How Germany could have won the second world war

[harmonica]

Do you like historical "what ifs?" Here's mine.

Hitler took his eye off the ultimate prize, conquering the Soviet Union. Hitler needlessly and detrimentally went to war with Britain.

Upon taking France, Hitler should have disarmed the French (as they did), dismantled the Maginot Line and then announced that it was unilaterally withdrawing from France and state that they never wanted war with the allies and that their territorial claims in Poland were just. The French would have retained their navy (as they did anyway) and their colonies. I'm confident that the French would have readily accepted such generous terms from the Germans.

Hitler would have refrained from invading Denmark, Norway and north Africa while also refraining from any attacks against the U.K. Politically speaking, Churchill would have had virtually nill support for engaging in war against the Germans considering that the French were out of the war and at peace with Germany and considering that the Germans were not taking any aggressive actions against the U.K.

Hitler also would have needed to NOT declare war on the U.S., as he was apparently bound by agreement with Japan to do.

Had Hitler done these things, Germany would not have been at war with the western allies. He would not have expended and wasted massive resources engaging in needless wars in the "Battle of Britain" or in north Africa nor in occupying and fortifying France.

There would have been no British and American bombers bombing Germany's infrastructure. It's quite possible that American aid to the Soviets would never have happened or that the support would have been significantly less.

Hitler could have had the one-front war that he always wanted and have gone to war with the Soviets without having one arm tied behind his back, so to speak.

I will also add that Hitler's desire to actually take Stalingrad was completely unnecessary and counterproductive. He didn't need to take that city. They could have taken the oil fields in the Caucasus oil fields.

One glaring omission was Hitler's genocide of the Jews. Obviously, this would have been problematic for Germany in the long-term as the western allies, sooner or later, were going to learn of what was happening and would have responded with war. Hitler could have delayed his war against Jewish people in order to focus on winning the war. Thereafter, he could have advocated for the state of Israel and then worked on a program to humanely send European Jews to the newly created state.

Hitler would have needed to take Leningrad and then fortify western Russia and the Ukraine in order to be able to retain his conquests. The Germans were never going to be able to take and keep Moscow or Stalingrad. The Germans simply could not won the battle of attrition with the Soviets over the long-term.

Here is what "winning" the war would have looked like for Germany.

1) Defeating the allied armies in France, disarming the French and then making peace with the allies and, of course, avoiding war with the U.S.

2) Seizing Leningrad, the Ukraine and the Caucasus oil fields and being able to hold those territories.

3) Avoiding genocide of the Jews by, instead, exporting Germany's Jews to Palestine or a newly created "Israel".

Still, the Soviets would not have taken this lying down and the idea that the Germans could have, in the long-term, been able to retain control of their territorial conquests in the east seems unlikely.

Thoughts?

Actually Hitler would have won had he not declared war upon America as quickly as he did. America was isolationist at the time, and would not likely have initiated a war with Hitler. If Hitler had waited just a year we would have committed all of our forces to the Pacific instead of initially Europe as we did. This would have freed Hitler up to invade the UK and then Russia without having to worry about a second front in the West, allowing all resources and manpower to fight in Russia.

It would have also allowed Hitler to complete the major advances in warfare they came close to completing. Not only the V rockets, but Germany had developed a stealth fighter. Because of limited resources Hitler dropped the production of the fighters to create a stealth bomber version. This was intended for a one way mission to major east coast cities with a nuclear bomb in it, which they had also come close to completing. Had these programs been successful the world would be much different than it is today.

It was all about timing.

I agree that had Hitler waited a year, he could have won.

He was left without much of an option after we declared war on Japan. Hitler had a mutual aggression pact with them. Not that ignoring agreements with other countries had slowed him to that point.

Hiter had not produced a stealth fighter. He HAD developed and was producing jet fighters and bombers which could have given him air superiority.

won what?

 

[Markle]

FDR is our greatest modern president

Got us through the Republican Depression and led us through WWII. He made us a modern democracy as well as an economic and military super power

FDR was a good war president but a lousy economic president. As you know, and know well, FDR extended the Great Depression but at least seven years.

 

[Markle]

Do you like historical "what ifs?" Here's mine.

Hitler took his eye off the ultimate prize, conquering the Soviet Union. Hitler needlessly and detrimentally went to war with Britain.

Upon taking France, Hitler should have disarmed the French (as they did), dismantled the Maginot Line and then announced that it was unilaterally withdrawing from France and state that they never wanted war with the allies and that their territorial claims in Poland were just. The French would have retained their navy (as they did anyway) and their colonies. I'm confident that the French would have readily accepted such generous terms from the Germans.

Hitler would have refrained from invading Denmark, Norway and north Africa while also refraining from any attacks against the U.K. Politically speaking, Churchill would have had virtually nill support for engaging in war against the Germans considering that the French were out of the war and at peace with Germany and considering that the Germans were not taking any aggressive actions against the U.K.

Hitler also would have needed to NOT declare war on the U.S., as he was apparently bound by agreement with Japan to do.

Had Hitler done these things, Germany would not have been at war with the western allies. He would not have expended and wasted massive resources engaging in needless wars in the "Battle of Britain" or in north Africa nor in occupying and fortifying France.

There would have been no British and American bombers bombing Germany's infrastructure. It's quite possible that American aid to the Soviets would never have happened or that the support would have been significantly less.

Hitler could have had the one-front war that he always wanted and have gone to war with the Soviets without having one arm tied behind his back, so to speak.

I will also add that Hitler's desire to actually take Stalingrad was completely unnecessary and counterproductive. He didn't need to take that city. They could have taken the oil fields in the Caucasus oil fields.

One glaring omission was Hitler's genocide of the Jews. Obviously, this would have been problematic for Germany in the long-term as the western allies, sooner or later, were going to learn of what was happening and would have responded with war. Hitler could have delayed his war against Jewish people in order to focus on winning the war. Thereafter, he could have advocated for the state of Israel and then worked on a program to humanely send European Jews to the newly created state.

Hitler would have needed to take Leningrad and then fortify western Russia and the Ukraine in order to be able to retain his conquests. The Germans were never going to be able to take and keep Moscow or Stalingrad. The Germans simply could not won the battle of attrition with the Soviets over the long-term.

Here is what "winning" the war would have looked like for Germany.

1) Defeating the allied armies in France, disarming the French and then making peace with the allies and, of course, avoiding war with the U.S.

2) Seizing Leningrad, the Ukraine and the Caucasus oil fields and being able to hold those territories.

3) Avoiding genocide of the Jews by, instead, exporting Germany's Jews to Palestine or a newly created "Israel".

Still, the Soviets would not have taken this lying down and the idea that the Germans could have, in the long-term, been able to retain control of their territorial conquests in the east seems unlikely.

Thoughts?

Actually Hitler would have won had he not declared war upon America as quickly as he did. America was isolationist at the time, and would not likely have initiated a war with Hitler. If Hitler had waited just a year we would have committed all of our forces to the Pacific instead of initially Europe as we did. This would have freed Hitler up to invade the UK and then Russia without having to worry about a second front in the West, allowing all resources and manpower to fight in Russia.

It would have also allowed Hitler to complete the major advances in warfare they came close to completing. Not only the V rockets, but Germany had developed a stealth fighter. Because of limited resources Hitler dropped the production of the fighters to create a stealth bomber version. This was intended for a one way mission to major east coast cities with a nuclear bomb in it, which they had also come close to completing. Had these programs been successful the world would be much different than it is today.

It was all about timing.

I agree that had Hitler waited a year, he could have won.

He was left without much of an option after we declared war on Japan. Hitler had a mutual aggression pact with them. Not that ignoring agreements with other countries had slowed him to that point.

Hiter had not produced a stealth fighter. He HAD developed and was producing jet fighters and bombers which could have given him air superiority.

won what?

Seriously?

 

[harmonica]

you people are seriously dreaming up crap
not reality

 

[MaryL]

Do you like historical "what ifs?" Here's mine.

Hitler took his eye off the ultimate prize, conquering the Soviet Union. Hitler needlessly and detrimentally went to war with Britain.

Upon taking France, Hitler should have disarmed the French (as they did), dismantled the Maginot Line and then announced that it was unilaterally withdrawing from France and state that they never wanted war with the allies and that their territorial claims in Poland were just. The French would have retained their navy (as they did anyway) and their colonies. I'm confident that the French would have readily accepted such generous terms from the Germans.

Hitler would have refrained from invading Denmark, Norway and north Africa while also refraining from any attacks against the U.K. Politically speaking, Churchill would have had virtually nill support for engaging in war against the Germans considering that the French were out of the war and at peace with Germany and considering that the Germans were not taking any aggressive actions against the U.K.

Hitler also would have needed to NOT declare war on the U.S., as he was apparently bound by agreement with Japan to do.

Had Hitler done these things, Germany would not have been at war with the western allies. He would not have expended and wasted massive resources engaging in needless wars in the "Battle of Britain" or in north Africa nor in occupying and fortifying France.

There would have been no British and American bombers bombing Germany's infrastructure. It's quite possible that American aid to the Soviets would never have happened or that the support would have been significantly less.

Hitler could have had the one-front war that he always wanted and have gone to war with the Soviets without having one arm tied behind his back, so to speak.

I will also add that Hitler's desire to actually take Stalingrad was completely unnecessary and counterproductive. He didn't need to take that city. They could have taken the oil fields in the Caucasus oil fields.

One glaring omission was Hitler's genocide of the Jews. Obviously, this would have been problematic for Germany in the long-term as the western allies, sooner or later, were going to learn of what was happening and would have responded with war. Hitler could have delayed his war against Jewish people in order to focus on winning the war. Thereafter, he could have advocated for the state of Israel and then worked on a program to humanely send European Jews to the newly created state.

Hitler would have needed to take Leningrad and then fortify western Russia and the Ukraine in order to be able to retain his conquests. The Germans were never going to be able to take and keep Moscow or Stalingrad. The Germans simply could not won the battle of attrition with the Soviets over the long-term.

Here is what "winning" the war would have looked like for Germany.

1) Defeating the allied armies in France, disarming the French and then making peace with the allies and, of course, avoiding war with the U.S.

2) Seizing Leningrad, the Ukraine and the Caucasus oil fields and being able to hold those territories.

3) Avoiding genocide of the Jews by, instead, exporting Germany's Jews to Palestine or a newly created "Israel".

Still, the Soviets would not have taken this lying down and the idea that the Germans could have, in the long-term, been able to retain control of their territorial conquests in the east seems unlikely.

Thoughts?

He could have done it like the Mexicans have the US. Passive aggressively. Instead of using armed force, use waves of unarmed civilians and made it seem a humanitarian issue. It's brilliant. It would have taken longer, but coopting an entire county's culture takes time. Co-opting the politics of country you are invading to accept your agenda without firing a shot, sheer genius.

 

[rightwinger]

FDR is our greatest modern president

Got us through the Republican Depression and led us through WWII. He made us a modern democracy as well as an economic and military super power

FDR was a good war president but a lousy economic president. As you know, and know well, FDR extended the Great Depression but at least seven years.

Really?

What year was the Great Depression supposed to end?

 

[Markle]

Of course, that's idiotic, as Germany declared war in the United States.

Adolph Hitler had little choice after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and the US declared war on Japan. Hitler and Japan had signed a mutual aggression pack.

 

[Markle]

FDR is our greatest modern president

Got us through the Republican Depression and led us through WWII. He made us a modern democracy as well as an economic and military super power

FDR was a good war president but a lousy economic president. As you know, and know well, FDR extended the Great Depression but at least seven years.

Really?

What year was the Great Depression supposed to end?

How long did the Great Depression of 1920/21 last?

 

[Markle]

you people are seriously dreaming up crap
not reality

Perhaps you did not notice but the topic is NOT reality.

 

[harmonica]

hitler is not even beating Russia alone

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The point is

Hitler only fights on one front

...he cannot win against the Russians--Russia too big/over double the population and hitler stabbed Russia in the back--Russia will not surrender
...Russia can't beat UK and the US
--it's a looooooong stretch to think Germany could win either front by itself

What if Hitler only concerned himself with defeating Russia ?
Would the west intervene to save communist USSR?
What if after defeating France and driving the Brits off the continent, Hitler had made peace and agreed to a disarmed France and an agreement that England stay out of future conflicts?

Then he can leave the Western Front undefended and use all his forces against USSR without the allies bombing his factories

Had Stalin’s Stooge not been such a bloodthirsty fool, duped by the Limeys and his mass murdering Uncle, WWII would have been known today as the Russo-Hun War.

Of course, that's idiotic, as Germany declared war in the United States.

As usual you don’t know shit.

FDR instigated war with Japan, after his many efforts to instigate war with Germany failed. Once the US declared war on Japan, after FDR’s successful efforts of instigating war with them, Germany had little choice since they were allies with Japan.

So the fool FDR, was successful all round in getting his war with Germany to help save his Uncle.

No, Japan attacked us and started war. And Germany declared war on Russia long after allying with Japan...another thing you were ass backwards wrong about...

 

[Picaro]

Or he realized that the USSR was the country in a position to really do something about it.

Stalin BEGGED the West to open a second front, which really wasn't done until the middle of 1944. Up until that point, most of the fighting was done between the Red Army and the Wehrmacht.

Means nothing Joe, as it relates to my post. You have a propensity to post irrelevant shit.

FDR loved Uncle Joe. Communism did not scare FDR. He loved it so much that he filled his administration with Commies.

"FDR loved Uncle Joe" you know why? koba had mentality of Georgian thieves in law, very attractive for "friendship" . + USA wanted British empire down. but you have a point here FDR administration was badly infected with commies

FDR loved Uncle Joe

He loved that the Soviets did all the fighting and dying while we waited for the “right time” for us to invade

He loved that eighty percent of the German divisions were dedicated to fighting the Soviets

He loved that the Soviets had the Germans on the ropes by the time we executed D Day

He loved that we got the best territory after the war was over

Yes he was an imperialist, which you ignorantly admire.

FDR loved Stalin so much that he agreed to imprison half of Europe behind the Iron Curtain. Leading to decades of Cold War, which we were very lucky not to have destroyed the world.

FDR had no choice on who got Eastern Europe
It was occupied by the Red Army and Stalin was not about to give it up. He had already given millions of lives for that territory

Forcing him out would have cost hundreds of thousands of American lives

Most countries in the East had large populations who supported the German anyway; why squander blood and treasure to rescue them? Better to hold the best defensive positions Eisenhower decided on in 1941, and let the Soviets have to spend its manpower and wealth trying to absorb all that, and of course for the most part failing at it.

 

[Picaro]

Hitler started the war before the military was ready, and properly supplied. Then he mistakenly sided with the Japanese, and declared war on the U.S. Then he attacked Russia! Absolutely moronic.

He went to war for the nearly the same reasons the Kaiser did; his staff had determined he had about a three year window after which it would have been impossible to break out and expand, before the Soviets built up and invaded Germany. In the Kaiser's case, it was nonsense, Russia was modernizing in the face of defeats by Japan and was focused on retaking what they lost in the East. Hitler's concerns were much more real.The failure of his big economic projects to permanently improve the economy, like the AutoBahn, pretty much made it necessary for him to start looting his neighbors in 1938, hence the putsch in Austria, going into Poland, and the the Soviet Union before Stalin got strong again. Without war he would have been toast domestically.

 

[Litwin]

Means nothing Joe, as it relates to my post. You have a propensity to post irrelevant shit.

FDR loved Uncle Joe. Communism did not scare FDR. He loved it so much that he filled his administration with Commies.

"FDR loved Uncle Joe" you know why? koba had mentality of Georgian thieves in law, very attractive for "friendship" . + USA wanted British empire down. but you have a point here FDR administration was badly infected with commies

FDR loved Uncle Joe

He loved that the Soviets did all the fighting and dying while we waited for the “right time” for us to invade

He loved that eighty percent of the German divisions were dedicated to fighting the Soviets

He loved that the Soviets had the Germans on the ropes by the time we executed D Day

He loved that we got the best territory after the war was over

Yes he was an imperialist, which you ignorantly admire.

FDR loved Stalin so much that he agreed to imprison half of Europe behind the Iron Curtain. Leading to decades of Cold War, which we were very lucky not to have destroyed the world.

FDR had no choice on who got Eastern Europe
It was occupied by the Red Army and Stalin was not about to give it up. He had already given millions of lives for that territory

Forcing him out would have cost hundreds of thousands of American lives

Most countries in the East had large populations who supported the German anyway; why squander blood and treasure to rescue them? Better to hold the best defensive positions Eisenhower decided on in 1941, and let the Soviets have to spend its manpower and wealth trying to absorb all that, and of course for the most part failing at it.

in the east? not in the west ? whats about France ; Italy ,. Belgium and many others ?

 

[Litwin]

Silly as usual. Had we not entered the war and not given Stalin unlimited war material, he and Hitler likely fight to a stalemate. Thus saving lots of American lives.

FDR, like most tyrants, loved war.

A stalemate leaves Western Europe in German hands. The Soviets did the fighting and dying while we waited years to launch an invasion .....providing supplies to Russia kept us from having to bear the burden

FDR understood war and built a strong alliance
He also turned us into a Superpower

Soviets were Koba´s slaves, they have done many other stupid thing for Georgian tyrant

It was actually extreme patriotism

Their country was being invaded. They were fighting for Mother Russia
They lost ten percent of their population

"It was actually extreme patriotism " no it was not , its a Stalinist myth . the biggest national group of German ´s collaborationists were "russians" +
"The Lokot Autonomy was a semi-autonomous region in Nazi German-occupied central Russia commanded by Bronislav Kaminski's administration from July 1942 to August 1943. The name is derived from the district's site of administration, the urban-type settlement of Lokot in Oryol Oblast (now located in Bryansk Oblast). The "Autonomy" covered the area of eight raions (the present-day districtsBrasovsky, Dmitriyevsky, Dmitrovsky, Komarichsky, Navlinsky, Sevsky, Suzemsky and Zheleznogorsky) now divided between Bryansk, Oryol and Kursk Oblasts.[2] The autonomy was to serve as a test case for a Russian collaborationist government commanded by the SS in Reichskommissariat Moskowien.[3]"


Lokot Autonomy - Wikipedia


Smalensk villages, flowers, bred and salt

The Russians were fighting for their homeland not Stalin.

They were as patriotic as we were. Only difference was they were fighting for their survival

one more Stalinist myth , 1) whats about Balts, Ukrainians, Belarusians , Moldovans, Chechens, Tatars , etc. ? 2) in 1941 the most of soviet population were peasants , who were enslaved by koba just couple of years before ww2, so for which homeland they supposed to fight, and why?

 

[Picaro]

"FDR loved Uncle Joe" you know why? koba had mentality of Georgian thieves in law, very attractive for "friendship" . + USA wanted British empire down. but you have a point here FDR administration was badly infected with commies

FDR loved Uncle Joe

He loved that the Soviets did all the fighting and dying while we waited for the “right time” for us to invade

He loved that eighty percent of the German divisions were dedicated to fighting the Soviets

He loved that the Soviets had the Germans on the ropes by the time we executed D Day

He loved that we got the best territory after the war was over

Yes he was an imperialist, which you ignorantly admire.

FDR loved Stalin so much that he agreed to imprison half of Europe behind the Iron Curtain. Leading to decades of Cold War, which we were very lucky not to have destroyed the world.

FDR had no choice on who got Eastern Europe
It was occupied by the Red Army and Stalin was not about to give it up. He had already given millions of lives for that territory

Forcing him out would have cost hundreds of thousands of American lives

Most countries in the East had large populations who supported the German anyway; why squander blood and treasure to rescue them? Better to hold the best defensive positions Eisenhower decided on in 1941, and let the Soviets have to spend its manpower and wealth trying to absorb all that, and of course for the most part failing at it.

in the east? not in the west ? whats about France ; Italy ,. Belgium and many others ?

What about them? Had to go through them to get to Germany, as far as I can tell. They were also big trading partners, and Americans had interests in them as well as most Americans having come from there. Most eastern Europeans in the U.S. were either Jews or were fleeing their countries and had no interest in their former countries, having been treated badly there. Same with Russians in America, mostly Jewish or nothing good to remember from the homelands.