Latest theories

[ding]

Thank you. Can you tell me more about.... " The Spiritual Earth was created by God ... of the flesh, the Bible teaches it as "vainity and vexation of Spirit" ?"

1] The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
2] Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
3] What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?

-- Ecclesiastes 1

Here we're interpreting "vanity" as "of the flesh" or "concern over the flesh" ... think Vanity Smurf, the one who was always admiring himself in his mirror ... what profit did he enjoy in such labors? ... only being more attractive to that broke down whore they kept around ...

Further:

14] I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

-- ibid

I could go on cherry-picking lines, best you read the whole of the book yourself and perhaps see how this all fits into context ... from this we can see where the precept "If you interpret the Bible literally, you're wrong" comes from, not that I entirely agree ... but I do completely agree with the converse "If you don't interpret the Bible spiritually, you're wrong" ... every passage in every book has a moral lesson ... stories told around the campfire to teach folks a better way to live their lives based on millennia of human experiences ...

We'll never know when humans first realized that bother/sister babymaking was a bad idea ... long before we understood this on the DNA level ... but there it is prohibited 3,500 years ago ... and we do (correctly) interpret this in the flesh, but the deeper spiritual meaning is more significant and more important to understand ... babymaking by convenience, without the difficult task of building a proper marital relationship ... and thus we can extend this understanding to our co-workers, aunts and uncles, trees, sheep, the list goes on ... this convenience is easy and lazy satisfying only the flesh, and vexing the of the spirit ... turning our eyes from God ...

Much of the rest of the Bible is beyond my understanding ... I was a profound and active whoremonger when I came to Christ ... so this and some other passages rung true for me and showed me exactly how I had to change to follow Christ ... and to this day, chasing skirt is something I must be on my guard against ... speaking to a woman's face rather than her breasts ... and I'm absolutely a better man today by setting aside my lustful cravings and attending with a whole heart matters of God and the Holy Spirit ...

I can leave work everyday lamenting that this is where I met her ... but there it is ... a line I will not cross under any circumstances ...

ETA: "In the beginning, God created [spiritual] Earth and [spiritual] Heaven" ... two people looking at each other agreeing that living like animals isn't all that great of an idea ... thus the advent of "brotherhood" and the end of ceasless fighting over mates and resources that we see among the beasts of the field ... God is Love ...

"If you interpret the Bible literally, you're wrong" comes from, not that I entirely agree ... but I do completely agree with the converse "If you don't interpret the Bible spiritually, you're wrong" ... every passage in every book has a moral lesson ... stories told around the campfire to teach folks a better way to live their lives based on millennia of human experiences ...

I quite like what you said about interpreting the Bible spiritually and I wholeheartedly agree. I find it to be like peeling back layers of an onion. I agree that almost every passage has a moral lesson and that these accounts served a practical purpose for ancient man; to pass down a better way of being. Which is the reason the accounts were passed down in the first place; to inform future generations. It was ancient man's way of sharing knowledge, wisdom and history. Some people can't wrap their mind around the fact that the Bible is effectively a how to book. It's a book about how to live life and how not to live life. It's the how not to live life part that seems to confuse people. But it's because the Bible is brutally honest about the flaws of its hero's that give credibility to the words.

We'll never know when humans first realized that bother/sister babymaking was a bad idea ... long before we understood this on the DNA level ... but there it is prohibited 3,500 years ago ... and we do (correctly) interpret this in the flesh, but the deeper spiritual meaning is more significant and more important to understand ... babymaking by convenience, without the difficult task of building a proper marital relationship ... and thus we can extend this understanding to our co-workers, aunts and uncles, trees, sheep, the list goes on ... this convenience is easy and lazy satisfying only the flesh, and vexing the of the spirit ... turning our eyes from God ...

Morals are effectively standards. For any given thing there exists a standard which is the highest possible standard. This standard exists independent of anything else. It is in effect a universal standard. It exists for a logical reason. When we deviate from the standard and normalize our deviance from the standard, eventually the logical reason for why the standard exists will be discovered. So everything you are saying here is quite true. When we deviate from a standard, predictable surprises will eventually occur. Hence the importance of passing down lessons learned to future generations lest they think diddling co-workers, other people's spouses, children, aunts and uncles, trees, sheep, etc. are without consequences.

Much of the rest of the Bible is beyond my understanding ... I was a profound and active whoremonger when I came to Christ ... so this and some other passages rung true for me and showed me exactly how I had to change to follow Christ ... and to this day, chasing skirt is something I must be on my guard against ... speaking to a woman's face rather than her breasts ... and I'm absolutely a better man today by setting aside my lustful cravings and attending with a whole heart matters of God and the Holy Spirit ...

Only a good man knows just how bad he is. A bad man has no clue. I am no saint. Please don't ask me to confess my sins. We don't have enough time for that. But I would be more than happy to discuss the practical application of confession and forgiveness.

ETA: "In the beginning, God created [spiritual] Earth and [spiritual] Heaven" ... two people looking at each other agreeing that living like animals isn't all that great of an idea ... thus the advent of "brotherhood" and the end of ceasless fighting over mates and resources that we see among the beasts of the field ... God is Love ...

Amen

 

[ding]

1] The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
2] Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
3] What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?
-- Ecclesiastes 1

Here we're interpreting "vanity" as "of the flesh" or "concern over the flesh" ... think Vanity Smurf, the one who was always admiring himself in his mirror ... what profit did he enjoy in such labors? ... only being more attractive to that broke down whore they kept around ...

Ecclesiastes 1:14-18
14 I have seen all the works which have been done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and striving after wind. 15 What is crooked cannot be straightened and what is lacking cannot be counted. 16 I said to myself, “Behold, I have magnified and increased wisdom more than all who were over Jerusalem before me; and my mind has observed a wealth of wisdom and knowledge.” 17 And I set my mind to know wisdom and to know madness and folly; I realized that this also is striving after wind. 18 Because in much wisdom there is much grief, and increasing knowledge results in increasing pain.
===========================================================================

Benson Commentary
Ecclesiastes 1:14-15. I have seen all the works, &c. — Diligently observed, and, in a great measure, understood them; and behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit — Not only unsatisfying, but also an affliction or breaking to a man’s spirit. That which is crooked, &c. — All our knowledge serves only to discover our miseries, but is utterly insufficient to remove them; it cannot rectify those disorders which are either in our own hearts and lives, or in the men and things of the world. That which is wanting — In our knowledge, and in order to man’s complete satisfaction and happiness; cannot be numbered — Or, counted out to us from the treasures of human learning, but what is wanting will be so still; all our enjoyments here, when we have done our utmost to bring them to perfection, are still defective: and that which is wanting in our own knowledge is so much, that it cannot be numbered. The more we know, the more we see of our own ignorance.

============================================================================
ding's commentary
Different religions address the subject of suffering or evil in different manners. I am going to discuss two responses to suffering or evil; the Buddhist and the Christian. I am limiting it to these two responses because I believe these are the boundary conditions which serve as the envelope for the discussion. Meaning no comment is being made on the beliefs of other religions but my belief is that they would be contained within this envelope. I would also note that it is the phenomenon of suffering or evil which is the root cause of unbelief in many people.

Siddhārtha Gautama was a Hindu reformist. He believed that it had become fettered. Theology, ritual, authority, grace, mystery and tradition are components of religion. He believed they had become overbalanced. Where the form had replaced the meaning. He didn't reject them. He rejected the imbalance. He was a called the rebel child of Hinduism. He asked his followers, "did I ever teach you that God existed?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I ever teach you that God didn't exist?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I teach you the world is eternal?" They said, "no." He asked them, "did I teach you the world isn't eternal?" They said, "no." He then asked them, "what have I taught you?" They said, you have taught us suffering and the end of suffering."

He was a rationalist and a moralist. He taught that people should work out their own salvation with diligence. He was not against Hinduism. He was against the corruption which had entered into Hinduism and wanted to get back to what was important in Hinduism. He believed we crave and cling to impermanent states and things which are incapable of satisfying us. Which is very true. We are free to pursue pleasure, wealth, fame and power but none of those things will satisfy us because we were made for more.

Now the Christian response to suffering is a little different and I will use a quote from William James to illustrate it.

When all is said and done, we are in the end absolutely dependent on the universe; and into sacrifices and surrenders of some sort, deliberately looked at and accepted, we are drawn and pressed as into our only permanent positions of repose. Now in those states of mind which fall short of religion, the surrender is submitted to as an imposition of necessity, and the sacrifice is undergone at the very best without complaint. In the religious life, on the contrary, surrender and sacrifice are positively espoused: even unnecessary givings-up are added in order that the happiness may increase. Religion thus makes easy and felicitous what in any case is necessary; and if it be the only agency that can accomplish this result, its vital importance as a human faculty stands vindicated beyond dispute. It becomes an essential organ of our life, performing a function which no other portion of our nature can so successfully fulfill. ~William James

At first blush these two positions or responses seem to be diametrically opposite. The Hindu position on suffering is to end it. The Christian view on suffering is to embrace it. But really they are saying the same thing because the Hindu's solution to ending suffering is to deny desire or earthly pleasure. The Christian response is to celebrate the sacrifice. In both instances we are being asked to subordinate our desires for the glory of God. To worship the Creator rather than created things. In the end they aren't really sacrifices because the material things we cling to won't satisfy us because we were made for more. We were made for God.

It is probably worth adding the Jewish perspective on suffering or evil as I believe it provides the foundation for the logic to work through the dilemma of evil or suffering. And for that I will use Maimonides' commentary from "The Guide for the Perplexed."

It must be admitted as a fact that it cannot be said of God that He directly creates evil, or He has the direct intention to produce evil; this is impossible His works are all perfectly good. He only produces existence, and all existence is good. God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. Consequently the true work of God is all good, since it is existence. ALL the great evils which men cause to each other because of certain intentions, desires, opinions, or religious principles, are likewise due to non-existence, because they originate in ignorance, which is absence of wisdom. The numerous evils to which individual persons are exposed are due to the defects existing in the persons themselves. We suffer from the evils which we, by our own free will, inflict on ourselves and ascribe them to God, who is far from being connected with them. Man himself is the author of this class of evils. ~Maimonides

So to wrap this all up I will close with Catholic thought which informs us that in God's infinite wisdom He created a world in a state of journeying.

With infinite power God could always create something better. But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world "in a state of journeying" towards its ultimate perfection. In God's plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection. For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself. ~Catechism of Catholic Church

 

[james bond]

Nice to Fall back this morning .

I'm going to skip around what you wrote, so may not address everything.

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not really write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

It was God's words so he is the author, but I agree that it was Moses as the scribe for the Torah as what we call the Old Testament. He probably did record all of it except the part in Deuteronomy which describes his death (probably his follower Joshua wrote that). I'm not sure where you get the rest because it isn't correct. There is still today, much disagreement between some Jews who read and interpret the Torah that Jesus is not the Messiah. It means they have been misled.

What's troubling to me is that you treat God's words as allegory and the oral history of Jews. You seem to know how exactly Moses recorded the history when he was getting the oral history from God. How can anyone trust something that was handed down orally through different Jewish people? There could be great changes from one version to another over thousands of years from one generation to another.

Few would trust the accuracy of that including me.

Approximately 800 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 800 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

I'm not sure what you are referring to. Are you referring to Tower of Babel? But you state it was 800 years before Moses recorded it? The Chinese always used symbolic or pictorial language. It's weird that the Chinese had the same account of Genesis before Moses wrote it. Got a link?

Also, it's confusing if you do not treat Noah's Flood or Tower of Babel as part of history, but allegory. I'm not sure what is allegorical about both accounts.

We have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, we are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. We read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make ourselves feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom. Shame on us.

Again, I need a link. I think you believe the Bible and your Chinese account are around 6,000 years old, but do not mention the 13.8 B yr-old universe and 4.5 B yr-old Earth.

It sounds to me that you think the Bible is just oral history like China's history passed down through thousands of years so they both aren't accurate.

How can we trust either of those histories then?

Do angels have free will? How do you know angels have free will? I don't know that they do or they don't. You should make a thread about this explaining how you know they do. I would be very interested in reading the biblical references.

Again, this is what God said. Free will means one can choose to sin or not. It basically boils down to whether to obey or disobey God, i.e. that which is written in the Bible. Jesus probably had the greatest free will because he had so many temptations, but always chose to obey God the Father. Satan, who was the greatest angel and greatest fallen one loves to hide and tempt other angels and humans into disobeying God. This means the Bible (or the Torah, i.e. OT parts), are confused and it misleads even the believers.

Here are two verses which describe the two different angels:

Psalm 103:20 ESV / 143 helpful votes
Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, obeying the voice of his word!

Jude 1:6 ESV / 123 helpful votes
And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—

What Does the Bible Say About Angels?

Bible verses about Angels

www.openbible.info

More on the free will of angels

What Does the Bible Say About Free Will Of Angels?

Bible verses about Free Will Of Angels

www.openbible.info

I couldn't start a topic on angelic free will because they're spiritual beings different from humans. Our free will has led us in several different directions and beliefs part of which isn't good for the believers. Which parts are those? Those who diverge the most from God's word because they can't believe all of it.

Yes, we can remember the past but not the future. The GR field equations work perfectly well in reverse as they do in forward but no one has ever been able to reverse the direction of time. Even if the universe began to contract the arrow of time would not reverse. The question of time is not a new question. It's been discussed for a long time. Google "The problem with time." There is no physical phenomenon of time. It is just a way to mark the passage of physical events that do exist in the physical world.

I think time is just a recording device from your description of it instead of a fourth dimension which includes the third dimension as its subset. Its why time becomes spacetime in science.

 

[james bond]

The expansion of the universe happened because matter anti-matter annihilation (there were 1 billion antimatter particles for every 1 billion and 1 matter particles) released enormous amounts of energy as matter was converted into radiation per Einstein's E=mc^2 which propelled the remaining matter particles outward.

The expansion of the universe did not happen because of time. Time is just a way of marking physical events relative to other physical events.

Do you have a link?

What I am saying is that time and spacetime had to be present before the expansion. Also, before the expansion there had to exist an enormous amount of energy. You make it sound like the expansion was the cause when there had to be other factors in place before the big bang.

 

[james bond]

Yes, this is S&T ... what experiment can we perform in the lab to test Creationism? ... here's a pile of dirt, show me how we make Man ...

Experiments have demonstrated that the hook proteins are located at the base of the flagellum, where electron microscopy shows several ring structures occur to connect our brain to our bodily motor functions. This is too complex to occurred in steps, but would have to had occurred in one step.

Not even sure what this means ... define spacetime and these "three dimensions of space" ... and focus on the differences please ...

Time is the fourth dimension which means the three dimensions of space are a subset. That's how we get spacetime. If you just say time, then its just recording of time from a device such as a clock.

The Spirit ...

He created that first as angels or spiritual beings.

So God didn't create spacetime nor the universe nor anything material such as the human body?

How did the universe start and get all the energy that it would ever need?

How did one get sexual reproduction from a single cell?

 

[ding]

The expansion of the universe happened because matter anti-matter annihilation (there were 1 billion antimatter particles for every 1 billion and 1 matter particles) released enormous amounts of energy as matter was converted into radiation per Einstein's E=mc^2 which propelled the remaining matter particles outward.

The expansion of the universe did not happen because of time. Time is just a way of marking physical events relative to other physical events.

Do you have a link?

What I am saying is that time and spacetime had to be present before the expansion. Also, before the expansion there had to exist an enormous amount of energy. You make it sound like the expansion was the cause when there had to be other factors in place before the big bang.

It is a commonly held belief that the universe was created with nearly equal amounts of matter and anti-matter. The CMB is the radiation left over from all of the matter / antimatter annihilations.

The matter-antimatter asymmetry problem | CERN

home.cern

.

Why Is There More Matter Than Antimatter?

A new experiment at the world’s most powerful particle collider sheds light on an enduring cosmic mystery

www.scientificamerican.com

No, Physicists Still Donât Know Why Matter (And Not Antimatter) Dominates Our Universe

There is a fundamental difference between matter and antimatter. But not enough of one to explain our Universe.

medium.com

Space and time are created by the presence of matter and energy. Without matter and energy there is no gravity and no space and time. All that exists outside of matter and energy is a void or false vacuums probably filled with radiation.

 

[ding]

Nice to Fall back this morning .

I'm going to skip around what you wrote, so may not address everything.

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not really write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

It was God's words so he is the author, but I agree that it was Moses as the scribe for the Torah as what we call the Old Testament. He probably did record all of it except the part in Deuteronomy which describes his death (probably his follower Joshua wrote that). I'm not sure where you get the rest because it isn't correct. There is still today, much disagreement between some Jews who read and interpret the Torah that Jesus is not the Messiah. It means they have been misled.

What's troubling to me is that you treat God's words as allegory and the oral history of Jews. You seem to know how exactly Moses recorded the history when he was getting the oral history from God. How can anyone trust something that was handed down orally through different Jewish people? There could be great changes from one version to another over thousands of years from one generation to another.

Few would trust the accuracy of that including me.

Approximately 800 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 800 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

I'm not sure what you are referring to. Are you referring to Tower of Babel? But you state it was 800 years before Moses recorded it? The Chinese always used symbolic or pictorial language. It's weird that the Chinese had the same account of Genesis before Moses wrote it. Got a link?

Also, it's confusing if you do not treat Noah's Flood or Tower of Babel as part of history, but allegory. I'm not sure what is allegorical about both accounts.

We have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, we are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. We read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make ourselves feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom. Shame on us.

Again, I need a link. I think you believe the Bible and your Chinese account are around 6,000 years old, but do not mention the 13.8 B yr-old universe and 4.5 B yr-old Earth.

It sounds to me that you think the Bible is just oral history like China's history passed down through thousands of years so they both aren't accurate.

How can we trust either of those histories then?

Do angels have free will? How do you know angels have free will? I don't know that they do or they don't. You should make a thread about this explaining how you know they do. I would be very interested in reading the biblical references.

Again, this is what God said. Free will means one can choose to sin or not. It basically boils down to whether to obey or disobey God, i.e. that which is written in the Bible. Jesus probably had the greatest free will because he had so many temptations, but always chose to obey God the Father. Satan, who was the greatest angel and greatest fallen one loves to hide and tempt other angels and humans into disobeying God. This means the Bible (or the Torah, i.e. OT parts), are confused and it misleads even the believers.

Here are two verses which describe the two different angels:

Psalm 103:20 ESV / 143 helpful votes
Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, obeying the voice of his word!

Jude 1:6 ESV / 123 helpful votes
And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—

What Does the Bible Say About Angels?

Bible verses about Angels

www.openbible.info

More on the free will of angels

What Does the Bible Say About Free Will Of Angels?

Bible verses about Free Will Of Angels

www.openbible.info

I couldn't start a topic on angelic free will because they're spiritual beings different from humans. Our free will has led us in several different directions and beliefs part of which isn't good for the believers. Which parts are those? Those who diverge the most from God's word because they can't believe all of it.

Yes, we can remember the past but not the future. The GR field equations work perfectly well in reverse as they do in forward but no one has ever been able to reverse the direction of time. Even if the universe began to contract the arrow of time would not reverse. The question of time is not a new question. It's been discussed for a long time. Google "The problem with time." There is no physical phenomenon of time. It is just a way to mark the passage of physical events that do exist in the physical world.

I think time is just a recording device from your description of it instead of a fourth dimension which includes the third dimension as its subset. Its why time becomes spacetime in science.

I'm not going to argue with you. I thought I made that clear before. Twice. Believe whatever you want to believe.

 

[james bond]

It is a commonly held belief that the universe was created with nearly equal amounts of matter and anti-matter. The CMB is the radiation left over from all of the matter / antimatter annihilations.

One of the problems of this is the cause part of cause and effect. What created the matter and anti-matter? What created the spacetime the matter and anti-matter needed to function.

I'll read the links when I get a chance.

 

[james bond]

Nice to Fall back this morning .

I'm going to skip around what you wrote, so may not address everything.

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not really write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

It was God's words so he is the author, but I agree that it was Moses as the scribe for the Torah as what we call the Old Testament. He probably did record all of it except the part in Deuteronomy which describes his death (probably his follower Joshua wrote that). I'm not sure where you get the rest because it isn't correct. There is still today, much disagreement between some Jews who read and interpret the Torah that Jesus is not the Messiah. It means they have been misled.

What's troubling to me is that you treat God's words as allegory and the oral history of Jews. You seem to know how exactly Moses recorded the history when he was getting the oral history from God. How can anyone trust something that was handed down orally through different Jewish people? There could be great changes from one version to another over thousands of years from one generation to another.

Few would trust the accuracy of that including me.

Approximately 800 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 800 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

I'm not sure what you are referring to. Are you referring to Tower of Babel? But you state it was 800 years before Moses recorded it? The Chinese always used symbolic or pictorial language. It's weird that the Chinese had the same account of Genesis before Moses wrote it. Got a link?

Also, it's confusing if you do not treat Noah's Flood or Tower of Babel as part of history, but allegory. I'm not sure what is allegorical about both accounts.

We have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, we are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. We read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make ourselves feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom. Shame on us.

Again, I need a link. I think you believe the Bible and your Chinese account are around 6,000 years old, but do not mention the 13.8 B yr-old universe and 4.5 B yr-old Earth.

It sounds to me that you think the Bible is just oral history like China's history passed down through thousands of years so they both aren't accurate.

How can we trust either of those histories then?

Do angels have free will? How do you know angels have free will? I don't know that they do or they don't. You should make a thread about this explaining how you know they do. I would be very interested in reading the biblical references.

Again, this is what God said. Free will means one can choose to sin or not. It basically boils down to whether to obey or disobey God, i.e. that which is written in the Bible. Jesus probably had the greatest free will because he had so many temptations, but always chose to obey God the Father. Satan, who was the greatest angel and greatest fallen one loves to hide and tempt other angels and humans into disobeying God. This means the Bible (or the Torah, i.e. OT parts), are confused and it misleads even the believers.

Here are two verses which describe the two different angels:

Psalm 103:20 ESV / 143 helpful votes
Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, obeying the voice of his word!

Jude 1:6 ESV / 123 helpful votes
And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—

What Does the Bible Say About Angels?

Bible verses about Angels

www.openbible.info

More on the free will of angels

What Does the Bible Say About Free Will Of Angels?

Bible verses about Free Will Of Angels

www.openbible.info

I couldn't start a topic on angelic free will because they're spiritual beings different from humans. Our free will has led us in several different directions and beliefs part of which isn't good for the believers. Which parts are those? Those who diverge the most from God's word because they can't believe all of it.

Yes, we can remember the past but not the future. The GR field equations work perfectly well in reverse as they do in forward but no one has ever been able to reverse the direction of time. Even if the universe began to contract the arrow of time would not reverse. The question of time is not a new question. It's been discussed for a long time. Google "The problem with time." There is no physical phenomenon of time. It is just a way to mark the passage of physical events that do exist in the physical world.

I think time is just a recording device from your description of it instead of a fourth dimension which includes the third dimension as its subset. Its why time becomes spacetime in science.

I'm not going to argue with you. I thought I made that clear before. Twice. Believe whatever you want to believe.

Haha. I'm not arguing with you, but correcting your false beliefs.

What was more important was you providing links to some of your Chinese beliefs.

Moreover, you can't answer my questions while I tried my dangest to answer yours.

You will be misled. That I believe.

 

[ding]

It is a commonly held belief that the universe was created with nearly equal amounts of matter and anti-matter. The CMB is the radiation left over from all of the matter / antimatter annihilations.

One of the problems of this is the cause part of cause and effect. What created the matter and anti-matter? What created the spacetime the matter and anti-matter needed to function.

I'll read the links when I get a chance.

No problem at all. God created it. The only "thing" that can exist eternally without changing is "no thing." Spirit is no thing. Spirit is beyond energy and matter. As such there is no limitation. God is beyond energy and matter. God is spirit.

 

[ding]

Nice to Fall back this morning .

I'm going to skip around what you wrote, so may not address everything.

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not really write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

It was God's words so he is the author, but I agree that it was Moses as the scribe for the Torah as what we call the Old Testament. He probably did record all of it except the part in Deuteronomy which describes his death (probably his follower Joshua wrote that). I'm not sure where you get the rest because it isn't correct. There is still today, much disagreement between some Jews who read and interpret the Torah that Jesus is not the Messiah. It means they have been misled.

What's troubling to me is that you treat God's words as allegory and the oral history of Jews. You seem to know how exactly Moses recorded the history when he was getting the oral history from God. How can anyone trust something that was handed down orally through different Jewish people? There could be great changes from one version to another over thousands of years from one generation to another.

Few would trust the accuracy of that including me.

Approximately 800 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 800 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

I'm not sure what you are referring to. Are you referring to Tower of Babel? But you state it was 800 years before Moses recorded it? The Chinese always used symbolic or pictorial language. It's weird that the Chinese had the same account of Genesis before Moses wrote it. Got a link?

Also, it's confusing if you do not treat Noah's Flood or Tower of Babel as part of history, but allegory. I'm not sure what is allegorical about both accounts.

We have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, we are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. We read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make ourselves feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom. Shame on us.

Again, I need a link. I think you believe the Bible and your Chinese account are around 6,000 years old, but do not mention the 13.8 B yr-old universe and 4.5 B yr-old Earth.

It sounds to me that you think the Bible is just oral history like China's history passed down through thousands of years so they both aren't accurate.

How can we trust either of those histories then?

Do angels have free will? How do you know angels have free will? I don't know that they do or they don't. You should make a thread about this explaining how you know they do. I would be very interested in reading the biblical references.

Again, this is what God said. Free will means one can choose to sin or not. It basically boils down to whether to obey or disobey God, i.e. that which is written in the Bible. Jesus probably had the greatest free will because he had so many temptations, but always chose to obey God the Father. Satan, who was the greatest angel and greatest fallen one loves to hide and tempt other angels and humans into disobeying God. This means the Bible (or the Torah, i.e. OT parts), are confused and it misleads even the believers.

Here are two verses which describe the two different angels:

Psalm 103:20 ESV / 143 helpful votes
Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, obeying the voice of his word!

Jude 1:6 ESV / 123 helpful votes
And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—

What Does the Bible Say About Angels?

Bible verses about Angels

www.openbible.info

More on the free will of angels

What Does the Bible Say About Free Will Of Angels?

Bible verses about Free Will Of Angels

www.openbible.info

I couldn't start a topic on angelic free will because they're spiritual beings different from humans. Our free will has led us in several different directions and beliefs part of which isn't good for the believers. Which parts are those? Those who diverge the most from God's word because they can't believe all of it.

Yes, we can remember the past but not the future. The GR field equations work perfectly well in reverse as they do in forward but no one has ever been able to reverse the direction of time. Even if the universe began to contract the arrow of time would not reverse. The question of time is not a new question. It's been discussed for a long time. Google "The problem with time." There is no physical phenomenon of time. It is just a way to mark the passage of physical events that do exist in the physical world.

I think time is just a recording device from your description of it instead of a fourth dimension which includes the third dimension as its subset. Its why time becomes spacetime in science.

I'm not going to argue with you. I thought I made that clear before. Twice. Believe whatever you want to believe.

Haha. I'm not arguing with you, but correcting your false beliefs.

What was more important was you providing links to some of your Chinese beliefs.

Moreover, you can't answer my questions while I tried my dangest to answer yours.

You will be misled. That I believe.

It certainly feels that way to me. You aren't curious about my beliefs. You are wanting to argue about my beliefs because you are insecure with your own beliefs. If you were curious about my beliefs you would take the 5 minutes to search for yourself.

It's out there. I didn't make it up out of thin air. A Chinese Christian colleague presented it to my men's group at work about ten years ago. I did my own independent research before accepting it as true.

 

[ding]

Free will means one can choose to sin or not.

I believe free will means we can choose to worship the Creator or the created. Of course that opens the door for what worship really means.

 

[ding]

Haha. I'm not arguing with you, but correcting your false beliefs.

That's arguing, JB

 

[ding]

What was more important was you providing links to some of your Chinese beliefs.

What is most important is giving you the choice in what to believe, JB. Or do I need to post that explanation again?

Chinese beliefs? You are cracking me up.

 

[ding]

Moreover, you can't answer my questions while I tried my dangest to answer yours.

You will be misled. That I believe.

If that is how you need to see it, I am fine with that.

 

[ReinyDays]

Please don't ask me to confess my sins.

"If I told you all that went down, it would burn off both of your ears" --- Jerry Garcia

=====

Thus my justification for exploring the sciences ... keeping all this in the perspective of vexation of spirit, and how it may be used to do loving things ... studying the vanity of thunderstorms allows us to tell communities it was a tornado that ripped them apart and killed all their people AND it allows us to tell communities it will be a tornado that rips their homes apart and your people are safe in their basements ... one is loving, the other scientific ... our choice ...

Siddhārtha Gautama ...

Interesting ...

He was big on the "here and now" and I'm pretty sure Christ was too ... the past and future are just illusions, the only reality is the present ... time is helpful measuring the illusions, but it does not exist in reality ... time itself is just an illusion ... if I remember correctly, Hindus do not have a creation story as the Abrahamic religions do ... time has always been and will always be ... there is no beginning, there is no end, the universe is a wheel, "bound to cover a little more ground" (Jerry Garcia) ...

Works for me ... Creationism vs. UFT is about as meaningless to me as ... well ... maybe nothing ... I'm something of a hobbiest when it comes to attaching great meaning to trivial occurrences ... (there is no blast crater under the LEM, think about it) ... why folks would argue minutia to such impossible depths is beyond me ... I don't apologize for believing we evolved from apes ... because ... duh ... we act like apes ... at least our men-folk do, plainly obvious ... and I'm not just shamelessly pandering for the women's vote (but hey, if you see Reiny on your ballot, give me a check) ...

I digress ...

Phaw, I already know your sins, I've committed all of them myself ... the measures of our sins are different ... but sin is sin ... (except maybe this whole "boiling off the oceans" thing you got going, as bad as my son, the NDT tech working the oil refineries along the Gulf Coast and delights to no end rubbing it in my face) ...

 

[ding]

Nice to Fall back this morning .

Yes, but it means less daylight in the afternoon to play golf.

 

[ding]

Please don't ask me to confess my sins.

"If I told you all that went down, it would burn off both of your ears" --- Jerry Garcia

=====

Thus my justification for exploring the sciences ... keeping all this in the perspective of vexation of spirit, and how it may be used to do loving things ... studying the vanity of thunderstorms allows us to tell communities it was a tornado that ripped them apart and killed all their people AND it allows us to tell communities it will be a tornado that rips their homes apart and your people are safe in their basements ... one is loving, the other scientific ... our choice ...

Siddhārtha Gautama ...

Interesting ...

He was big on the "here and now" and I'm pretty sure Christ was too ... the past and future are just illusions, the only reality is the present ... time is helpful measuring the illusions, but it does not exist in reality ... time itself is just an illusion ... if I remember correctly, Hindus do not have a creation story as the Abrahamic religions do ... time has always been and will always be ... there is no beginning, there is no end, the universe is a wheel, "bound to cover a little more ground" (Jerry Garcia) ...

Works for me ... Creationism vs. UFT is about as meaningless to me as ... well ... maybe nothing ... I'm something of a hobbiest when it comes to attaching great meaning to trivial occurrences ... (there is no blast crater under the LEM, think about it) ... why folks would argue minutia to such impossible depths is beyond me ... I don't apologize for believing we evolved from apes ... because ... duh ... we act like apes ... at least our men-folk do, plainly obvious ... and I'm not just shamelessly pandering for the women's vote (but hey, if you see Reiny on your ballot, give me a check) ...

I digress ...

Phaw, I already know your sins, I've committed all of them myself ... the measures of our sins are different ... but sin is sin ... (except maybe this whole "boiling off the oceans" thing you got going, as bad as my son, the NDT tech working the oil refineries along the Gulf Coast and delights to no end rubbing it in my face) ...

I have a 156 tee time so gotta jet but I will be responding to this later after I play 9. I loved it btw though. Peace.

 

[itfitzme]

Nice to Fall back this morning .

I'm going to skip around what you wrote, so may not address everything.

The first five books of the Bible (known as the Torah) were written by Moses - an adopted son of the king of Egypt - in approximately 1400 B.C.. These five books focus on the beginning of the nation of Israel; but the first 11 chapters of the Torah records the history that all nations have in common. These allegorical accounts of the history of the world had been passed down from generation to generation orally for thousands of years. Moses did not really write the first 11 chapters of the Bible. Moses was the first Hebrew to record them.

It was God's words so he is the author, but I agree that it was Moses as the scribe for the Torah as what we call the Old Testament. He probably did record all of it except the part in Deuteronomy which describes his death (probably his follower Joshua wrote that). I'm not sure where you get the rest because it isn't correct. There is still today, much disagreement between some Jews who read and interpret the Torah that Jesus is not the Messiah. It means they have been misled.

What's troubling to me is that you treat God's words as allegory and the oral history of Jews. You seem to know how exactly Moses recorded the history when he was getting the oral history from God. How can anyone trust something that was handed down orally through different Jewish people? There could be great changes from one version to another over thousands of years from one generation to another.

Few would trust the accuracy of that including me.

Approximately 800 years before Moses recorded the allegorical accounts of the history of the world. The Chinese recorded this history as symbols in the Chinese language. They drew pictures to express words or ideas. Simple pictures were combined to make more complex thoughts. They used well known history and common everyday things to make a word so people could easily remember it. The account of Genesis found it's way into the Chinese written language because the Chinese had migrated from the cradle of civilization. Prior to this migration they all shared a common history and religion.

The Bible even explains how it was possible for the Chinese to record the account of Genesis 800 years before Moses recorded it. The account of the Tower of Babel was the allegorical account of the great migration from Mesopotamia. This also explains why all ancient cultures have an account of a great flood. Because they all shared a common history and religion before the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

I'm not sure what you are referring to. Are you referring to Tower of Babel? But you state it was 800 years before Moses recorded it? The Chinese always used symbolic or pictorial language. It's weird that the Chinese had the same account of Genesis before Moses wrote it. Got a link?

Also, it's confusing if you do not treat Noah's Flood or Tower of Babel as part of history, but allegory. I'm not sure what is allegorical about both accounts.

We have to keep in mind that these accounts are 6,000 years old and were passed down orally from one generation to the next for thousands of years. Surely ancient man believed these accounts were of the utmost importance otherwise they would not have been passed down for thousands of years before they were recorded in writing. We shouldn't view these accounts using the context of the modern world. Unfortunately, we are so far removed from these events that we have lost all original meaning. If you were to ask almost any Jew what the Tower of Babel was about he would have no clue that it was the allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. That is not intended to be a criticism. It is intended to be an illustration of just how difficult a task it is to discover the original meaning from ancient accounts from 6,000 years ago. We read these texts like they were written yesterday looking for ways to discredit them and make ourselves feel superior rather than seeking the original meaning and wisdom. Shame on us.

Again, I need a link. I think you believe the Bible and your Chinese account are around 6,000 years old, but do not mention the 13.8 B yr-old universe and 4.5 B yr-old Earth.

It sounds to me that you think the Bible is just oral history like China's history passed down through thousands of years so they both aren't accurate.

How can we trust either of those histories then?

Do angels have free will? How do you know angels have free will? I don't know that they do or they don't. You should make a thread about this explaining how you know they do. I would be very interested in reading the biblical references.

Again, this is what God said. Free will means one can choose to sin or not. It basically boils down to whether to obey or disobey God, i.e. that which is written in the Bible. Jesus probably had the greatest free will because he had so many temptations, but always chose to obey God the Father. Satan, who was the greatest angel and greatest fallen one loves to hide and tempt other angels and humans into disobeying God. This means the Bible (or the Torah, i.e. OT parts), are confused and it misleads even the believers.

Here are two verses which describe the two different angels:

Psalm 103:20 ESV / 143 helpful votes
Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, obeying the voice of his word!

Jude 1:6 ESV / 123 helpful votes
And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—

What Does the Bible Say About Angels?

Bible verses about Angels

www.openbible.info

More on the free will of angels

What Does the Bible Say About Free Will Of Angels?

Bible verses about Free Will Of Angels

www.openbible.info

I couldn't start a topic on angelic free will because they're spiritual beings different from humans. Our free will has led us in several different directions and beliefs part of which isn't good for the believers. Which parts are those? Those who diverge the most from God's word because they can't believe all of it.

Yes, we can remember the past but not the future. The GR field equations work perfectly well in reverse as they do in forward but no one has ever been able to reverse the direction of time. Even if the universe began to contract the arrow of time would not reverse. The question of time is not a new question. It's been discussed for a long time. Google "The problem with time." There is no physical phenomenon of time. It is just a way to mark the passage of physical events that do exist in the physical world.

I think time is just a recording device from your description of it instead of a fourth dimension which includes the third dimension as its subset. Its why time becomes spacetime in science.

I'm not going to argue with you. I thought I made that clear before. Twice. Believe whatever you want to believe.

You may believe whatever you want to believe but knowledge stands on it's own.

 

[james bond]

No problem at all. God created it. The only "thing" that can exist eternally without changing is "no thing." Spirit is no thing. Spirit is beyond energy and matter. As such there is no limitation. God is beyond energy and matter. God is spirit.

God and the angels may be spirit, but not Jesus. He was human. He was spirit and flesh. Do you not believe Jesus is God?

It certainly feels that way to me. You aren't curious about my beliefs. You are wanting to argue about my beliefs because you are insecure with your own beliefs. If you were curious about my beliefs you would take the 5 minutes to search for yourself.

I don't why you brought Chinese oral history which came after to explain Jewish history and the Torah. Doesn't it mean that there is no connection like you ascrbing what happened with the Chinese history to Moses and God? At least I don't see the connection. One has a tradition or oral and symbolic writing while the other was written as a scribe to God in Moses. BTW, those not Jewish are Gentiles and come under Paul's teachings.

What is most important is giving you the choice in what to believe, JB. Or do I need to post that explanation again?

It's not about choices of what to believe as I stated. It's about whether to follow Jesus and obey God (which he always did) or disobey God. That's Christianity in a nutshell for us believers.

I believe free will means we can choose to worship the Creator or the created. Of course that opens the door for what worship really means.

You just proved my point. We either obey or disobey God. Jesus guides us in order to get to the Father and heaven again. We are saved from Adam's sin and death for eternity.

It's not about worshiping the Creator or the created. We do not want to worship those he created in order to be saved. We can pay homages to God for creating us, but we also have to believe in Jesus as our Savior. One is offering thanks for our blessings while the other affects us in our thoughts and in deed. We take action from it.