Islamic honor killings

[gallantwarrior]

>> Recently, a story appeared in Huffington Post about a 16 year old Turkish girl who was buried alive by her father and grandfather for having talked to boys. The West rightly finds this a horrific practice. However, many in the West also misunderstand and conveniently condemn honor killing as a practice of Islam. The mistake with this condemnation is that Islam does not permit or condone honor killing. However, it is precisely this misunderstanding and ignorance that allows many in the West to participate in a climate of hate, mistrust and even the idea of war against all of Islam.

... Fueling the charge of "crazy" in the cases of honor killing is the concept of honor. What is honor? Traditionally, honor in this context means one's reputation or good name. The concept of honor may come from the need to be perceived as perfect in the eyes of one's community because if one's community sees a person as flawless, then perhaps so will God and they will easily enter Heaven. Since God is such a far away concept, the instant gratification of the approval of one's neighbors or one's community of a father and his family's lifestyle and their adherence to Islam's rules becomes more immediate and in many cases is used as an indication of one's perfection in the eyes of God. However, it should be noted this is a centuries-old cultural practice with, in some cases, only the slightest connection to Islam. In many cases, honor is connected to the sexual purity of one's daughter or female family member, which is too big a topic to be examined here.

And while some in the West see honor killing as "evidence" that Islam is a bad religion, many in the East condemn the West as being a place with an evil culture where women have sex with countless numbers of men followed by countless numbers of abortions all in the name of their feminist, godless freedom with absolutely no respect for life. And because East and West each perceive the other as having no respect for life because of their honor killings and abortions, it becomes easier for some in our respective cultures to hate the other even more. <<

(case history 1):

>> In Rana Husseini's Murder in the Name of Honor, Ms. Husseini describes an interview in a Jordanian jail she had with a young man named Sarhan who in 1999 shot his sister Yasmin because she was no longer a virgin after she had been raped by a brother-in-law.

In the interview, Sarhan explained, "'I killed her because she was no longer a virgin,' he told me. 'She made a mistake, willingly or not. It is better that one person dies than the whole family of shame and disgrace. It is like a box of apples. If you have one rotten apple would you keep it or get rid of it? I just got rid of it.' When I challenged Sarhan by pointing out that his act contradicted the teachings of Islam and was punishable by God, he said, 'I know that killing my sister is against Islam and it angered God, but I had to do what I had to do and I will answer to God when the time comes." He added, "I know my sister was killed unjustly but what can I do? This is how society thinks. Nobody really wants to kill his own sister." <<

(case history 2):

>> ... I, Rinde, grew up in Turkey and quickly realized it was not favorable to be born a girl. No matter what my brothers did it was accepted by my parents. On the other hand, they would talk over me as if I had nothing significant to say. My brothers and my parents would beat me on many occasions, especially when I did something to displease them, such as dare to talk back to them which was disapproved of since they were men. However, it was okay for them to slap me around to put me on "the right path".

Their abuse was not dictated by religion since my brothers were not really religious, nor did it come from love to "help me be a better person". However, I got off easy, because there were occasions where women would suddenly be missing. These women would vanish without a trace. It would be reported by a family in my village that "my daughter has committed suicide". It was obvious that they were killed by a family member, but no one would dare say anything. Being Kurdish, the customs of our culture even before Islam's arrival are more cemented than even the religion itself in the name of deeply rooted rituals and beliefs. Besides, most people never really study the Quran and have a very limited, distorted view of their own religion. Thus, they act on cultural impulse as Sarhan so aptly described it.<<

--- Deepak Chopra, Jim Buck and Rinde Pasori, "A Practical Approach to Talking about Honor Killing"​

See why I keep insisting culture is where it's at as a motivator? Not only are laws powerless against it --- religion is too.

Is murder not condemned in these cultural milieus?

 

[Pogo]

"Honor killing" is not Islamic, Jizzhat. It's not associated with any religion at all. It's way older than Islam, older than Christianism, older than Judaism or Buddhism. It's a cultural artifact from antiquity, and it has no religious function. Not in Islam, not in Christianism, not in Hinduism, not in Sikhism --- nowhere in any of the religions coincident with it. To the contrary, ALL of those religions prohibit it. So when it still happens, it happens in spite of --- not because of -- anybody's religion.

And we've done this a million times and I can prove it. Your link here is a complete load of crapola.

Get your head out of the sewers you get your bullshit info from. You'll smell better.

Link?

Post 4
Post 8
post 9
post 11
post 13
post 14

--- each one of which are bubbling with links.

The OP is retarded. He was already in some of these older threads, so he already knows this is an ignorant myth. Yet here he comes peddling the same shit, expecting different results.

Boggles the mind.

 

[Mudda]

American Keyboard Jihad is at it again.

 

[Pogo]

American Keyboard Jihad is at it again.

Good to know there will always be a defender of the ol' cut-n-paste process, that the tradition shall not die.

 

[American_Jihad]

American Keyboard Jihad is at it again.

Good to know there will always be a defender of the ol' cut-n-paste process, that the tradition shall not die.

Wake up and get to work poo, and while your at it see if you can pull mudda out yo ass...

 

[Pogo]

American Keyboard Jihad is at it again.

Good to know there will always be a defender of the ol' cut-n-paste process, that the tradition shall not die.

Wake up and get to work poo, and while your at it see if you can pull mudda out yo ass...

Jizz Hat, you're committed to the idea of mythmongering, division and spreading racist/classist hate with inane mythology that's easily debunked and shows you to be not only a liar but an idiot, which you seem not to mind, in the cause of (apparently) destroying the world, in whatever childish comic book page you live on.

That's your thing. Always has been.

My thing is I want to know what's really behind stuff, what the context is, what the root causes are, which is why I studied Anthropology and religions. And with that goes the guideline, "when the known facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

And that's my thing. Always has been.

All things considered I'm staying with my thing. You can wallow in the cesspool of yours. Good luck wid it. But you can depend on me to pull its pants down when you trot it out. Your only appeal -- if you have any --- is to the equivalently ignorant. And they've already buried their own heads in the sand before you started.

Which means everything you've ever posted here has accomplished --- nothing.

As I said ----- good luck wit dat.

 

[GreatestIam]

Pogo

This link is not for the squeamish but I wondered if you thought it to be an honor killing or is it something else?



Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

To all.

This is a well done piece by Muslim women who sure seem to believe that there is honor killings in their religion.



Regards
DL

 

[Pogo]

Pogo

This link is not for the squeamish but I wondered if you thought it to be an honor killing or is it something else?



Regards
DL

I'm not going to bother to watch it since that's not the topic. I've already demonstrated the sociological roots. Here and in other threads, for years.

You can stick your head in the sand and go all you like but those facts ain't going away.

 

[GreatestIam]

Pogo

This link is not for the squeamish but I wondered if you thought it to be an honor killing or is it something else?



Regards
DL

I'm not going to bother to watch it since that's not the topic. I've already demonstrated the sociological roots. Here and in other threads, for years.

You can stick your head in the sand and go all you like but those facts ain't going away.

I see you as the one with his head in the sand.

Honor killing was the topic and here you are running from an exact example of it.

Your bluster is B S to hide your running from facts.

Regards
DL

 

[Pogo]

To all.

This is a well done piece by Muslim women who sure seem to believe that there is honor killings in their religion.



Regards
DL

To all.

This is a well done piece by Muslim women who sure seem to believe that there is honor killings in their religion.



Regards
DL

And again I'm not about to piss away 32 minutes of my time watching a fucking YouTube video where anyone could say anything. I already have the facts on my side and I've already laid them out.

To wit, from post 9 here:

In many Arab countries, the practice of honour killing dates back to pre-Islamic times when Arab settlers occupied a region adjacent to Sindh, known as Baluchistan (in Pakistan).57 These Arab settlers had patriarchal traditions such as live burials of newly born daughters. Such traditions trace back to the earliest historic times of Ancient Babylon, where the predominant view was that a woman's virginity belonged to her family.58

There is no mention of honour killing in the Quran or Hadiths. Honour killing, in Islamic definitions, refers specifically to extra-legal punishment by the family against a woman, and is forbidden by the Sharia (Islamic law). Religious authorities disagree with extra punishments such as honour killing and prohibit it, so the practice of it is a cultural and not a religious issue. However, since Islam has influence over vast numbers of Muslims in many countries and from many cultures, some use Islam to justify honour killing even though there is no support for honour killing in Islam.​

See also posts 11 and 13, which reconfirm and re-reconfirm the same background.

You do understand linear time, do you not? Assuming so, it is impossible for Islam, invented in the 7th century CE, to also invent its own time machine so that it can travel temporally back to the Romans, and the Aztecs, and the Babylonians, and the Hindus, and the Sikhs, to give them the practice of "honor killing" so that they could have a precedent. Can't be done.

Again, the history is already known. There's nothing you can do about that except accept it. And with that comes the revelation that the OP here, and the myth he mongers, are completely full of khara.

You may however choose to outwardly remain ignorant, even after all these historical facts have been presented to you uncontested, as if you never saw them (hence the emoticon ).

But that's on you.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Pogo, on this you are wrong, so get over it.

The ME Muslims have adopted an ages-old practice and follow it.

We had to deal with this stupidity in East Texas and Salt Lake City from certain Muslim men who did not understand just how rigidly they would be held accountable for such behavior. Several learned a hard lesson.

 

[Pogo]

Pogo, on this you are wrong, so get over it.

The ME Muslims have adopted an ages-old practice and follow it.

We had to deal with this stupidity in East Texas and Salt Lake City from certain Muslim men who did not understand just how rigidly they would be held accountable for such behavior. Several learned a hard lesson.

NO, the cultures behind it already had the practice before anyone thought of Islam. Linear time proves that. Moreover in regions where the culture did not already have it --- say Morocco --- honor killing does not exist, yet Islam certainly does.

Moreover beyond that, the practice is rampant in India among Sikhs and Hindus. Somebody essplain to me how, if this practice is somehow "Islamic", Hindus and Sikhs are following it. Why would they do that? Hm?

The fact is 'honor killing' has no religious function, in any of them, because it's not a religious ritual, it's a social one. And all of the religions that may be coincident with it --- prohibit the practice.

Again, from earlier in the thread (post 13):

"It is better that one person dies than the whole family of shame and disgrace. It is like a box of apples. If you have one rotten apple would you keep it or get rid of it? I just got rid of it." When I challenged Sarhan by pointing out that his act contradicted the teachings of Islam and was punishable by God, he said, 'I know that killing my sister is against Islam and it angered God, but I had to do what I had to do and I will answer to God when the time comes." He added, "I know my sister was killed unjustly but what can I do? This is how society thinks. Nobody really wants to kill his own sister."​

So it doesn't happen because of Islam, or Hinduism, or Sikhism --- but in spite of them. In other words this is a practice (FGM is another) that is so old and so ingrained that religion cannot control it.

Again, posted earlier, same post, different speaker:

"Their abuse was not dictated by religion since my brothers were not really religious, nor did it come from love to "help me be a better person". However, I got off easy, because there were occasions where women would suddenly be missing. These women would vanish without a trace. It would be reported by a family in my village that 'my daughter has committed suicide'. It was obvious that they were killed by a family member, but no one would dare say anything.

Being Kurdish, the customs of our culture even before Islam's arrival are more cemented than even the religion itself in the name of deeply rooted rituals and beliefs. Besides, most people never really study the Quran and have a very limited, distorted view of their own religion. Thus, they act on cultural impulse as Sarhan so aptly described it."​

In the same way, Christians might of a given December festoon their residence with lights, tinsel, brightly colored balls, holly, misteltoe, even an until-recently-live evergreen tree in their living room. Then a few months later go on a Easter egg hunt and eat chocolate rabbits.

---- Are any of these practices prescribed in the Bible? Is there a passage that says "suffer the lights to come unto your house, and make 'em blink 'cause that would be like really cool?" Is there somewhere Jesus says "I am the Lord thy god, thou shalt not have strange gods before me, except that rabbit in the spring, he's one of my posse"?

Not at all. Again these are ancient cultural/social practices that existed long before Christianism, that the religion cannot control. Coincidence is not causation.