If the U.S. has no separation of church and state, what is the state religion?

[ScreamingEagle]

There are challenges to prayers lead by employees of state institutions or group prayers.

Are you saying your religion requires that you pray in groups? Does God not hear your prayer unless it is part of an event? In fact, I recall a parable in the bible condemning such showy praying.

No, it does not, but it (the 2nd Amendment) forbids the Federal Government from forbidding me to pray in groups.

The federal gov't does not forbid you from praying in groups.

They only forbid you from using public property (meaning paid for and maintained by all taxpayers) when doing so. No federal law has ever been against prayer in groups.

then why are muslim students allowed to use public property.....Michigan public schools.....for prayer....?

Should Muslims Be Allowed to Pray in Public Schools? Michigan Says 'Yes'

 

[ScreamingEagle]

A lot of religious nuts insist there is no separation of church and state in the United States because the constitution doesn't use the exact words "separation of church and state."

If there is no separation of church and state, than that means there must be an official state religion.

I'd like to know what they think it is.

Obviously, barring the establishment of a state religion means the exact same thing as separation of church and state. It's a synonym.

i'd have to say the 'state religion' is Islam.....

while not completely installed yet you can see the tacit federal support of the incremental spread of Islamic culture.....you have muslim children kneeling on their little prayer rugs bowing and praying toward Mecca on public school property.....plus many more "accomodations" such as foot baths in public restrooms....not to mention the the U.S. Federal Government even went to Tennessee to hold muslim 'education' meetings....and NASA funds for muslim 'relations'....

it appears the federal government is going out of its way to accomodate and promote Islam while at the same time going out of its way to attack Christianity....(note that Christianity is the antithesis of Islam)

 

[Kosh]

It is funny to see the far left invoke the "separation of Church and state" in many political ranting's, yet have no clue what it means.

If there were true separation of "church and state" the government would not be allowed to perform weddings, we would not have "so help you God" in the court rooms.

However this same phrase was used in order to remove the ten commandants from in front of government buildings like court rooms.

The Separation Of Church and State

The phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear anywhere in the Constitution. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the 1st Amendment erected a "wall of separation" between the church and the state (James Madison said it "drew a line," but it is Jefferson's term that sticks with us today). The phrase is commonly thought to mean that the government should not establish, support, or otherwise involve itself in any religion. The Religion Topic Page addresses this issue in much greater detail.

Things That Are Not In the U.S. Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

If you want a true separation of church and state then you need to remove government from marriage.

 

[Little-Acorn]

Keep in mind that the 1st amendment says, "Congress shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...".

Catch that first word?

Thge 1st amendment was written to apply only to the Federal government (Congress). States and local government were still free to establish or prohibit religions all the wanted.

It was written that way because, at the time the BOR was ratified, most states had official state religions! And the 1st amendment was carefully designed to NOT interfere with that.

Later ratification of the 14th amendment, changed that.

Notice too, that while the 1st amendment was designed to apply only to the Federal govt, the 2nd amendment had no such restriction. By not naming any particular government that was forbidden to infringe on the right to KBA, the 2nd amendment forbade ALL governments in the country, from infringing... from the very day it was ratified. It didn't have to wait for the 14th amendment.

 

[Amelia]

A lot of religious nuts insist there is no separation of church and state in the United States because the constitution doesn't use the exact words "separation of church and state."

If there is no separation of church and state, than that means there must be an official state religion.

I'd like to know what they think it is.

Obviously, barring the establishment of a state religion means the exact same thing as separation of church and state. It's a synonym.

Why do you make a post which is so easy to flip on its head?

Which state religion are people afraid will be officially established if people are allowed to post a cross at a veteran's memorial or sing traditional songs during winter holiday programs or call the tinselly evergreen tree at the capitol a "Christmas tree"?

Is that the first step toward the U.S. declaring Lutheranism to be the official state religion?

 

[peach174]

Just asking.

Does the Federal Government recognize as a holiday any special day for any other religion?

News Year Day
A Pagan Holiday.


Christmas is
Birth of Christ
Winter Solstice pagan holiday

New Years Day is celebrated by most cultures. (And not all on Jan 1st)

So is Christmas - celebrated all around in the world (And not all on Dec. 25 th.

Okay let me ask this way, any other federal holiday with the Religious Name associated with it. It's called Christmas not Winter Solstice Day.

No

News Years has been celebrated since Babylonian times since the 3rd millennium BCE
and makes it the oldest pagan holiday celebrated around the world to this very day.

It is still celebrated the same way today as it was back then, with drinking and making resolutions to change part of your life.
So that makes News Year a pagan celebration.

 

[The Rabbi]

Is it Argumentum ad absurdum? Because what you are saying is that no one can tell anyone what their religion requires. You do that defending group prayer events, which as a Christian I had never seen any biblical basis for.

Is a Wiccan ceremony on public so farfetched? If so, it is only because of their fear of fundamentalist Christians.

yes it is an argumentum ad absurdum fallacy. You want to say that if I think Christians should be able to pray before football games then I also must support human sacrifice. That is absurd.

I am telling you you cannot dictate to others what the requirements of their religion are. That is part of free exercise.

And I am telling you that, like the plaque in OK by the Satanists, your claim will open the door for many other kinds of religious rituals. That is certainly not absurd.

If you want to be able to pray and have a single religious faith represented at the football game, build your own schools and private stadiums. Otherwise, you are demanding that you be allowed to use properties and facilities paid for by all taxpayers to benefit your own religious ceremonies.

It isnt my claim. And we already have case law that gets down to minutiae about acceptable religious practice in public life.
The fact is most people in this country are Christians. So at events they have a Christian, maybe not obnoxiusly so,prayer. The rest of us understand that and we can be accomodating for the 10 seconds it might take every once in a while.
Claiming we need to purge religion from public life is absurd.

 

[BlindBoo]

News Year Day
A Pagan Holiday.


Christmas is
Birth of Christ
Winter Solstice pagan holiday

New Years Day is celebrated by most cultures. (And not all on Jan 1st)

Okay let me ask this way, any other federal holiday with the Religious Name associated with it. It's called Christmas not Winter Solstice Day.

So is Christmas - celebrated all around in the world (And not all on Dec. 25 th.

No

News Years has been celebrated since Babylonian times since the 3rd millennium BCE
and makes it the oldest pagan holiday celebrated around the world to this very day.

It is still celebrated the same way today as it was back then, with drinking and making resolutions to change part of your life.
So that makes News Year a pagan celebration.

Christmas is only celebrated by Christians right? (As a religious holiday, not the commercialized orgy of materialism we have). New Years is celebrated by nearly all cultures not just Pagans.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

New Years Day is celebrated by most cultures. (And not all on Jan 1st)

Okay let me ask this way, any other federal holiday with the Religious Name associated with it. It's called Christmas not Winter Solstice Day.

So is Christmas - celebrated all around in the world (And not all on Dec. 25 th.

No

News Years has been celebrated since Babylonian times since the 3rd millennium BCE
and makes it the oldest pagan holiday celebrated around the world to this very day.

It is still celebrated the same way today as it was back then, with drinking and making resolutions to change part of your life.
So that makes News Year a pagan celebration.

Christmas is only celebrated by Christians right? (As a religious holiday, not the commercialized orgy of materialism we have). New Years is celebrated by nearly all cultures not just Pagans.

95% Americans celebrate Christmas for whatever reason......increasingly more are celebrating for 'strongly religious' reasons....

Christmas Strongly Religious for Half in U.S. Who Celebrate It

 

[JakeStarkey]

Actually the percentage of religious and spiritual Americans are decreasing.

 

[blackhawk]

A lot of religious nuts insist there is no separation of church and state in the United States because the constitution doesn't use the exact words "separation of church and state."

If there is no separation of church and state, than that means there must be an official state religion.

I'd like to know what they think it is.

Obviously, barring the establishment of a state religion means the exact same thing as separation of church and state. It's a synonym.

Sorry I have never seen anyone claim that.

 

[Kosh]

Actually the percentage of religious and spiritual Americans are decreasing.

Link?

 

[Political Junky]

So, in your opinion should the birthday of the Messiah be a federal holiday?

You may want to look at the history behind President Lincoln proclaiming a day of "Thanksgiving", if you believe there is a problem in having our nation recognize Christmas.

Just asking.

Does the Federal Government recognize as a holiday any special day for any other religion?

Celebration of Christmas was forbidden by the Pilgrims.

Christmas in Puritan New England - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Christmas celebrations in Puritan New England (1620–1850?) were culturally and legally suppressed and thus, virtually non-existent. The Puritan community found no Scriptural justification for celebrating Christmas, and associated such celebrations with paganism and idolatry. The earliest years of the Plymouth Colony were troubled with non-Puritans attempting to make merry, and Governor William Bradford was forced to reprimand offenders. English laws suppressing the holiday were enacted in the Interregnum, but repealed late in the 17th century. However, the Puritan view of Christmas and its celebration had gained cultural ascendancy in New England, and Christmas celebrations continued to be discouraged despite being legal. When Christmas became a Federal holiday in 1870, the Puritan view was relaxed and late nineteenth-century Americans fashioned the day into the Christmas of commercialism, liberal spirituality, and nostalgia that most Americans recognize today.

 

[Ernie S.]

There are challenges to prayers lead by employees of state institutions or group prayers.

Are you saying your religion requires that you pray in groups? Does God not hear your prayer unless it is part of an event? In fact, I recall a parable in the bible condemning such showy praying.

No, it does not, but it (the 2nd Amendment) forbids the Federal Government from forbidding me to pray in groups.

The federal gov't does not forbid you from praying in groups.

They only forbid you from using public property (meaning paid for and maintained by all taxpayers) when doing so. No federal law has ever been against prayer in groups.

That is unconstitutional.
You have no right to not hear a prayer. If a government agency such as a school hired a preacher to come and proselytize to assembled masses at a game or a graduation, you might have an argument, but my right to pray is independent of my location.

If you don't believe in a supreme being, fine. I can live with that but I do and you have ano right to prohibit the free exercise of my religion

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You mean the one that was actually built?

Yes, apparently they were free to worship as they pleased.

They actually got one built?

I did not know that.

Right across the street

What they got is a lawsuit because the Imam turned out to be more interested in money than a community center. Perhaps you should stop living in fantasy land and take a look at the real world.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

A lot of religious nuts insist there is no separation of church and state in the United States because the constitution doesn't use the exact words "separation of church and state."

If there is no separation of church and state, than that means there must be an official state religion.

I'd like to know what they think it is.

Obviously, barring the establishment of a state religion means the exact same thing as separation of church and state. It's a synonym.

Damn, you really do know everything, don't you?

No, but I know more than you and I don't falsely claim to have read a scientific journal article.

How much do I know?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

No, it doesn't. Fallacy fail. Thread fail.
/end

Explain how it's a fallacy.

You can not because it is not.

You posit an either/or fallacy. Either the U.S. has separation of church and state Or there is an official religion.
There are many other possibilities.

Geez, debating with these people is like wrestling kittens.

China does not have a state religion, nor do they have separation of church and state. I am sure that little detail won't change the idiots opinion because he already knows all the answers, but it is a fun fact nonetheless.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If there is no separation of church and state, than that means there must be an official state religion.

No, it doesn't mean that.

(So much for that thread.)

If there is no separation between a government and a religion, of course it means there would be a government established religion. That's what no separation means, you idiot.

Explain China.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

There are challenges to prayers lead by employees of state institutions or group prayers.

Are you saying your religion requires that you pray in groups? Does God not hear your prayer unless it is part of an event? In fact, I recall a parable in the bible condemning such showy praying.

They are not. They are challenges from some aggrieved party egged on by the ACLU.
WHo are you to tell people what their religion requires?

So anyone can claim any action to be part of their religious practices, and it must be accepted regardless of what their own doctrines and holy texts actually say?

Are you sure you want to open THAT door? Many Wiccans believe their rituals should be performed "skyclad" (meaning naked). If your school led prayer should not be stopped, why should their skyclad rituals be stopped?

Yes.

For the record, I fully support the right of Wiccans to pray whenever, and however, they want. I do this because, unlike you, I actually believe in freedom, and see no reason the government should be able to tell anyone what they can, and cannot, do simply because it offends prudes like you.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Is Christmas a Federal Holiday?

Is MLK day?? Does not mean that we deify MLK as a country

Is Arbor Day a federal holiday? Does that mean we have a state religion of druidism??

Arbor Day is not a federal holiday.