripat9643]

What would be the point of backing a currency with another currency that isn't backed by anything.

You have it mixed up.

You back a currency based on another currency which is backed by a resource standard.

Gold is the only thing that makes sense. There's a reason gold has been used for money for thousands of years. The process of natural selection in the market made it the de facto currency of the world.

Also silver, copper, bronze, gemstones, spices, ect.

You have to find ways to diversify the currencies in the market, or else you risk stabilizing force (which is what we have now).

Why not jewel encrusted paper clips?

What if you want to buy a soda?

 

[Onyx]

The price of gold is fixed when you use it for money. A "dollar" is defined as equivalent to a certain quantity of gold. Does the value of gold change over time? So does the value of a dollar. but if you establish a contractual relationship between the two, then they don't change with respect to each other

Again, I'm not talking about a single currency (bank note) multiple banks could issue currency, but they would all be backed by gold. Private currencies backed by gold make inflation impossible.

We obviously both agree on the gold standard.

Our disagreement is on whether other standards could survive, and also if the economy would be better under multiple currencies backed by several standards
.
I am not sure how to prove the case that other commodities could be sustainable at this point in time, but I am highly skeptical of your claim that gold is the only functional standard. What about platinum for example?

I thought you claimed you were an Austrian?

I reject the notion that I have to be in 100% agreement with the collective of Austrian economists.

The greats did not even agree on everything little detail.

By the way, there were Austrian economists that argued for exactly what I am arguing now.

 

[BULLDOG]

People are free to barter all they want, but a recognized currency is required for a functioning society.

Recognized sure. Currency only works because everyone accepts it as a means of exchange. One recognized state controlled currency? No, that is nonsense.

We live in a world with several hundred currencies, and they exchange just fine. If theoretical currency SKZ 12 is a better fit for a city than theoretical currency ZKS 7, then they should have the option to use theoretical currency SKZ 12.

This varies mediums of exchange, increases economic liberty, produces market self sufficiency, and boosts consumer choice.

Keynesian economics have failed. It is time to take the economy back for regular working class Americans.

Really dumb idea.

 

[Onyx]

Really dumb idea.

Was the government monopoly on exchange a really smart idea?

 

[bripat9643]

Businesses used to mint their own currencies in the US, as did states.

You mean banks used to print their own bank notes.

No your local stores used to mint their own coins. Due to coin hoarding especially during the civil war there was a shortage so stores minted their own coins.

The federal government has always come down on private mints. The same thing went on during the gold rush in San Francisco, but the feds eventually shut them down. It's illegal to mint coins for legal tender purposes.

 

[bripat9643]

People are free to barter all they want, but a recognized currency is required for a functioning society.

Recognized sure. Currency only works because everyone accepts it as a means of exchange. One recognized state controlled currency? No, that is nonsense.

We live in a world with several hundred currencies, and they exchange just fine. If theoretical currency SKZ 12 is a better fit for a city than theoretical currency ZKS 7, then they should have the option to use theoretical currency SKZ 12.

This varies mediums of exchange, increases economic liberty, produces market self sufficiency, and boosts consumer choice.

Keynesian economics have failed. It is time to take the economy back for regular working class Americans.

Really dumb idea.

You wouldn't know a dumb idea of you killed yourself trying to put one into practice. You're voting for Hillary, for God's sake. Talk about the dumb idea to beat all dumb ideas.

 

[bripat9643]

Which would you rather have, a gold backed currency or some fantasy currency like bitcoin backed by nothing? Everyone with a brain would choose the former. Hence, it will drive any other kind of currency out of the market. That's how most of the world ended up with gold backed currencies in the 19th century.

If you want many currencies, simply legalize private currencies. They will soon appear in abundance.

Like I said, resource standards are the safer bet.

Having a single currency backed by gold is incredibly dangerous though. You need diversity in currency to prevent stabilizing force, which means you need to have multiple currencies backed by a variety of different things. I prefer common metals, but also there are some fiat schemes which are pretty intelligent and market determinant.

If you allow a private currency backed by gold, then it will only be a matter of time before all the other currencies go out of business. That's why we didn't have such currencies in the 19th Century. They always lose out to gold backed currencies.

 

[BluesLegend]

Businesses used to mint their own currencies in the US, as did states.

You mean banks used to print their own bank notes.

No your local stores used to mint their own coins. Due to coin hoarding especially during the civil war there was a shortage so stores minted their own coins.

The federal government has always come down on private mints. The same thing went on during the gold rush in San Francisco, but the feds eventually shut them down. It's illegal to mint coins for legal tender purposes.

No its still going on, airline miles.

 

[HappyJoy]

What would be the point of backing a currency with another currency that isn't backed by anything.

You have it mixed up.

You back a currency based on another currency which is backed by a resource standard.

Gold is the only thing that makes sense. There's a reason gold has been used for money for thousands of years. The process of natural selection in the market made it the de facto currency of the world.

Also silver, copper, bronze, gemstones, spices, ect.

You have to find ways to diversify the currencies in the market, or else you risk stabilizing force (which is what we have now).

Why not jewel encrusted paper clips?

What if you want to buy a soda?

Don't, they're bad for you.

But if you insist, feel free to barter with 7/11 in bottle caps and see how it goes.

 

[HappyJoy]

Can't pay your taxes with monopoly money so the need for US currency will always be around. It's trusted, everyone uses it, everyone will continue to use it and some form of 'free currency' just won't be able to compete. Either within our country and also the value of the dollar internationally.

However if you want to trade bottle caps with your friends then nobody is stopping you.

Federal reserve notes are monopoly money. Before legal tender laws people paid their taxes with private bank notes. You claim is certifiably false.

No it's not false. Today federal and state governments are not going to accept a frickin' bank note, let alone 'free currency' to pay your taxes with.

It actually could be more expansive to have multiple currencies as somewhere down the line someone has to be paid to trade in your bottle caps for cash.

Most Americans (let's call them the normals) see no need for an additional currency so in fact it would turn into nothing more than another bitcoin racket where you're going to have a hard time finding someone to accept it.

You are a complete economic ignoramus. The government will accept whatever the voters tell them to accept. If legal tender laws are repealed, government will have no other option.

Thanks for agreeing with me, the federal government will only accept money to pay your taxes with. Good luck getting voters to change that.

We aren't discussing whether the idea is political feasible, moron.

Multiple currencies are no more expensive than single currencies, just as having multiple credit cards is no more expensive than having a single credit card. Allowing the government to have a monopoly on bank notes is what gives the government the ability to loot everyone blind. That's precisely why statist bootlickers like you oppose private currencies.

Currency and credit cards isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison. However if you are saying there is no cost to using a credit card in a transaction than you aren't thinking it through. The merchant usually pays around 2% of every transaction. If the purchase is in a foreign currency than the card company will often times charge the card holder an additional fee to convert the transaction into US dollars. It costs money.

No one said there wasn't a cost involved. There's always a cost to everything we do. The question is do we gain anything by giving the government a monopoly on printing money. The answer is no, there is no cost advantage, and there's a huge downside when you consider the government's ability to debase or money.

The fact that most Americans don't see the advantage of having private currencies is the result of being dumbed down by brainwashing in government schools.

Not really, the need isn't there. Nobody is getting screwed by using the dollar unless you just happen to feel like not paying taxes.

We are all getting screwed by using the dollar. You're just too fucking stupid to know it. You're exactly the kind of economic illiterate I'm talking about.

Just consider what the dollar was worth in 1920 compared to what it's worth now. That's how badly we are getting screwed.

Maybe rewrite you post, you're contradicting yourself everywhere.

Ultimately, you're you and everyone else is going to pay their taxes in US dollars, therefore it's always going to be the easiest currency to use in this country. When you add additional transactions to convert bottle caps into cash there is a cost involved that doesn't exist if you just use the dollar to begin with. There is no upside to use another currency at the transaction level, it would just be a pain in the ass.

 

[HappyJoy]

Businesses used to mint their own currencies in the US, as did states.

You mean banks used to print their own bank notes.

No your local stores used to mint their own coins. Due to coin hoarding especially during the civil war there was a shortage so stores minted their own coins.

The federal government has always come down on private mints. The same thing went on during the gold rush in San Francisco, but the feds eventually shut them down. It's illegal to mint coins for legal tender purposes.

No its still going on, airline miles.

Buy groceries with your airline miles and let us know what happens. Ultimately, your miles are converted into cash and it's not even close to a dollar for dollar value outside of discounting airline tickets.

 

[Norman]

Federal reserve notes are monopoly money. Before legal tender laws people paid their taxes with private bank notes. You claim is certifiably false.

No it's not false. Today federal and state governments are not going to accept a frickin' bank note, let alone 'free currency' to pay your taxes with.

It actually could be more expansive to have multiple currencies as somewhere down the line someone has to be paid to trade in your bottle caps for cash.

Most Americans (let's call them the normals) see no need for an additional currency so in fact it would turn into nothing more than another bitcoin racket where you're going to have a hard time finding someone to accept it.

You are a complete economic ignoramus. The government will accept whatever the voters tell them to accept. If legal tender laws are repealed, government will have no other option.

Thanks for agreeing with me, the federal government will only accept money to pay your taxes with. Good luck getting voters to change that.

We aren't discussing whether the idea is political feasible, moron.

Multiple currencies are no more expensive than single currencies, just as having multiple credit cards is no more expensive than having a single credit card. Allowing the government to have a monopoly on bank notes is what gives the government the ability to loot everyone blind. That's precisely why statist bootlickers like you oppose private currencies.

Currency and credit cards isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison. However if you are saying there is no cost to using a credit card in a transaction than you aren't thinking it through. The merchant usually pays around 2% of every transaction. If the purchase is in a foreign currency than the card company will often times charge the card holder an additional fee to convert the transaction into US dollars. It costs money.

No one said there wasn't a cost involved. There's always a cost to everything we do. The question is do we gain anything by giving the government a monopoly on printing money. The answer is no, there is no cost advantage, and there's a huge downside when you consider the government's ability to debase or money.

The fact that most Americans don't see the advantage of having private currencies is the result of being dumbed down by brainwashing in government schools.

Not really, the need isn't there. Nobody is getting screwed by using the dollar unless you just happen to feel like not paying taxes.

We are all getting screwed by using the dollar. You're just too fucking stupid to know it. You're exactly the kind of economic illiterate I'm talking about.

Just consider what the dollar was worth in 1920 compared to what it's worth now. That's how badly we are getting screwed.

Maybe rewrite you post, you're contradicting yourself everywhere.

Ultimately, you're you and everyone else is going to pay their taxes in US dollars, therefore it's always going to be the easiest currency to use in this country. When you add additional transactions to convert bottle caps into cash there is a cost involved that doesn't exist if you just use the dollar to begin with. There is no upside to use another currency at the transaction level, it would just be a pain in the ass.

What an idiotic flawed response. It's obvious that this person prefers government money because it helps spread his authoritarian ideology.

Obviously taxes could be collected in other currencies, so that's not much of an argument you got there, even if not have you heard of an exchange market? Secondly, who are you to tell what is and what isn't beneficial to individuals? Classic authoritarian liberal telling other people how to live, while being helpless himself. I doubt you could even run a lemonade stand so shut up.

And if it wasn't clear by now, there ARE many benefits in not transacting with government money. Why do you think people use bit coin? Apparently it's only a downside so that's why...

 

[HappyJoy]

No it's not false. Today federal and state governments are not going to accept a frickin' bank note, let alone 'free currency' to pay your taxes with.

It actually could be more expansive to have multiple currencies as somewhere down the line someone has to be paid to trade in your bottle caps for cash.

Most Americans (let's call them the normals) see no need for an additional currency so in fact it would turn into nothing more than another bitcoin racket where you're going to have a hard time finding someone to accept it.

You are a complete economic ignoramus. The government will accept whatever the voters tell them to accept. If legal tender laws are repealed, government will have no other option.

Thanks for agreeing with me, the federal government will only accept money to pay your taxes with. Good luck getting voters to change that.

We aren't discussing whether the idea is political feasible, moron.

Multiple currencies are no more expensive than single currencies, just as having multiple credit cards is no more expensive than having a single credit card. Allowing the government to have a monopoly on bank notes is what gives the government the ability to loot everyone blind. That's precisely why statist bootlickers like you oppose private currencies.

Currency and credit cards isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison. However if you are saying there is no cost to using a credit card in a transaction than you aren't thinking it through. The merchant usually pays around 2% of every transaction. If the purchase is in a foreign currency than the card company will often times charge the card holder an additional fee to convert the transaction into US dollars. It costs money.

No one said there wasn't a cost involved. There's always a cost to everything we do. The question is do we gain anything by giving the government a monopoly on printing money. The answer is no, there is no cost advantage, and there's a huge downside when you consider the government's ability to debase or money.

The fact that most Americans don't see the advantage of having private currencies is the result of being dumbed down by brainwashing in government schools.

Not really, the need isn't there. Nobody is getting screwed by using the dollar unless you just happen to feel like not paying taxes.

We are all getting screwed by using the dollar. You're just too fucking stupid to know it. You're exactly the kind of economic illiterate I'm talking about.

Just consider what the dollar was worth in 1920 compared to what it's worth now. That's how badly we are getting screwed.

Maybe rewrite you post, you're contradicting yourself everywhere.

Ultimately, you're you and everyone else is going to pay their taxes in US dollars, therefore it's always going to be the easiest currency to use in this country. When you add additional transactions to convert bottle caps into cash there is a cost involved that doesn't exist if you just use the dollar to begin with. There is no upside to use another currency at the transaction level, it would just be a pain in the ass.

What an idiotic flawed response. It's obvious that this person prefers government money because it helps spread his authoritarian ideology.

^conspiracy.

Obviously taxes could be collected in other currencies, so that's not much of an argument you got there, even if not have you heard of an exchange market? Secondly, who are you to tell what is and what isn't beneficial to individuals? Classic authoritarian liberal telling other people how to live, while being helpless himself. I doubt you could even run a lemonade stand so shut up.

Name the currencies the US government will accept for taxes. And giving an opinion is not authoritarian, that's a joke, right?

And if it wasn't clear by now, there ARE many benefits in not transacting with government money. Why do you think people use bit coin? Apparently it's only a downside so that's why...

Most people don't use bitcoin, most merchants don't accept bitcoin, most people don't give 2 shits about bitcoin. The world wouldn't change much if bitcoin didn't exist tomorrow.

 

[Onyx]

If you allow a private currency backed by gold, then it will only be a matter of time before all the other currencies go out of business. That's why we didn't have such currencies in the 19th Century. They always lose out to gold backed currencies.

All gold standard currency eventually lost out to fiat as well, so that argument does not work.

Nations did actually have the silver standard in the 19th century, and it was proposed alongside the gold standard to act as an inflation hedge in the 20th century.

Private currencies backed by gold make inflation impossible.

This is where you lost me.

Are you honestly suggesting there would be no inflation or deflation of prices?

 

[Onyx]

Don't, they're bad for you.

But if you insist, feel free to barter with 7/11 in bottle caps and see how it goes.

You do realize that the point of this thread is to promote a world where private enterprises like 7/11 could accept multiple recognized currencies?

Your argument is a status quo bias.

 

[HappyJoy]

Don't, they're bad for you.

But if you insist, feel free to barter with 7/11 in bottle caps and see how it goes.

You do realize that the point of this thread is to promote a world where private enterprises like 7/11 could accept multiple recognized currencies?

Your argument is a status quo bias.

You're argument is probably based in an anti-government bias.

As far as I know, 7/11 isn't interested or care to promote a multi-currency economy. Literally nobody is promoting a 'free currency' except anti-government types who believe in 9/11 or other odd conspiracies.

 

[Onyx]

And if it wasn't clear by now, there ARE many benefits in not transacting with government money. Why do you think people use bit coin? Apparently it's only a downside so that's why...

The US state tries to keep the whole worlds currency in check

It is pretty clear that the FBI was specifically targeting bitcoin, evidenced by how they were seizing immense sums of them in cyber raids.

I would not be surprised if the government was operating several secret bitcoin mining facilities trying to make it play nicely. It is an important currency in the black market drug trade, and drugs are another thing the US has long had a monopoly on.

 

[Onyx]

As far as I know, 7/11 isn't interested or care to promote a multi-currency economy.

Their opinion is irrelevant. All that matters is economics.

Like I pointed out though, mega corporations would reject a free currency economy. Honest capitalism is not in their interests.

Literally nobody is promoting a 'free currency' except anti-government types

You mean those enlightened few with an actual brain?

 

[HappyJoy]

As far as I know, 7/11 isn't interested or care to promote a multi-currency economy.

Their opinion is irrelevant. All that matters is economics.

Nobody's opinion is irreverent. 7/11, most retailers and pretty much most citizens aren't interested in another currency. The worst thing that could happen is corporations start their own currency and pay their employees with it. What a monumental pain in the ass that would be. You'd have to spend a portion of your paycheck just to exchange your paycheck for a real currency.

Like I pointed out though, mega corporations would reject a free currency economy. Honest capitalism is not in their interests.

Multiple currencies is not in anyone's best interest.

Literally nobody is promoting a 'free currency' except anti-government types

You mean those enlightened few with an actual brain?

Yeah, the self delusional types who believe the government is poisoning our waters with fluoride, 9/11 was an inside job, faked moon landings, President isn't a U.S. citizen and the Kennedy's killed Marilyn Monroe.