Iraq vs. Georgia

[Tech_Esq]

Hyper-partisanship is your disease.

There are plenty of tyrants in the world doing much worse things than Saddam did. We aren't invading anywhere in Africa because they don't have resources we want to stabilize. There's no benefit of blowing up Sudan and establishing bases.

We are in Iraq because of oil. It's pretty simple. Too bad you're so obsessed with being a republican that you cannot understand the motivations of your president and his advisers.

CC I think you are both right and wrong. It is true that if Iraq or its neighbors didn't have oil, we probably never would have gone there. But, then again, a country should never involve itself in some place that is not in its national interest.

Where I think you are wrong is that the "No blood for oil" mantra, makes it sound literal. Like if we go to Iraq, we will be able to back up the super tankers and get us some oil. (i.e. raping Iraq for their oil resources). I think it is fairly clear that did not occur and will not be occurring in the future.

From an economic and way of life preservation perspective, I don't think you could find many things better or more important to go to war for than maintaining consistent flows of oil. That may change (hopefully soon), but right now, we need oil and we need it bad. Jimmy Carter understood that and that why he created the Carter Doctrine in the first place. The Carter Doctrine

I'm not saying that because I think Carter was a foreign policy genius, but more in the nature of "even an idiot could see it."

 

[Orange_Juice]

Was it right for Union troops to invade Virginia in 1861?

The point is that South Ossetia is part of the country of Georgia. If there is no right for a country to preserve its union, then the invasion of the Confederate States of America, by the United States of America was an illegitimate war.

Says who??? Hell, if you make that argument you could also say that since Georgia was part of the soviet union the russians are just going into their own back yard

 

[DiamondDave]

Hyper-partisanship is your disease.

There are plenty of tyrants in the world doing much worse things than Saddam did. We aren't invading anywhere in Africa because they don't have resources we want to stabilize. There's no benefit of blowing up Sudan and establishing bases.

We are in Iraq because of oil. It's pretty simple. Too bad you're so obsessed with being a republican that you cannot understand the motivations of your president and his advisers.

Yes... there are other tyrants... but unfortunately we do not have justification for wiping out the ruling elite of Saudi Arabia, or the leadership in various other countries with despot leaders...

In Iraq, we had the justification.... unfortunately Daddy Bush did not complete the job the first time, and Clinton did squat...

It was not just about a presence, and not just about oil, and it was not about 'stealing' oil, etc...

Yes, it is advantageous for us to have a presence in that region... but that is only a benefit from the action

To bad that you are completely partisan and biased to the point of being blind... it has to be the big bad Republicans and hitler Bush or all about oil or whatever

Funny I don't see the same questions being asked as to why socialists like Obama want to play Robin Hood, promising 'free' stuff, etc...

 

[Tech_Esq]

Says who??? Hell, if you make that argument you could also say that since Georgia was part of the soviet union the russians are just going into their own back yard

Did you miss the part where the Soviet Union broke up? I don't think you can rightly make the comparison between a government formed by consent of the governed and a forcible occupation at the point of a machine gun or tank.

History actually precedes the 1917 Russian revolution.

 

[Avatar4321]

So we are just the good guys spreading happiness and they are evil spreading badness!

I get it now! I'll just keep telling myself, We are good, they are bad, we are good they are bad, we are good they are bad.............

Do you deny that Russia invaded a Representative government for their own power?

Do you deny that we invaded a Totalitarian government to liberate it?

You can try to pretend as though the reasons I stated aren't legitimate by mocking them all you want. It doesn't change the fact that the dynamics of the nations involved and the motivations clearly make the two endevours different.

Now if you have legitimate complaints with the obvious differences i pointed out, feel free to make them. if you just want to mock me while pretending you are somehow superior without even making a single valid point, go ahead. but dont be surprised if people think less of you.

 

[Avatar4321]

i don't think anyone is in favor of russia invading georgia.

the question is why is it ok for georgia to invade south ossetia.

South Ossetia is a freaking province of Georgia. It's impossible to invade yourself.

 

[Avatar4321]

that's the best ya got?

georgia was part of the soviet union....see where that gets ya?

the point is liberty for the people.

but i'm happy to discuss the civil war...it's a fairly weak analogy though...there's no slavery going on in georgia/ossetia.

the ossetian have their own language.

they've been there for hundreds and hundereds of years...

The Soviet Union hasnt existed for over a decade. Georgia is a sovereign nation. Georgia has never been part of Russia.

South Ossestia is not a sovereign nation. It is not recognized as a nation. It is a region of Georgia.

This isnt a matter of liberty for the people. This is a matter of Russia trying to steal Georgia back piece by piece and inciting the conflict through dishonest tactics and attacks in Georgia.

 

[Avatar4321]

Says who??? Hell, if you make that argument you could also say that since Georgia was part of the soviet union the russians are just going into their own back yard

The Soviet Union does not exist anymore.A nation that does not exist cannot take back it's own land.

South Ossestia is part of Georgia. It has not been recognized as an independent nation.

This isn't that difficult to understand. But apparently those who object to liberating Iraq are the same people who are fully supporting Russia overthrowing a democratic nation. What a freaking surprise.

And you wonder why we think you guys are dangerous to freedom.

 

[User Name:]

Actually, Georgia was part of Russia for about a hundred years prior to the existence to the USSR.

The fact that South Ossetia is not currently recognized as an independent state is irrelevant. Remember Kosovo? Who was bombing who then? And on behalf of who? Who supported Kosovar sovereignty when they could have just remained silent?

The South Ossetians clearly do not wish to be part of Georiga, and neither do the Abkhazians for that matter. Does anyone doubt this? Therefore one wonders: what ever happened to self-determination?

Then there's the question: what precisely did the South Ossetians do, with both Georgian and Russian peacekeepers in country, that forced the President of Georgia to respond with an indiscrimate artillery bombardment against a civilian center at precisely the same time the Olympic games were begining? And this only hours after declaring a cease fire?

Quite clearly while declaring a cease fire Georgia was simultaneously preparing an attack. Does that not bother anyone?

And again, what about the timing? Was he hoping for distraction? Or perhaps assuming (wrongly as it turns out) that the Russians would be unwilling to respond during the Olympics?

Anyway you look at it, it's hard to frame the Georgians as the good guys as some people seem to do.

Also, as an aside, contrary to what has been written here, oil is a consideration for the U.S. in its relations with both Georgia and Sudan.

 

[Orange_Juice]

1) Do you deny that Russia invaded a Representative government for their own power?

2) Do you deny that we invaded a Totalitarian government to liberate it?

.

1) You mean the Representative government that was trying to swallow up its free neighbor?

2) That was no threat to us

Big countries pushing around small countries, that's all this is

 

[AllieBaba]

If oil is our sole reason for warring with Iraq, one wonders...why didn't we just invade Mexico, instead?

 

[AllieBaba]

Or Canada? I think they'd probably be easier to conquer.

 

[random3434]

wow. you are doing that?

brilliant...

Have you seen this yet?




[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHkqAqbYafI]YouTube - Georgia&Russia - True American Talking From Russia testimony MUST SEE![/ame]

 

[Tech_Esq]

Actually, Georgia was part of Russia for about a hundred years prior to the existence to the USSR.

True 1801-1917. South Ossetia was a province of Georgia even then and has never been separate from Georgia historically.

The fact that South Ossetia is not currently recognized as an independent state is irrelevant.

It is very relevant. If South Ossetia is a break away province from a sovereign country, then that country has a right to deal with its breakaway militarily, if necessary, to get it back under control. I believe this happened in the US once or twice (Whiskey Rebellion, War Between the States). I believe in the latter case, self-determination was exercised as well. Votes held for secession etc. Somehow we all think it was all right for the North to attack the South and bring them back into line. You can't just say slavery and make all of that all right. That ignores the larger issue. Either "self-determination" is respected or it isn't.

The rest of it is pretty much a non-issue if Georgia has the right to deal with its own breakaway province.

Also, as an aside, contrary to what has been written here, oil is a consideration for the U.S. in its relations with both Georgia and Sudan.

I've found no support for this contention. We do not import oil from either of those countries according to the sources that I looked at. If we do get any oil from either of them, it's less than 1%. To the extent that oil is an important resource and we take that into consideration in foreign relations, I guess you could say that much.

 

[Ravi]

Oil is sold on the world market. Any shortage world wide affects oil prices.

 

[Jennifer.Bush]

south Ossetia Is A Freaking Province Of Georgia. It's Impossible To Invade Yourself.

Lmaooooooooooooooooooooo

 

[jreeves]

yeah, we went in hoping saddam would have a big stack of oil barrels, just sitting there, ready for us to take back to the US.

did you maybe consider the fact that our govt wanted to have a friendly, stable ally in the region with big oil reserves who would also allow us to have bases between iran and the rest of the ME? youre looking at it in a very narrow way

Kuwait, is just chopped liver...

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So we are just the good guys spreading happiness and they are evil spreading badness!

I get it now! I'll just keep telling myself, We are good, they are bad, we are good they are bad, we are good they are bad.............

That is all you got from that? You are hopelessly stupid.

 

[editec]

Ok, so the meme is that Iraq and the Geogia deals are equivalent, right? I'm asking this of Obama supporters, the ones that seem to be posting such.

I'll probably be pulling the lever for O.

I don't think these situations are the same.

They have some very minor similarities, but they are not at all equivalent.

Here's the similarities as I see it:

1. they're both in part about controlling oil/natural gas resources.

2. Both pit a very large very powerful nation against a smaller one.

That's about it in the similarity department.

 

[Tech_Esq]

I'll probably be pulling the lever for O.

I don't think these situations are the same.

They have some very minor similarities, but they are not at all equivalent.

Here's the similarities as I see it:

1. they're both in part about controlling oil/natural gas resources.

2. Both pit a very large very powerful nation against a smaller one.

That's about it in the similarity department.

A very measured and thoughtful response. I would only quibble with you about the first. I'm believe with Ambassador Holbrook that this is really about Putin's regional ambition than about natural resources. Putin has been working this deal for several years and it's about Russian regional hegemony.