My thoughts on the pledge of allegiance

[strollingbones]

people buying flags made in china are more dangerous to this country than the people burning the chinese made flags....

 

[Douger]

Flag worship.
Right up there with Islam and Catholicism.

 

[xotoxi]

people buying flags made in china are more dangerous to this country than the people burning the chinese made flags....

Actually burning the Chinese flags is incredibly dangerous...you might inhale burning lead paint fumes.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I know this is going to be misunderstood as being anti-American and I really don't blame people for thinking that considering all the liberal flag burners in this country but I really don't agree with the pledge of allegiance as a concept. I think that its really a disguised loyalty oath that makes us swear a pledge to the government or why would they put "to the republic for which it stands". Why can't it be something like I pledge allegiance to the flag (symbol of our country) and to freedom and justice for all where we will be pledging to our nation and our fellow citizens and not to our government.

None of us makes pledges to the state or city governments. There is not even a pledge for our own states but the federal government has its own pledge. What if I really don't want to pledge allegiance to our country? Don't have the right to do that and still be here?

I expect to get a lot of flack from conservatives and I also think a lot of liberals will be cheering because there is a fellow USA hater but that is not the case. I actually like being an American who lives in a free society but I'm questioning the purpose of the pledge of allegiance.

How about getting some flack from the English majors who are appalled at your lack of basic language mastery?

1) The Pledge of Allegiance is not a "disguised loyalty oath". There's nothing "disguised" about it. The very words, "Pledge of Allegiance" MEAN "Oath of Loyalty". So what? You have a problem with swearing loyalty to things?

2) The phrase ". . . and to the republic for which it stands" does not refer to the government. Please contemplate the words ". . . for which it stands". The "it" would be the flag. Does the flag stand for the government? Or does it stand for the nation as a whole? Hello? Am I ringing any bells here?

3) The purpose of the Pledge of Allegiance is a tough one. That purpose is . . .wait for it . . . for you to PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG AND THE NATION IT STANDS FOR. Duh. And since this is a free country, if you don't wish to swear your loyalty to it, feel free not to.

No I actually think swearing loyalty to something is quite healthy such as joining the military. In that situation a loyalty oath is quite appropriate as people will be called to defend their country but people living in a state of freedom shouldn't really be required to pledge their loyalty to anything unless loyalty is needed.

Who the hell is REQUIRING you to take it? See the last sentence of my post, or show me the place in the US where a gun is being held to your head to make you say the Pledge of Allegiance.

 

[Cecilie1200]

TC is ignorant. It has nothing to do with the government, it is allegiance to the flag and the republic, the republic representing the PEOPLE. Idiot.

I would much rather swear an allegiance to my own self and the right to pursue my own interest and the purpose of any government in a free society is to protect those interest.

I'm sure you would, because you're striking me in this thread as rather selfish and immature. However, OTHER people - known as "grownups" - recognize that there are bigger things than themselves, more important goals than just their own gratification, and higher principles than self-absorbed navel-gazing. Therefore, we are willing to swear loyalty to something that embodies those ideals.

 

[Yukon]

The GERMANS swore allegiance to Adolph Hitler daily. Mein Kamph was mandatory reading as is the Bill of Rights.

 

[Cecilie1200]

the thing that some don't understand is the fact you can burn are flag in protest and it is protected by our constitution is what is so great about this country. It is alright for the teabaggers to protest our government but god forbid a bleeding heart liberal protest anything, since they hate america and all.

There is no reason to burn the flag of your own country unless you hate it or not have any sense of identification with it. And yes people have the power to burn the American flag but other people have the right to be upset about it because expressing your general displeasure with flag-burning is also protected speech under the same first amendment that protects flag burners.

but it is alright to protest at the capitol building which has about the same sort of symbolism as the flag does.

Yes, because there's no difference at all between standing in front of a symbol to protest and destroying the symbol to protest . . . oh, wait.

Call me when conservatives advocate burning down the Capitol building, dumbass.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The problem I have with the pledge of allegiance is the fact that the vast majority of the time, it is spoken by people who have absolutely no idea what it means and say it as mindless drones.

The people to whom I am referring are the millions of school children across the country who each morning, while sitting at their desks at 8am wanting to go back to sleep, are told to stand up, place their hand on their heart, and say it in unison like zombies. Most of them either don't know what it means, or don't care.

Give me another example of an oath or a pledge that you would say that you did not understand what it meant or did not care what it meant?

When I was a schoolchild, I understood what the pledge meant, because my teacher taught us what it meant. And I cared very much about that meaning. Seems the fault here is, as usual, in the schools and teachers.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Thank you for telling us stuff we already knew. How very helpful, and how very typical of a leftie. Just because you have only just learned the history of the pledge does not mean the rest of us are that stupid.

Not knowing the history of the pledge would be ignorance. Being unable to tell the difference between ignorance and stupidity would be more worthy of being labeled stupid.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself there CG, no offense!

Yeah, but remaining ignorant of it for that long would be stupid.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Flag worship.
Right up there with Islam and Catholicism.

I know you intended this to sound scary, but that only works for self-absorbed me-monkeys who think the idea of devotion to something larger and better than themselves is a bad thing. In the future, PLEASE don't assume that you are representative of anyone but yourself.

 

[midcan5]

Thank you for telling us stuff we already knew. How very helpful, and how very typical of a leftie. Just because you have only just learned the history of the pledge does not mean the rest of us are that stupid.

Sorry, but what is it you know? and who is 'we,' do you have a mouse in your pocket? Please explain. Thanks.

Not knowing the history of the pledge would be ignorance. Being unable to tell the difference between ignorance and stupidity would be more worthy of being labeled stupid.

Jeez, that sure is profound, any more gems?

 

[namvet]

I know this is going to be misunderstood as being anti-American and I really don't blame people for thinking that considering all the liberal flag burners in this country but I really don't agree with the pledge of allegiance as a concept. I think that its really a disguised loyalty oath that makes us swear a pledge to the government or why would they put "to the republic for which it stands". Why can't it be something like I pledge allegiance to the flag (symbol of our country) and to freedom and justice for all where we will be pledging to our nation and our fellow citizens and not to our government.

None of us makes pledges to the state or city governments. There is not even a pledge for our own states but the federal government has its own pledge. What if I really don't want to pledge allegiance to our country? Don't have the right to do that and still be here?

I expect to get a lot of flack from conservatives and I also think a lot of liberals will be cheering because there is a fellow USA hater but that is not the case. I actually like being an American who lives in a free society but I'm questioning the purpose of the pledge of allegiance.

but I'm questioning the purpose of the pledge of allegiance.

you have a lot of company. the democrats never heard of it

[youtube]FK_DB36ivy0[/youtube]

 

[ihopehefails]

Devil's advocate mode on: Interesting that this constitutes an item for discussion from a new member. I like the 1892 variant as it represents an (pure?) ideal, but even here one could nitpick. Consider 'one nation indivisible,' nations became religion after religion lost its political power and consider too the wars of hubris nations have started. Or the faults of nationalism. And then we added 'under God,' which god is that as there seem to be so many. Would man kill man in such large numbers without nation and religion?

1892
“I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all.”
1892 to 1923
"I pledge allegiance to my flag and to the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all."
1923 to 1924
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States and to the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all."
1924 to 1954
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands; one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all."
1954 to Present
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands: one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

"Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. 'Patriotism' is its cult." Eric Fromm

DA off.

I'm really getting tired of this assault on patriotism by the left by associating it with all forms of evil because I can't really figure out where in history a sense of national identity and even a little phride in one's national history has been responsible for any crime. The only place I can think of is National socialism where the national socialist decided to take the marxist idea of an absolute state and mix it with a national identity hence national socialism.

Perhaps in the future we can talk about the evils of socialism but I suspect those who have communist aspiration never will.

 

[ihopehefails]

TC is ignorant. It has nothing to do with the government, it is allegiance to the flag and the republic, the republic representing the PEOPLE. Idiot.

I would much rather swear an allegiance to my own self and the right to pursue my own interest and the purpose of any government in a free society is to protect those interest.

I'm sure you would, because you're striking me in this thread as rather selfish and immature. However, OTHER people - known as "grownups" - recognize that there are bigger things than themselves, more important goals than just their own gratification, and higher principles than self-absorbed navel-gazing. Therefore, we are willing to swear loyalty to something that embodies those ideals.

Those are all wonderful and I prefer to find things bigger than myself to serve in the private sphere such as religion, family, and etc but when did government become something we had to put aside our own pursuits for its. I'm sorry but government is not something bigger than ourselves like God but is something that serves our purpose only.

 

[hjmick]

For the most part, I have no problem with the Pledge of Allegiance. I get it, I understand it. I would prefer, however, that if it is to be recited in the classroom, the students first[/i] be educated about it. It's history, it's meaning, and the evolution of the words. Then, remove the "under GOD" part and give the students an opt out should they or their parents object. Anything else is simply indoctrination.

As I recall, the author of the Pledge intended it to be used by any nation, that is why the original is so generic.

 

[Old Rocks]

I know this is going to be misunderstood as being anti-American and I really don't blame people for thinking that considering all the liberal flag burners in this country but I really don't agree with the pledge of allegiance as a concept. I think that its really a disguised loyalty oath that makes us swear a pledge to the government or why would they put "to the republic for which it stands". Why can't it be something like I pledge allegiance to the flag (symbol of our country) and to freedom and justice for all where we will be pledging to our nation and our fellow citizens and not to our government.

None of us makes pledges to the state or city governments. There is not even a pledge for our own states but the federal government has its own pledge. What if I really don't want to pledge allegiance to our country? Don't have the right to do that and still be here?

I expect to get a lot of flack from conservatives and I also think a lot of liberals will be cheering because there is a fellow USA hater but that is not the case. I actually like being an American who lives in a free society but I'm questioning the purpose of the pledge of allegiance.

It's a Goddamned Commie plot


The Strange Origin of the Pledge of Allegiance

In 1892, a socialist named Francis Bellamy created the Pledge of
Allegiance for *Youth's* *Companion*, a national family magazine for
youth published in Boston. The magazine had the largest national
circulation of its day with a circulation around 500 thousand. Two
liberal businessmen, Daniel Ford and James Upham, his nephew, owned
*Youth's* *Companion*.

One hundred years ago the American flag was rarely seen in the classroom
or in front of the school Upham changed that. In 1888, the magazine
began a campaign to sell American flags to the public schools. By 1892,
his magazine had sold American flags to about 26 thousands schools(1).

In 1891, Upham had the idea of using the celebration of the 400th
anniversary of Christopher Columbus' discovery of America to promote the
use of the flag in the public schools. The same year, the magazine hired
Daniel Ford's radical young friend, Baptist minister, Nationalist, and
Christian Socialist leader, Francis Bellamy, to help Upham in his public
relations work. Bellamy was the first cousin of the famous American
socialist, Edward Bellamy. Edward Bellamy's futuristic novel, *Looking*
*Backward*, published in 1888, described a utopian Boston in the year
2000. The book spawned an elitist socialist movement in Boston known as
"Nationalism," whose members wanted the federal government to national
most of the American economy. Francis Bellamy was a member of this
movement and a vice president of its auxiliary group, the Society of
Christian Socialists(2). He was a baptist minister and he lectured and
preached on the virtues of socialism and the evils of capitalism. He
gave a speech on "Jesus the Socialist" and a series of sermons on "The
Socialism of the Primitive Church." In 1891, he was forced to resign
from his Boston church, the Bethany Baptist church, because of his
socialist activities. He then joined the staff of the *Youth's*
*Companion*(3).

 

[Old Rocks]

I know this is going to be misunderstood as being anti-American and I really don't blame people for thinking that considering all the liberal flag burners in this country but I really don't agree with the pledge of allegiance as a concept. I think that its really a disguised loyalty oath that makes us swear a pledge to the government or why would they put "to the republic for which it stands". Why can't it be something like I pledge allegiance to the flag (symbol of our country) and to freedom and justice for all where we will be pledging to our nation and our fellow citizens and not to our government.

None of us makes pledges to the state or city governments. There is not even a pledge for our own states but the federal government has its own pledge. What if I really don't want to pledge allegiance to our country? Don't have the right to do that and still be here?

I expect to get a lot of flack from conservatives and I also think a lot of liberals will be cheering because there is a fellow USA hater but that is not the case. I actually like being an American who lives in a free society but I'm questioning the purpose of the pledge of allegiance.

the thing that some don't understand is the fact you can burn are flag in protest and it is protected by our constitution is what is so great about this country. It is alright for the teabaggers to protest our government but god forbid a bleeding heart liberal protest anything, since they hate america and all.

There is no reason to burn the flag of your own country unless you hate it or not have any sense of identification with it. And yes people have the power to burn the American flag but other people have the right to be upset about it because expressing your general displeasure with flag-burning is also protected speech under the same first amendment that protects flag burners.

I have participated in many flag burnings.

American Flag Retirment, American Flag Cremation

 

[Cecilie1200]

I would much rather swear an allegiance to my own self and the right to pursue my own interest and the purpose of any government in a free society is to protect those interest.

I'm sure you would, because you're striking me in this thread as rather selfish and immature. However, OTHER people - known as "grownups" - recognize that there are bigger things than themselves, more important goals than just their own gratification, and higher principles than self-absorbed navel-gazing. Therefore, we are willing to swear loyalty to something that embodies those ideals.

Those are all wonderful and I prefer to find things bigger than myself to serve in the private sphere such as religion, family, and etc but when did government become something we had to put aside our own pursuits for its. I'm sorry but government is not something bigger than ourselves like God but is something that serves our purpose only.

It's not a matter of "where you prefer to find it". It is where it is, and it seems to me that your "bigger things in personal realms" is really just another way of being selfish and self-absorbed. Even your bigger things are still all about you.

Second of all, you're now officially pissing me off with this deliberately obtuse continuation of "It's about the government". Since you have had multiple people, including me, explain to you what you clearly don't have the basic English mastery to figure out from the words - that the pledge has nothing whatsoever to do with the government - I can only assume at this point that you are either a) too pig-stupid to be worth talking to, or b) determined to think what you want to think in the face of all evidence because it justifies being an immature me-monkey forever. Either way, you are now beneath my notice on this subject. Carry on ranting about nothing.

 

[Yukon]

Cecilie,

If the GOVERNMENT can change this so-called pledge, as Midcan posted, than it is a GOVERNMENT mandated load of BS designed to ensure idiotic sheep do as they are told by their POLITICAL masters (the Government).

It seems to me that it is you who is "too pig-stupid".

p.s. I think Flag burning is a good thing too. Nothing funnier than watching the heads of the "right-wing wack-jobs" explode.

 

[ihopehefails]

I'm sure you would, because you're striking me in this thread as rather selfish and immature. However, OTHER people - known as "grownups" - recognize that there are bigger things than themselves, more important goals than just their own gratification, and higher principles than self-absorbed navel-gazing. Therefore, we are willing to swear loyalty to something that embodies those ideals.

Those are all wonderful and I prefer to find things bigger than myself to serve in the private sphere such as religion, family, and etc but when did government become something we had to put aside our own pursuits for its. I'm sorry but government is not something bigger than ourselves like God but is something that serves our purpose only.

It's not a matter of "where you prefer to find it". It is where it is, and it seems to me that your "bigger things in personal realms" is really just another way of being selfish and self-absorbed. Even your bigger things are still all about you.

Second of all, you're now officially pissing me off with this deliberately obtuse continuation of "It's about the government". Since you have had multiple people, including me, explain to you what you clearly don't have the basic English mastery to figure out from the words - that the pledge has nothing whatsoever to do with the government - I can only assume at this point that you are either a) too pig-stupid to be worth talking to, or b) determined to think what you want to think in the face of all evidence because it justifies being an immature me-monkey forever. Either way, you are now beneath my notice on this subject. Carry on ranting about nothing.

No...not really dude.

I'm not particularly religious but if I was I would think that God was bigger than the government. I would also think it is bigger than every human being on earth combined but I suppose you think otherwise and that is your right. Tell me why I don't have the right to pick my own big thing to worship. I will gladly await your reason why I can't choose what to worship and will gladly tell you that the first amendment gives me the right to worship whatever I want.