I want to talk about what I see as a bad faith argument from the right

[Confounding]

Right wingers regularly call the left socialist, but then when the left points to Scandinavia as an example of what they want it will often be said that "Oh, well they're not actually socialist. Try again." Oh, good, well then neither is Bernie, because there isn't a single thing he advocates for that they're not already doing over there. You can't call people like Bernie socialist and then point at Scandinavia and say "Not socialist!" You're defeating your own argument.

 

[danielpalos]

Right wingers regularly call the left socialist, but then when the left points to Scandinavia as an example of what they want it will often be said that "Oh, well they're not actually socialist. Try again." Oh, good, well then neither is Bernie, because there isn't a single thing he advocates for that they're not already doing over there. You can't call people like Bernie socialist and then point at Scandinavia and say "Not socialist!" You're defeating your own argument.

socialism on a national basis is all they know.

 

[Oddball]

The Scandinavians have all told Bernie to STFU, because they have market-based economies.

Socialism, properly defined, is ownership of the means of all production in the hands of The State.

If anyone is disingenuously saying "it's not real socialism", it's leftists when you point to its litany of total failures and abject despotism.

 

[danielpalos]

The Scandinavians have all told Bernie to STFU, because they have market-based economies.

Socialism, properly defined, is ownership of the means of all production in the hands of The State.

If anyone is disingenuously saying "it's not real socialism", it's leftists when you point to its litany of total failures and abject despotism.

right wing special pleading with political jargon is all you have.

the Proof is, you cannot explain the definition.

 

[Edgetho]

Former PM of Sweden

Carl Bildt on Twitter
Bernie Sanders was lucky to be able to get to the Soviet Union in 1988 and praise all its stunning socialist achievements before the entire system and empire collapsed under the weight of its own spectacular failures.

dimocraps are scum

 

[Confounding]

The Scandinavians have all told Bernie to STFU, because they have market-based economies.

Can you tell me some things that Bernie wants that they're not already doing over there?

 

[Confounding]

Former PM of Sweden

Carl Bildt on Twitter

dimocraps are scum

You are so incredibly fucking stupid. You really don't get it.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Bernies a fucking Commie who needs a 1 way ticket to Venezuela

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Former PM of Sweden

Carl Bildt on Twitter

dimocraps are scum

You are so incredibly fucking stupid. You really don't get it.

That's no answer, Jake.

 

[Oddball]

The Scandinavians have all told Bernie to STFU, because they have market-based economies.

Can you tell me some things that Bernie wants that they're not already doing over there?

Not the point.

Having an immense welfare state doesn't change the market-based economic model....Strictly speaking, Scandinavia is not socialist.

 

[Confounding]

Bernies a fucking Commie who needs a 1 way ticket to Venezuela

Bernie's views are in line with Scandinavia. If they're not actually socialist then neither is he. Are you arguing in bad faith or do you really not understand?

 

[Confounding]

Not the point.

That is entirely the fucking point.

Scandinavia is not socialist.

Then neither is Bernie Sanders.

 

[Edgetho]

Bernies a fucking Commie who needs a 1 way ticket to Venezuela

Bernie's views are in line with Scandinavia. If they're not actually socialist then neither is he. Are you arguing in bad faith or do you really not understand?

Here's what you don't 'get', genius.......

Bernie Sanders HIMSELF sez he's a socialist.

Because -- He is.

It's called incrementalism. First, it's Health Care, then it's a guaranteed wage, then it's confiscatory taxes and before you know it --

You've got socialism. I have nothing against socialism. I despise tyranny.

And there has NEVER, in all of history, been a socialist government that wasn't Totalitarian.

If they could make it work without the totalitarian aspect, I'd be willing to consider it.

But socialism without Totalitarianism is impossible.

And, OBTW, my name appears on a couple of books about socialism.

But I guess that doesn't mean anything to your #woke education.

 

[Oddball]

Scandinavia is not socialist.

Then neither is Bernie Sanders.

Well, you better go straighten him out, because he says he is.

In any event, Bernie is a total Marxist who can't be honest about it - a defining feature of Marxist democrats everywhere.

 

[shockedcanadian]

The definition of socialism isn't the same as the old textbooks, it's not just state control of means of production. Citizens have to look at the size of government, it's intervention in the economy and individuals lives, and in particular as I've learned in Canada; covert "control" of companies.

If you open up an IBM office in Toronto or London, and the covert police are tampering with Human Resources, putting their patsies in positions of management and executive, that's socialism in 2019. They don't need to overtly control the business, in fact, that's nt even ideal, it's all about manipulating employees within the company and treating the company as their personal playground. Dirty and deceptive.

America is about competition and free market, socialism today is Fiefdoms. You are born into government, you've got it made, if not, you will be born and die poor. This is the Canadian system today. It's not based on competition or best and brightest, it's sheer exploitation of shareholders and foreign businesses.

I suspect the Scandinavian system is similar and I'm quite confident England operates precisely like this. How many others? Impossible to know, it's all covert. The general indicator should be "how many State run services, meddling, regulations and operations exist?" I would guess the more they possess, the more it is broadly used in the nation.

THIS is socialism. The more government control and access you provide, the worse the intrusion in your life and economy. The more control you relinquish, it's a guarantee.

 

[Confounding]

Bernie Sanders HIMSELF sez he's a socialist.

Bernie is a social democrat. You're too ignorant to know the difference but there are some very important ones. The meaning of these labels are widely misunderstood so there is often confusion.

The relevant part is the kinds of policies Bernie actually stands for. They are completely in line with the Scandinavian models. Bernie has been pointing at them and saying "Let's do that." for fucking decades.

 

[DGS49]

Socialism is characterized by the Government owning all means of production, as well as farmland, mines and natural resources, and controlling the distribution of goods and all pricing; in exchange for this, the Government provides, universally and uniformly, a basket of goodies to meet the needs of the population.

When American politicians identify themselves as "Socialists," what they really want to do is to emulate the social democracies of Europe, which are basically CAPITALIST economies (private property, private farms, extensive entrepreneurial climate & relatively free markets), where government has taken upon itself (financed by the taxpayers) the burden of providing a large basket of goodies to the population, so that theoretically no one is homeless, starving, naked, or sick (for long).

So it's not a matter of Republicans calling these politicians (incorrectly) "socialists." This is what they incorrectly call themselves.

BTW Sweden and other often-mentioned countries are not Socialist, and their leaders bristle that such a characterization. If they did not have private property, large, successful private businesses, and relatively free markets, there would be no money to pay the taxes to pay for the large basket of goodies.

The folly of being an American Democrat/Socialist is that THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL NEVER PAY THE LEVEL OF TAXES THAT WOULD BE REQUIRED TO PAY FOR THE BASKET OF GOODIES, not to mention that such a "risky scheme" would be unconstitutional. And in my opinion, we do not have a sufficiently-strong work ethic to sustain such a system. In other words, if you provide, for example, a guaranteed annual income, half the fucking population will try to sign up for it. Which is also a growing problem in Europe, especially with the new immigrant hordes.

 

[Confounding]

Well, you better go straighten him out, because he says he is.

I would love to ask him why he didn't label himself a Nordic capitalist instead. The problem is you people are all stuck on labels. These labels are constantly misused and misunderstood.

 

[Confounding]

The definition of socialism isn't the same as the old textbooks, it's not just state control of means of production. Citizens have to look at the size of government, it's intervention in the economy and individuals lives, and in particular as I've learned in Canada; covert "control" of companies.

If you open up an IBM office in Toronto or London, and the covert police are tampering with Human Resources, putting their patsies in positions of management and executive, that's socialism in 2019. They don't need to overtly control the business, in fact, that's nt even ideal, it's all about manipulating employees within the company and treating the company as their personal playground. Dirty and deceptive.

America is about competition and free market, socialism today is Fiefdoms. You are born into government, you've got it made, if not, you will be born and die poor. This is the Canadian system today. It's not based on competition or best and brightest, it's sheer exploitation of shareholders and foreign businesses.

I suspect the Scandinavian system is similar and I'm quite confident England operates precisely like this. How many others? Impossible to know, it's all covert. The general indicator should be "how many State run services, meddling, regulations and operations exist?" I would guess the more they possess, the more it is broadly used in the nation.

THIS is socialism. The more government control and access you provide, the worse the intrusion in your life and economy. The more control you relinquish, it's a guarantee.

Let me just ask this...

Do you agree that Bernie's ideology proposes that we do exactly what they do in Scandinavia?

 

[impuretrash]

Right wingers regularly call the left socialist, but then when the left points to Scandinavia as an example of what they want it will often be said that "Oh, well they're not actually socialist. Try again." Oh, good, well then neither is Bernie, because there isn't a single thing he advocates for that they're not already doing over there. You can't call people like Bernie socialist and then point at Scandinavia and say "Not socialist!" You're defeating your own argument.