Looks like they might have got Sinwar......Graphic

[Sherlock Holmes]

He wants to pretend that his anti Semitism isn’t noticed when he claims it is only anti Zionism.

Why is it that I know more than you about Zionism, Israeli history, antisemitism, the UN, the history of Zionism, British colonialism, Middle East Arab history - than you do, yet you keep attacking me?

Try shutting your deafening and cavernous oral cavity and learn from me.

 

[Shusha]

So how would you discuss an ideology? is there such a thing as an evil ideology?

Primarily I challenge claims that I see in this forum that I regard as untrue or immoral, that's really what I do here.

So, you don't want to discuss conduct, you want to discuss ideology. And further you want to apply that ideology to a collective group of people. And further you believe you can do that accurately.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

So, you don't want to discuss conduct, you want to discuss ideology. And further you want to apply that ideology to a collective group of people. And further you believe you can do that accurately.

Where did I say that I "don't want to discuss conduct"? I asked you a question but you don't seem to want to answer it.

There are behaviors that are inherent within ideologies, characteristics of ideologies, things most adherents of an ideology accept, and do not fight against.

One can discuss aggregates when that level of abstraction helps. We could discuss the history of the Nazi party in Germany purely by only discussing individuals and their actions and make no reference to shared ideas and shared beliefs. But if you want to do that then you're basically saying that ideas and beliefs don't exist, can't be discussed.

Abstractions are part of human reasoning, we create and speak at an abstract level all the time in the sciences and the arts and in politics.

If told Himmler and Heydrich were both senior Nazis, would that convey anything? would knowing the beliefs of Himmler but not Heydrich allow us to draw any reasonable inferences about the beliefs Heydrich?

 

[Shusha]

Where did I say that I "don't want to discuss conduct"? I asked you a question but you don't seem to want to answer it.

This question?

is there such a thing as an evil ideology?

Yes. I believe there is such a thing as an evil ideology.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

This question?

Yes. I believe there is such a thing as an evil ideology.

Is this an example of an evil ideology?

 

[Shusha]

Is this an example of an evil ideology?

View attachment 1028520

What do you think the ideology is and who holds it?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

What do you think the ideology is and who holds it?

Do you need that information in order to answer my question?

 

[Shusha]

Do you need that information in order to answer my question?

I do. Because I believe you and I will take the (mis)information presented in your post and claim that it represents different ideologies. I need to know which one you are working with.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I do. Because I believe you and I will take the (mis)information presented in your post and claim that it represents different ideologies.

Why does the name of the ideology matter? if you saw a group of men beating Jews in the street in Germany in 1937 would you need to know whether the men were or were not Nazis in order to decide if you were witnessing evil?

If you have to think about this, then yes, you and I do indeed very much differ.

 

[Shusha]

Why does the name of the ideology matter? if you saw a man beating Jews in the street in Germany in 1937 would you need to know whether the men were or were not Nazis in order to decide if you were witnessing evil?

I don't need a name. I just what ideology you think is operating in the example you gave and who holds that ideology.

Example: Jews believe all Arabs in Gaza must be killed because Arabs are inherently and irredeemably evil.
Example: The current government of Israel believes that Israel is under existential threat from multiple terrorist organizations and is justly defending its sovereign territory and citizens within the confines of international law.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I don't need a name. I just what ideology you think is operating in the example you gave and who holds that ideology.

Example: Jews believe all Arabs in Gaza must be killed because Arabs are inherently and irredeemably evil.
Example: The current government of Israel believes that Israel is under existential threat from multiple terrorist organizations and is justly defending its sovereign territory and citizens within the confines of international law.

Well that means then that the killing taking place in Gaza would be deemed as evil by you IF the government of Israel were misleading people or were simply wrong, about the veracity of there being and existential threat to the people of Israel as the justification for what's taking place as I write, in Northern Gaza?

Do you agree?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

People care, many people care, I care. To be expected to care about Jews being exterminated by Germans yet not care when Jews appear to be exterminating Palestinians is not something an honest decent principled human being can do, some people can do it, I'm not one of them.

I privately studied the history of the Third Reich in my late teens, I spent a lot of hours reading and learning about that. Part of that education was to learn how an entire people lent their support to the German authorities, what they were told in order for them to become not only accepting but supportive of their governments actions.

Once you've studied that and come to understand the hold that governments have over people and how they carefully manage that in order to maintain that control then it's not very hard to recognize that when you see it happening.

I see it with many here (not you) but many Americans. They have a firm unearned trust in the words of the Israeli government, they believe what the Israelis say and once they have adopted that belief they then believe ANYTHING the Israelis say.

You have no excuse here, you surely understand what many Israelis are saying and that is Netanyahu WANTS THE WAR for reasons that are nothing to do with the reasons he claims to want the war - this is all over the news in Israel and has been for months.

Therefore it's pretty clear lies are being told...

 

[Shusha]

People care, many people care, I care. To be expected to care about Jews being exterminated by Germans yet not care when Jews appear to be exterminating Palestinians is not something an honest decent principled human being can do, some people can do it, I'm not one of them.

See, I think we (you and I) have a fundamental disagreement about facts, and not necessarily about a moral ideology. Obviously, we agree that extermination of a peoples is an evil ideology. Where we disagree is whether or not an extermination is occurring.