How much should health care cost? Should it cost anything?

[Cecilie1200]

Here's the fundamental problem:

Left to their own devices, a great many people will not get any kind of health care insurance. They will claim they can't afford it.

But if there is one thing I've learned, it's that people find a way to afford what they want to afford. So they buy more car than they can afford and rent or buy more house than they can afford.

But they don't "want" to afford health insurance, even though they will most definitely need care at some point. Doctors and hospitals won't deny them that care even if they can't pay. So the rest of us end up paying these people's health expenses via higher insurance and medical care costs.

How do we get people to be responsible for their own health care?

Maybe insurance should only be available for major medical expenses. Anything else is self-pay at the time service is rendered, with ability to pay verified before care is given. No pay, no service. Just like other types of business.

You stop making it possible for them to take a free ride on other people's coattails.

I'm not saying refuse them services, but bill their stupid asses for the services. And frankly, if people had to be responsible for the medical bills, instead of having a third party pay them where they never even SEE how much things cost, the prices would go way down. Ever notice how optional medical services, like laser eye surgery, cosmetic surgery, etc. drop in price drastically after the first year they're on the market, and then compete with each other with lower prices, sales, etc.? That's because they know the patients actually care about the cost because it's out of their own pockets. When the insurance company, or the government, is covering it and people never see the bill, it's easy to gouge and inflate.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I have to remind myself that on this site, I am dealing with people who are probably not educated beyond high school (if that) and probably never leave the town they live in. I'm guessing you aren't required to use your brain in whatever job you do (if you work at all) and your ability to think critically suffers as a result. Your repeated lack of common sense, the inability to see the blatant hypocrisy and the need to repeat the same tired bullshit lines about your freedom being taken away over and over again put it all back in to perspective for me. I have no interest in continuing this thread as I've probably already stuck around too long. Good luck with your lives.

Nice try, fucktard. I guess when the facts refuse to support you, it's easier to just make up your own than to admit you're full of shit and lost the argument.

And I'm pretty sure we've all seen the lack of common sense, the blatant hypocrisy, and the need to repeat bullshit. After all, we've been reading your posts.

Scamper, poltroon. Run away with your tail between your legs. Just don't believe that you've fooled anyone into thinking it's anything but a rout.

 

[Bern80]

How do we get people to be responsible for their own health care?

Maybe insurance should only be available for major medical expenses. Anything else is self-pay at the time service is rendered, with ability to pay verified before care is given. No pay, no service. Just like other types of business.

That is certainly something I would like to see. It would most definatley lower the cost of services and open up competition in the insurance industry. But this bill simply isn not going to allow that to happen. This bill does not reform our health care system for the better. The bitter reality for people like RDD is that it fucks over the many to save the few. He thinks it's worth it. I don't.

How do you get people to be more responsible? You allow there to be negative consequences for not doing so. Certianly an insurance mandate would do that. Unfortunately the fed requiring people to buy something is unconstitutional and sets a pretty dangerous precedent jeopardizing personal liberty. That few seem to care about that is pretty alarming. So what's the next best option? How about another way of holding people legally accountable? Make it illegal to not pay for services rendered. If you can't pay for services, you work out a payment plan. If you have to spend the rest of your life paying it off, so be it.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Bern80 again.

Just like I did.

Hopefully at some point people will get the hint that they need to take responsibiity for their health care costs, which translates into taking repsonsibility for their lives. The further you remove the direct financial impact of choices from a person, the less respsonsible that person will be. That's how governmet does things unfortunately. It discourges respsonsible behavior all around. From those they take from to pay others. Why should I be responsible if government will just handle it for me if I'm not? Why should i be responsible if government is just going to take from me when I am?

 

[syrenn]

Why don't they just go to the doctor and set up a payment plan with him? He'll charge a lot less for treating the flu or strep throat or an ear infection than an ER would. They also get lots of drug samples they can pass along.

Why shouldn't everyone pay the same?

Because they don't want to pay anything, that is the point. Hell, i don't want to pay anything either, but life sucks.

This is the second time I've asked this of RDD and the second time he hasn't answered.

LOL, Ive asked if he wants to pay for my medical bill. So far, no offer of picking up the tab.

 

[syrenn]

I have to remind myself that on this site, I am dealing with people who are probably not educated beyond high school (if that) and probably never leave the town they live in. I'm guessing you aren't required to use your brain in whatever job you do (if you work at all) and your ability to think critically suffers as a result. Your repeated lack of common sense, the inability to see the blatant hypocrisy and the need to repeat the same tired bullshit lines about your freedom being taken away over and over again put it all back in to perspective for me. I have no interest in continuing this thread as I've probably already stuck around too long. Good luck with your lives.

Feel better about yourself now? A bit more superior perhaps? Found a taller soap box maybe?

 

[Zoom-boing]

I have to remind myself that on this site, I am dealing with people who are probably not educated beyond high school (if that) and probably never leave the town they live in. I'm guessing you aren't required to use your brain in whatever job you do (if you work at all) and your ability to think critically suffers as a result. Your repeated lack of common sense, the inability to see the blatant hypocrisy and the need to repeat the same tired bullshit lines about your freedom being taken away over and over again put it all back in to perspective for me. I have no interest in continuing this thread as I've probably already stuck around too long. Good luck with your lives.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

Smarterthanhick you are a real case. Narcissist comes to mind. It is not that you have won anyone over with reasoning and evidence. People get tired of debating with idiots. It is like trying to debate with children. Children pose such inane ideas that you are presented with nothing to debate, just a lot of words. So have fun if you think you have won points but it isn't true. Just like your reasoning was not true but again in your mind, your emotion trumps all reasoning. Emotion, the base of most liberal views and beliefs.

Obama Care is so good that SEIU has asked for and was granted a waiver. They are now one of the over 700 applicants granted a waiver from Obama Care. So believe what you may, SEIU raised 23 million for Obama's election but don't want anything to do with Obama's flagship program - health care.

Waivers aren’t meant to protect people from unintended consequences of Obamacare; they are meant to exempt them from the very intentional increased costs of health insurance that the law causes.

Now I broke my own rule and replied to you. Last time though because the aphorism of arguing with the pig is true.

Ah I see. So you are arguing against my evidence supported claims by name-calling. For someone who seems so fixated on calling other people children, do you realize that mature debate requires refutation instead of third grade attempts at insults? How sad. Like Fitz, let me know when you'd like to actually refute facts:
Not all drugs have generics.
Older drugs almost always have worse side effect profiles.

No. You've proven too small to bother with.

I don't debate people who spout lunacy and ignore points, deliberately misconstrue points, peddle intellectually dishonest examples then move the goalposts when busted on it... then claim victory.

Back to the kiddie pool with you, Dumberthanshit. This is why I never comment to you in religion threads either.

Yeah you don't debate people who use wikipedia, reputable sources, and verifiable information. Those things are usually lunacy and misconstrued, right? Tuck tail and run along now.

You - Don't care if other people (working or not) can get access to healthcare. The solution to the problem is work harder.

Have the money? You can access health care. Don't have the money, there are private charities to help. Think Shriners Hospitals, Catholic Charities, Ronald McDonald House. All help people with medical issues and their associated crap becomes If government is administrating, it won't matter if you have money or not. They say no... you get nothing.

Nothing except healthcare still. Who do you think is paying for that healthcare that isn't being paid by the patient?

By putting politicians and bureaucrats between me and my doctor just like the almost extinct HMOs did?

By causing doctors to quit the profession, because of the new regulations and lawsuits and decreased pay and restrictions on billing?

You still are clueless about the public option. Did you even bother to read the wikipedia article? What evidence do you have that doctors are quitting when medical schools are packed to the brim and only increasing admissions? Oh right, you don't need that thing called evidence to make up "facts."

By overloading the system forcing rationing sooner?

You still don't realize we're already rationing. That's sad.

National healthcare ruins nations. England and Canada prove that... and our proposed system is even worse.

Yes, England and Canada are in ruin right now. Destroyed. Third world. What a drama queen.

My Bottom line for all of this is:

If you want national Insurance/health care, then EVERYONE should pay the same. No one gets exemptions.

As opposed to now, where you pay for everyone else who won't pay for themselves. Right.

 

[syrenn]

My Bottom line for all of this is:

If you want national Insurance/health care, then EVERYONE should pay the same. No one gets exemptions.

As opposed to now, where you pay for everyone else who won't pay for themselves. Right.

You may want to read the thread of our exchanges to understand what i am saying so late in a thread.

There is no difference between obama care and "now" In both systems those who can pay also will be paying for those how don't.

So again if you want national health care then EVERYONE should pay the same, no exemptions. No more free lunch.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

So those people that don't have health insurance are paying for chemo and bypass surgery through payment plans? lol.

I'm paying right now for over 6000 in tests forced on me by the state in payment plans.

It's very possible that it can be paid for as well the same way. But if you want to try and play triviality search, do that on your own damn time with someone who gives a fuck. The exceptions do not invalidate the rule.

Certain chemotherapy treatments can cost upwards of ten times your payment plan per session. Surgical staplers cost $500 each, not to mention the $60 per minute time spent in the OR. It seems like you have a rather poor idea of actual health care costs because you are managing a relatively small one.

But the fact remains that the rest of society will pay for your healthcare costs as soon as they are too large for you to manage. Unless you never plan on having surgery or needing an ICU, that is a matter of WHEN and not IF.

You don't get it. I want those people to have health care too. The difference between the two of us, even though we agreed your health care should be your financial responsibility is that your advocating of Obamacare and these subsidized insurance plans is a further disinsentive for people to do exactly that. You're basically telling peope, just show us you're poor enough and we'll get someone else to pay for it. Well if I'm poor and my goal is to get myself some health care coverage, what course of action am I likely to take. The most efficient one of course which under your plan is to do basically nothing.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but feel you are a little off in your interpretation. It's hard to dis-incentivize people having taxable jobs that much. The idea is that the money would come from taxation, meaning the only way to avoid it by being dis-incentivized is to avoid any legitimate job.

No, i am paying for it. Just as i would be paying for it under obama care. So nothing changes. I pay for those that don't.

Exactly right. So why change things, right? Well, the fact is that people like Big Fitz who COULD pay for things but don't would buy in, helping himself by avoiding ridiculous payment plans, and you by lowering your costs as well. You and everyone else with insurance would still be paying for everyone, but you'd have the added help of all the people who are working legal jobs and don't have insurance.

And that's who's fault for making it too expensive?

Oh that's right...

The government's.

Dipshit. This is why you have no credibility.

Once again it appears you have a poor concept of where the large bulk of healthcare costs are generated.

Why can't we all ride on Amtrak any where we want any time we want for free. How about the Subway's and Bus'es? How long do you think they would hold up to abuse and misuse? Could we fly anywhere for free? How long before the jets start falling from the skies? You make something an entitlement, and you are ripe for abuse, nothing more. We have enough problems with Hypochondriacs without encouraging them. I don't think Everyone has a right to a $500 or $5000 band-Aid. I personally don't think anyone should pay government protected exorbitant prices. I'm Sure GE, and the rest of the Monopoly Oligarchy, Plutocracy disagree with me. Why do you encourage this behavior?

As mentioned previously: nightly flights to Paris are not a necessary shared commodity. Schools are. So is healthcare.

 

[Big Fitz]

Smarterthanhick you are a real case. Narcissist comes to mind. It is not that you have won anyone over with reasoning and evidence. People get tired of debating with idiots. It is like trying to debate with children. Children pose such inane ideas that you are presented with nothing to debate, just a lot of words. So have fun if you think you have won points but it isn't true. Just like your reasoning was not true but again in your mind, your emotion trumps all reasoning. Emotion, the base of most liberal views and beliefs.

Obama Care is so good that SEIU has asked for and was granted a waiver. They are now one of the over 700 applicants granted a waiver from Obama Care. So believe what you may, SEIU raised 23 million for Obama's election but don't want anything to do with Obama's flagship program - health care.

Waivers aren’t meant to protect people from unintended consequences of Obamacare; they are meant to exempt them from the very intentional increased costs of health insurance that the law causes.

Now I broke my own rule and replied to you. Last time though because the aphorism of arguing with the pig is true.

Ah I see. So you are arguing against my evidence supported claims by name-calling. For someone who seems so fixated on calling other people children, do you realize that mature debate requires refutation instead of third grade attempts at insults? How sad. Like Fitz, let me know when you'd like to actually refute facts:
Not all drugs have generics.
Older drugs almost always have worse side effect profiles.

No. You've proven too small to bother with.

I don't debate people who spout lunacy and ignore points, deliberately misconstrue points, peddle intellectually dishonest examples then move the goalposts when busted on it... then claim victory.

Back to the kiddie pool with you, Dumberthanshit. This is why I never comment to you in religion threads either.

Yeah you don't debate people who use wikipedia, reputable sources, and verifiable information. Those things are usually lunacy and misconstrued, right? Tuck tail and run along now.


Nothing except healthcare still. Who do you think is paying for that healthcare that isn't being paid by the patient?


You still are clueless about the public option. Did you even bother to read the wikipedia article? What evidence do you have that doctors are quitting when medical schools are packed to the brim and only increasing admissions? Oh right, you don't need that thing called evidence to make up "facts."


You still don't realize we're already rationing. That's sad.

National healthcare ruins nations. England and Canada prove that... and our proposed system is even worse.

Yes, England and Canada are in ruin right now. Destroyed. Third world. What a drama queen.

My Bottom line for all of this is:

If you want national Insurance/health care, then EVERYONE should pay the same. No one gets exemptions.

As opposed to now, where you pay for everyone else who won't pay for themselves. Right.

Oh boy! Dumberthanfuck has made his incorrect opinion known again.

To wit, I shall respond with the same quality.

Push harder and you may have a coherent thought... right before you have an embolism.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

So i am for the ER costs. AND that is on a triage system. If its not a true emergency they get turned away from the ER and sent to a clinic.

Syrenn, you make good points but you seem to have quite a few misconceptions, and this is a very common one. You're thinking about common little things. The cost of an emergency do not end in the ER. They don't temporarily stabilize patients and then kick them out. It a patient is only stable because of the treatment they are receiving in the ER, and removing that treatment makes them crash, they don't get discharged. In fact, the overwhelming majority of patients admitted to the hospital do so through the ER.

So that drunk driver who racked up $20,000 in the first half hour of being in the trauma bay, perhaps another $150,000 with exploratory surgery, followed by $200,000 of an ICU stay is all cost that cannot be refused by the hospital. And you've already shown that you know very well who is paying for it.

 

[syrenn]

Exactly right. So why change things, right? Well, the fact is that people like Big Fitz who COULD pay for things but don't would buy in, helping himself by avoiding ridiculous payment plans, and you by lowering your costs as well. You and everyone else with insurance would still be paying for everyone, but you'd have the added help of all the people who are working legal jobs and don't have insurance.

I agree, more would be paying into the system. People who want nothing to do with the program will also be paying into the system that i am sure will take no part of. There will be more who will be paying nothing again.

And right along with all of that you are allowing millions access to medical that they did not have access to before. Another program to suck off of, enjoy, and not pay a cent for. Another program to use and abuse and not pay a cent for.

My guess 50% would be exempt from payments. Sorry, that does not work for me. If you want the new system PAY for it. Make the payments exactly the same for every. If that is not going to work...then trash the new system. It is more of the same shit we have now.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

If we do want health insurance in some form we want to have more options

This is exactly correct, for the economic reason of more options creating more competition and thus closing the profit margin. A public option would be another way of artificially creating that end goal, which is why the largest physician group in the US, the AMA, supported it.

But you're right. It's just how we get there. Big Fitz actually listed a few things that also help towards that goal, amongst a sea of ridiculous ideas and denial.

Forget it, asshole. You want to make paying for other people's health care an obligation?

Too late, we already do. This seems to be a point that acts as the first litmus test of knowledge on this topic.

The fact that I am working poor, and cannot just pay 6 grand out of my petty cash boosts your ego?

So you're struggling with $6,000 in medical expenses. I'm sorry to hear that, but the question that RDD asked is a valid one. How do you expect to negotiate a bill that is 10 or 100 times that amount? How do you expect to deal with a single car crash? Despite your childishness here, I am sorry to hear you are burdened by the healthcare system. But how do you really expect to deal with something larger? It sounds like you're barely making it work now, and $6,000 is insignificant compared to serious medical issues.

On that note: do you realize your healthcare costs would have only been about $4000 instead of $6000 if you had insurance?

Oh boy! Dumberthanfuck has made his incorrect opinion known again.

To wit, I shall respond with the same quality.

Push harder and you may have a coherent thought... right before you have an embolism.

Still trying to contradict wikipedia with lolcats and name calling? How sad.

Just curious: do you still think your privatized schools are going to be paid for using non-existent tax dollars? Have you figured out what the public option's objectives were? Do you still think the USDA protects consumers against monopolistic insurance inflation?

 

[signelect]

A big part of the problem is the medical cost, Dr's have become accustomed to huge yearly earning so they adjust the billing to maintain the standard, cost has nothing to do with it. There is another component, why do we have to have all the test run. Lawyers pure and simple, the doctors have to play CYA. More cost, more profit. I don't have a solution but I know the answer is that someone is going to pay or you get no care.

 

[syrenn]

So i am for the ER costs. AND that is on a triage system. If its not a true emergency they get turned away from the ER and sent to a clinic.

Syrenn, you make good points but you seem to have quite a few misconceptions, and this is a very common one. You're thinking about common little things. The cost of an emergency do not end in the ER. They don't temporarily stabilize patients and then kick them out. It a patient is only stable because of the treatment they are receiving in the ER, and removing that treatment makes them crash, they don't get discharged. In fact, the overwhelming majority of patients admitted to the hospital do so through the ER.

So that drunk driver who racked up $20,000 in the first half hour of being in the trauma bay, perhaps another $150,000 with exploratory surgery, followed by $200,000 of an ICU stay is all cost that cannot be refused by the hospital. And you've already shown that you know very well who is paying for it.

Not all ER visits by the uninsured are emergencies. If i had to guess more then 75% are for bullshit. They need a prescription for this, sprained that, oh this hurts i want pan meds. Sorry all of those patients need to be sent elsewhere and refused ER treatment.

I understand the process of the ER very well as i came from the medical end of things. Your example of the drunk driver is the same for the system now and obama care, if that person is exempt from payments. Therefor the same people will be carrying the burden of cost and thy no payer drunk driver will be paying nothing for the care they are being given.

How nice the world works out for them.

So unless everyone pays the same into this system, nothing is changing.

 

[Big Fitz]

Still trying to contradict wikipedia with lolcats and name calling? How sad.

Start producing links to your 'evidence' then. I'll be happy to shred it later if it's what I expect you to produce.

 

[Big Fitz]

Just curious: do you still think your privatized schools are going to be paid for using non-existent tax dollars? Have you figured out what the public option's objectives were? Do you still think the USDA protects consumers against monopolistic insurance inflation?

I see. You just can't let the sting of getting pwned in that thread alone. Poor baby.

 

[Big Fitz]

They need a prescription for this, sprained that, oh this hurts i want pan meds. Sorry all of those patients need to be sent elsewhere and refused ER treatment.

Ding! Exactly. To a clinic. CVS pharmacy's "Minute Clinic" handles most small issues like that. But you have to show up during business hours, and not be trying to scam the system. Payment is due at time of treatment, but usually costs less than 100 bucks. ERs are easy to skip out on.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

I agree, more would be paying into the system. People who want nothing to do with the program will also be paying into the system that i am sure will take no part of. There will be more who will be paying nothing again.

And right along with all of that you are allowing millions access to medical that they did not have access to before. Another program to suck off of, enjoy, and not pay a cent for. Another program to use and abuse and not pay a cent for.

My guess 50% would be exempt from payments. Sorry, that does not work for me. If you want the new system PAY for it. Make the payments exactly the same for every. If that is not going to work...then trash the new system. It is more of the same shit we have now.

OK now we're getting some good conversation going. The question would continually come back to the concern you just expressed: Won't this mean that more people are NOT paying? I would argue no. There are just three categories right now: people who are paying for healthcare, people who COULD BE paying but aren't, and people who aren't. As you can tell, movement would only combine the first two categories, and leave the third mostly unaffected. We can go into the details of what constitutes people who could be paying but aren't.

So if this new system forces people like Big Fitz to pay into the system simply because he is working a legal job and thus tracked via taxes, it would mean more people are paying in, and less people are getting a free ride. In short: it CAN'T increase both because it is a finite and set system.

 

[syrenn]

They need a prescription for this, sprained that, oh this hurts i want pan meds. Sorry all of those patients need to be sent elsewhere and refused ER treatment.

Ding! Exactly. To a clinic. CVS pharmacy's "Minute Clinic" handles most small issues like that. But you have to show up during business hours, and not be trying to scam the system. Payment is due at time of treatment, but usually costs less than 100 bucks. ERs are easy to skip out on.

It was 11.30 pm. I needed a prescription for antibiotics that would not wait till the Dr's office was open the next day. The ER bill for a prescription and a band aid was 6k. If somewhere was open to have given me the prescription i could have taken care of the band aid myself.

Damn i should have told them i was a bum.