How Hively v Ivy Tech (2016), Etc. Impacts Gay Marriage (Obergefell 2015)

Would this latest legal separation of the word "sex" from "sexual orientation" topple Obergefell?

  • Yes, sex is a static thing: male or female. Sexual orientation has legally misused the word "sex".

  • No, even though courts ruled in opposite directions on that premise, Obergefell can still use it.

  • Not sure. But it could bring new challenges to Obergefell and others by wrong language.


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It refers to the gender, ie "sex" of the people. So yes, they made the comparison in Obergefell and attempted to tie "sex" with "sexual orientation".

The word "sex" can be one of two things:...1) Another classification used to ascribe gender; or...2) The act of mating, making love, and doing the hunka-chunka (h/t Demolition Man)....Sexual orientation can be one of five things:...Heterosexual, homosexual, bi-sexual, pansexual or asexual....These terms do not define gender, they do not ascribe gender, they describe sexual attraction. They define the preference of a human being to the opposite sex, same sex, both of them, no sex, or an attraction to someone regardless of "sexual identity."...In this context, they are not related to one another. Meaning Obergfell and Hively have nothing to do with one another....Dictionaries. Helping mankind define the English language (and differentiate court rulings) since 1755.

"Sex" in the context of civil rights refers to one's gender. That was just clarified in Hively v Ivy Tech. In Obergefell, the Court's liberal pockets Justices attempted to insert a trojan horse in legal terminology with those paragraphs below, where they wove the words "sex" (as in "same-sex"..."same-gender") with sexual behaviors aka sexual orientation. (singular, limited JUST to homosexuals, their pet favorites apparently). That the court was so wilfully myopic as to only discuss one of many sexual orientations, all in the same category (repugnant to the majority) is gross judicial negligence. THEY KNEW as they wrote the paragraph below that polygamists, for example, were already in the process of challenging their marriage case in the lower courts. Particularly Brown v Utah. So THEY KNEW that when they ratified (it will be found they overstepped by creating a behavior, just some but not others, as "class") Obergefell and affixed it to the Constitution, that they were also at the same moment legalizing ALL sexual orientations repugnant to the majority and not just their pet favorites. 5 people on the Supreme Court do not get to tease away one repugnant sexual orientation from all the other repugnant sexual orientations. That was a Royal Decree, not a Court verdict.

What the Court said in Obergefell was "never mind how the majority of each state feels about the PRIVILIGE' of marriage (since we are only including some but not other repugnant sex behaviors), We Justices hereby override the majority of each state, while still maintaining marriage is a privilege, and we insert just some sexual orientations the states object to, while others the states may still regulate away from marriage." That is an arbitrary decree. It was outside their power to say so and to do so.

And we haven't even gotten into how that Decree affects the other parties who have an implied share in the marriage contract: children. They were systematically via that Royal Decree, stripped via contract and cement of law, of even the hope of either a mother or father for life. And, they had no representation at Obergefell: the marriage contract proposed revision hearing.

USSC Trojan Horse Terminology paragraphs:

***************
(pages 7-8)
*******

This dynamic can be seen in the Nation’s experiences with the rights of gays and lesbians. Until the mid-20th century, same-sex intimacy long had been condemned as immoral by the state itself in most Western nations, a belief often embodied in the criminal law. For this reason, among others, many persons did not deem homosexuals to have dignity in their own distinct identity. A truthful declaration by same-sex couples of what was in their hearts had to remain unspoken. Even when a greater awareness of the humanity and integrity of homosexual persons came in the period after World War II, the argument that gays and lesbians had a just claim to dignity was in conflict with both law and widespread social conventions. Same-sex intimacy remained a crime in many States. Gays and lesbians were prohibited from most government employment, barred from military service, excluded under immigration laws, targeted by police, and burdened in their rights to associate. See Brief for Organization of American Historians as Amicus Curiae
5–28. For much of the 20th century, moreover, homosexuality was treated as an illness. When the American Psychiatric Association published the first Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders in 1952, homosexuality was classified as a mental disorder, a position adhered to until1973. See Position Statement on Homosexuality and Civil
Rights, 1973, in 131 Am. J. Psychiatry 497 (1974). Only in more recent years have psychiatrists and others recognized that sexual orientation is both a normal expression of human sexuality and immutable. See Brief for American Psychological Association et al. as

Amici Curiae
7–17. In the late 20th century, following substantial cultural and political developments, same-sex couples began to lead more open and public lives and to establish families. This development was followed by a quite extensive discussion of the issue in both governmental and private sectors and by a shift in public attitudes toward greater tolerance. As a result, questions about the rights of gays and lesbians soon reached the courts, where the issue could be discussed in the formal discourse of the law.

***********

You know, there's a reason the Court didn't just pick one term like "gays and lesbians" or "same sex" and just stick with it throughout the two consecutive paragraphs there. And that stunt was just comically obvious. It was their blatant attempt to weave gender in with sexual behavior in legal protections. It failed thanks to Hively v Ivy Tech...
 
^^ You're no longer allowed to categorize people who disagree with the cult of LGBT as "hating gays". It is a disagreement about behavior; which is allowed and encouraged in the US. Always.

You promote hatred towards gays.

That is what you do.

You lie about behavior, you lie about the facts, you even lie about words- all to promote hatred towards gays.
 
^^ Ah, so then you'll be happy that polygamy is now legal as well. And so are any combination of adults who want to marry.

Another example of Silhouette's delusional postings.

Americans have been able to legally marry each other regardless of gender for over a year now- and still no legal polygamy.
Citizens of Massachusetts have been able to legally marry each other regardless of gender for over 10 years now- and still no legal polygamy.

You are lying.

Again.

In order to attack gay Americans.

Again.
 
[QU
What the Court said in Obergefell was "never mind how the majority of each state feels about the PRIVILIGE' of marriage (since we are only including some but not other repugnant sex behaviors),..

Again Silhouette lying to promote hatred towards gays.

The Supreme Court recognizes marriage as a right.

You lie and call it a privilege. Knowing that the Supreme Court has repeatedly- from Loving to Obergefell declared marriage to be a right.

You just lie.

In every post.
 
Yes yes yes...you don't like what I'm saying so I'm a "lying liar". Are you voting for Trump perchance in the Fall? Oh, no...right. Your group only crossed over where they could to vote for him in the primaries. They'll be back in blue come November..

Seriously, Syriusly..lol. Your last three posts sound like "nuh uh!! Silhouette is a mean old liar. She's a liar liar liar. A lying liar!". Methinks the LGBT protest too much..
 
^^ Ah, so then you'll be happy that polygamy is now legal as well. And so are any combination of adults who want to marry.

LOL. So you lack the spine to quote me directly. To think you almost got away with it. Polygamy is irrelevant to the discussion. It's funny how you managed to derail your own thread with superfluous discussion about polygamy. I thought we were talking about gay marriage, no polygamy? What do the two have in relation to one another?
 
^^ Ah, so then you'll be happy that polygamy is now legal as well. And so are any combination of adults who want to marry.

Nope. Obergefell never so much as mentions polygamy let alone makes it legal.

You make shit up. It has nothing to do with the law. Nothing happens.

See how that works?
 
^^ Ah, so then you'll be happy that polygamy is now legal as well. And so are any combination of adults who want to marry.

LOL. So you lack the spine to quote me directly. To think you almost got away with it. Polygamy is irrelevant to the discussion. It's funny how you managed to derail your own thread with superfluous discussion about polygamy. I thought we were talking about gay marriage, no polygamy? What do the two have in relation to one another?

Her horseshit claim that Obergefell argued that sex and sexual orientation are the same thing certainly didn't work. So why wouldn't Sil desperately try and change the topic?
 
^^ Ah, so then you'll be happy that polygamy is now legal as well. And so are any combination of adults who want to marry.

LOL. So you lack the spine to quote me directly. To think you almost got away with it. Polygamy is irrelevant to the discussion. It's funny how you managed to derail your own thread with superfluous discussion about polygamy. I thought we were talking about gay marriage, not polygamy? What do the two have in relation to one another?

Her horseshit claim that Obergefell argued that sex and sexual orientation are the same thing certainly didn't work. So why wouldn't Sil desperately try and change the topic?

I'm curious about that myself. I don't expect a response from her. Arguments die when you start arguing over other arguments. If you get my meaning.
 
It refers to the gender, ie "sex" of the people. So yes, they made the comparison in Obergefell and attempted to tie "sex" with "sexual orientation".

The word "sex" can be one of two things:...1) Another classification used to ascribe gender; or...2) The act of mating, making love, and doing the hunka-chunka (h/t Demolition Man)....Sexual orientation can be one of five things:...Heterosexual, homosexual, bi-sexual, pansexual or asexual....These terms do not define gender, they do not ascribe gender, they describe sexual attraction. They define the preference of a human being to the opposite sex, same sex, both of them, no sex, or an attraction to someone regardless of "sexual identity."...In this context, they are not related to one another. Meaning Obergfell and Hively have nothing to do with one another....Dictionaries. Helping mankind define the English language (and differentiate court rulings) since 1755.

"Sex" in the context of civil rights refers to one's gender. That was just clarified in Hively v Ivy Tech. In Obergefell, the Court's liberal pockets Justices attempted to insert a trojan horse in legal terminology with those paragraphs below, where they wove the words "sex" (as in "same-sex"..."same-gender") with sexual behaviors aka sexual orientation.

Save of course that the Obergefell never argues that sex and sexual orientation are the same thing.

Not once. Nor have you ever been able to cite the Obergefell ruling ever doing so. What you did was cite the Obergefell saying the words 'same sex' and 'homosexuality'.

Then, in defiance of all reason and reading comprehension, you've have bizarrely argued means that the court equated them.

Um, Nope. That's not how words work. Let along the Obergefell ruling.

You make shit up. It has nothing to do with the law. Nothing happens.
 
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^^ Ah, so then you'll be happy that polygamy is now legal as well. And so are any combination of adults who want to marry.

LOL. So you lack the spine to quote me directly. To think you almost got away with it. Polygamy is irrelevant to the discussion. It's funny how you managed to derail your own thread with superfluous discussion about polygamy. I thought we were talking about gay marriage, not polygamy? What do the two have in relation to one another?

Her horseshit claim that Obergefell argued that sex and sexual orientation are the same thing certainly didn't work. So why wouldn't Sil desperately try and change the topic?

I'm curious about that myself. I don't expect a response from her. Arguments die when you start arguing over other arguments. If you get my meaning.

Oh, this is at least the 10th time she's offered us some random case which Sil has insisted overturn Obergefell.

And absolutely nothing has ever happened to Obergefell.

If not for pseudo-legal gibberish, Sil's posts would be little more than punctuation.
 
Oh, this is at least the 10th time she's offered us some random case which Sil has insisted overturn Obergefell.

Unfortunately, that's not how case law works. :D

From my knowledge, only another case involving the same set of variables as Obergfell, having an opposite ruling as Obergfell (namely, one overturning it), can overturn Obergfell.
 
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Oh, this is at least the 10th time she's offered us some random case which Sil has insisted overturn Obergefell.

Unfortunately, that's not how case law works. :D

From my knowledge, only another case involving the same set of variables as Obergfell, having an opposite ruling as Obergfell (namely, one overturning it), can overturn Obergfell.

Yup. Yet Sil's still citing cases seemingly at random. She once cited Ferber v. NY.....a case from 1982 about child pornography, as overturning Obergefell.

No, I'm not joking.
 
Oh, this is at least the 10th time she's offered us some random case which Sil has insisted overturn Obergefell.

Unfortunately, that's not how case law works. :D

From my knowledge, only another case involving the same set of variables as Obergfell, having an opposite ruling as Obergfell (namely, one overturning it), can overturn Obergfell.

Yup. Yet Sil's still citing cases seemingly at random. She once cited Ferber v. NY.....a case from 1982 about child pornography, as overturning Obergefell.

No, I'm not joking.

I see. An overturning case cannot precede the case being overturned. Holy smokes.
 
From my knowledge, only another case involving the same set of variables as Obergfell, having an opposite ruling as Obergfell (namely, one overturning it), can overturn Obergfell.
Yes but logic in argument in that case with the same set of variables, draws off of other cases where new precedents involving questions of law at hand at that hearing have been previously set. You guys know how lawyers frame their arguments. You know they include supporting case law after each assertion they make that could be challenged by the opposition. Sometimes they cite even the weirdest remote cases no one would think would be related to the larger case at hand, paragraph by paragraph. Quit pretending you don't know that!
 
From my knowledge, only another case involving the same set of variables as Obergfell, having an opposite ruling as Obergfell (namely, one overturning it), can overturn Obergfell.
Yes but logic in argument in that case with the same set of variables, draws off of other cases where new precedents involving questions of law at hand at that hearing have been previously set.

Hively and Obergefell don't have the 'same set of variables'. The only similarity they have...is that they both involve gay people. That's it.

Hively is an employee discrimination case about interactions between private citizens based on the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

Obergefell is equal protection case involving marriage, covering interactions between the State and individual based on the 14th amendment.

They literally have nothing to do with each other.
As the Hively court emphasized when they acknowelged that Obergefell had no direct impact on their ruling and didn't even address the issues of Hively.

Rendering your pseudo-legal gibberish all the more nonsensical, irrelevant, and utterly pointless.
 
Yes but logic in argument in that case with the same set of variables, draws off of other cases where new precedents involving questions of law at hand at that hearing have been previously set.

No. If you had been reading few posts, you would have known that Skylar told me how you cited a case from 1982, in which you asserted rendered Obergfell illegitimate. However, a case made 34 years ago cannot overrule a case that (until then) has yet to be made. You have zero knowledge of how rulings and precedents work.

You guys know how lawyers frame their arguments.

Irrelevant.

You know they include supporting case law after each assertion they make that could be challenged by the opposition.

And? You cited Ferber v. New York, a child pornography case from 1982, as overruling precedent for a case that wasn't even made until 34 years in the future!

You're clueless.

Sometimes they cite even the weirdest remote cases no one would think would be related to the larger case at hand, paragraph by paragraph. Quit pretending you don't know that!

Stop playing Back to the Future and park the freaking DeLorean.

Our justice system doesn't work that way. Stop pretending you're a legal expert. I've studied cases and precedent and I enjoy studying the law and the courts. I could run you under a few tables with what I know. Here's the kicker. I'm not college educated. And I've no law degree of any sort. But that doesn't stop me from seeking knowledge, especially about the proper workings of our law and justice system.

Please stop embarrassing yourself, Sil.
 
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