Is a state funded education a right?

[editec]

My point is that it is not smart to educate every one. Or at least attempt to.
My point is that it is not a constitutional right.

So what would happen if Constitutionalist Libertarians got in charge?

If Libertarians took over the Sahara desert?

They'd squabble over who owned the sand.

 

[uscitizen]

How would the state not paying for your education violate any of your constitutional rights?

Depends on the STATE consitution, doesn't it?

Heard recently that the first state to mandate compulsuary ED took that step around 1840.

The last state to mandate compulsary education made that decision around 1910.

These are currently mostly STATE decisions.

The FEDS don't really have that responsibility.

Then should the feds give the states any money for education?

 

[lawbuff]

The founders left it up to the states to determine this issue. Since all state constitutions guarantee some form of free public education, they must be consistent with federally guaranteed constitutional rights, such as the Fourteenth Amendment's right to equal protection under the law. This was most notably applied in regards to school desegregation.

Also, school supensions/expulsions of students are scrutinized under the 14th Amendment's Due Process Clause, not only state laws.

 

[jillian]

So what would happen if Constitutionalist Libertarians got in charge?

They'd destroy the Constitution because they don't understand anything about how it's supposed to be construed or what a common law system of jurisprudence is.

 

[Samson]

How would the state not paying for your education violate any of your constitutional rights?

Depends on the STATE consitution, doesn't it?

Heard recently that the first state to mandate compulsuary ED took that step around 1840.

The last state to mandate compulsary education made that decision around 1910.

These are currently mostly STATE decisions.

The FEDS don't really have that responsibility.

Then should the feds give the states any money for education?

There are only three ways that I'm aware of that the Feds give any money to states for educational purposes, and none of it goes directly into classrooms, per se.

1. Federal Grants; feds give money in return for studies about the efficacy of its use. E.G. Computers in the classroom may be paid for through a federal grant, if the grant is to study the efficacy of computers in the classroom of mostly rural students with special needs.

2. Special Education; Through IDEA, thirty years ago, the feds mandated through statute that States could not exclude Handicapped individuals from school systems. In fact, the mandate goes as far as requiring School Systems to specifically advertise their services for Individuals with Disabilities. Funding to implement and maintain this extraordinarily expensive burden was initially supposed to be largely from the Feds, but they don't often pick up the tab.

My guess is that most districts would rather pay the expense themselves than hassel with the Federal Requirements necessary to receive money from the Feds. In larger districts this mightn't be the case, and it is more likely in small, rural districts.

3. Title I: Although I really don't count Free and Reduced Lunch as money toward education, as with all things that the Feds do, its good to keep a flexible perspective: I.E. this "Entitlement" is justified because parents of the poor cannot pack a lunch, and the kid will just starve to death before they can learn the uselessness of adding fractions.

Also, this is the main carrot-and-stick the feds use to implement NCLB: Fuck with our accountability standards, and we'll remove your Title I funds.

But worst of all, without free and reduced lunch, the poor parents would be so distraught with having to make PBJ sammiches, that they may not vote for whomever would be tarred in the media for jeaoprdizing, or reducing, or eliminating the program's budget.

 

[uscitizen]

Parents actually having to prepare lunches for their children
Or worse yet, feed them breakfast before school?

 

[Samson]

So what would happen if Constitutionalist Libertarians got in charge?

They'd destroy the Constitution because they don't understand anything about how it's supposed to be construed or what a common law system of jurisprudence is.

Yes, its always very important for whichever party is in power to know the proper way to Construe the Constitution.

 

[Samson]

Parents actually having to prepare lunches for their children
Or worse yet, feed them breakfast before school?

Don't get fucking crazy on us, dude.

Next thing you'll want is parents to teach ethical behavior, and morals.

 

[uscitizen]

Parents actually having to prepare lunches for their children
Or worse yet, feed them breakfast before school?

Don't get fucking crazy on us, dude.

Next thing you'll want is parents to teach ethical behavior, and morals.

Now I am not sure that even a loonie like myself would go that far into the ethersphere.

 

[Bezukhov]

I like this quote by Murray Rothbard:

Indeed, if we look into the history of the drive for public schooling and compulsory attendance in this and other countries, we find at the root not so much misguided altruism as a conscious scheme to coerce the mass of the population into a mould desired by the Establishment. (For a New Liberty by M Rothbard pg 122)

This was the thinking of many influential people at the birth of our Nation:

From the Massachussets Bay Colony 1642:

"For as much as the good education of children is of singular behoof and
benefit to any commonwealth, and whereas many parents and masters
are too indulgent and negligent of their duty of that kind, it is ordered
that the selectmen of every town… shall have a vigilant eye over their
neighbors, to see first that none of them shall suffer so much barbarism
in any of their families, as not to endeavor to teach, by themselves or​

others, their children and apprentices…."

Archibald D. Murphey, the​

father of the public school system in North Carolina:

"…all the children will be taught in them….In these schools the precepts
of morality and religion should be inculcated, and habits of
subordination and obedience be formed…. Their parents know not how
to instruct them….The state, in the warmth of her affection and
solicitude for their welfare, must take charge of those children, and
place them in school where their minds can be enlightened and their​

hearts can be trained to virtue."

 

[JW Frogen]

Without a public school system our puber-manic young boys would be roaming our streets and molesting our pets, we need to keep our young people penned up pretending they are learning something, anything, until they are no longer dangerous.

 

[chanel]

Well said frogen. That's why I feel that I earn every dime of my paycheck. Even if we can't "save the children" at least we are saving the small animals. Cats are people too. lol

 

[Annie]

but they did mention public schools in Land Acts. So obviously they wanted some sort of educational system.

I'm not familiar with your sitation, but I'm certain they did want some sort of educational system. My guess is it would have been something very localized, and "public" (in the same way that British Schools were; paid for by students' parents) only through grammar school. All higher education was private.

I shouldn't have said public, but I can't remember the name of the act.( I will google)
It is the one where they came up with the plan to how towns would be laid out in a grid pattern, and there would be a plot designated for a school in every town. I will find it now. Lol

The Northwest Ordinance.

There were two reasons the early fathers wanted children educated. 1. Be able to read the bible, which went back to colonial times. 2. Educated electorate, after the Constitution was ratified.

 

[JW Frogen]

Well said frogen. That's why I feel that I earn every dime of my paycheck. Even if we can't "save the children" at least we are saving the small animals. Cats are people too. lol

I bet you are one of those hot teachers Ms. Chanel. I learned to love reading simply because my teacher, Mrs. Doulter, had fantastic breasts and when she read Watership Down to the class I really understood the joy of reading and breast perving.

 

[chanel]

Mrs. Doulter?

 

[JW Frogen]

She does make a very rational argument for the need of continual adult education.

And I promise, now that I am a man, I will do my homework.

 

[xotoxi]

Is a state funded education a right?

First you have to answer this question: "Is a state funded education a WRONG?"

 

[Samson]

I like this quote by Murray Rothbard:

Indeed, if we look into the history of the drive for public schooling and compulsory attendance in this and other countries, we find at the root not so much misguided altruism as a conscious scheme to coerce the mass of the population into a mould desired by the Establishment. (For a New Liberty by M Rothbard pg 122)

Of course, and this would be great, Except for one thing: We don't know WTF a "mould desired by the establishment" is. In the USA, its not even clear what the "Establishment" is.

This was the thinking of many influential people at the birth of our Nation:

From the Massachussets Bay Colony 1642:

"For as much as the good education of children is of singular behoof and
benefit to any commonwealth, and whereas many parents and masters
are too indulgent and negligent of their duty of that kind, it is ordered
that the selectmen of every town… shall have a vigilant eye over their
neighbors, to see first that none of them shall suffer so much barbarism
in any of their families, as not to endeavor to teach, by themselves or​

others, their children and apprentices…."

Unhappily, no state today is anything like the Massachussets Bay Colony in 1642. If it was, we'd have stacked rocks on top of Edward Kennedy to confess his sins.

Archibald D. Murphey, the​

father of the public school system in North Carolina:

"…all the children will be taught in them….In these schools the precepts
of morality and religion should be inculcated, and habits of
subordination and obedience be formed…. Their parents know not how
to instruct them….The state, in the warmth of her affection and
solicitude for their welfare, must take charge of those children, and
place them in school where their minds can be enlightened and their​

hearts can be trained to virtue."

The root problem that Archie identified is correct: parents.

I wonder if Archie would have advocated schools "taking charge of those children" 24/7?

We call this "Juvenile Detention."

 

[Samson]

Without a public school system our puber-manic young boys would be roaming our streets and molesting our pets, we need to keep our young people penned up pretending they are learning something, anything, until they are no longer dangerous.

Frogen, you've given me an unsettling, unwelcome, yet unsurprising glimpse into your adolesence.

 

[uscitizen]

Is a state funded education a right?

First you have to answer this question: "Is a state funded education a WRONG?"

Nope, Is state funded education a right as in a constitutiional right.