New York Judgment Against Trump Violates the Eighth Amendment

[meaner gene]

Huh? What do actual crimes have to do with the nothingburger of a “crime” for which Trump is being destroyed?

Trump committed the fraud of false statements to a financial institution. Presidential immunitys are the only thing shielding Trump from being charged criminally for them.

 

[Rawley]

Trump committed the fraud of false statements to a financial institution. Presidential immunitys are the only thing shielding Trump from being charged criminally for them.

Still batting 1,000% Ratty. Kudos.

 

[Dadoalex]

"Fraid not.

Actually...
If for example
Trump valued a property at 500M for a loan
Then valued it at 200M for tax purposes
Then there are 2 actual frauds

Because of the higher claimed value banks lent at lower interest rates. Assuming a 1 point delta on a 200M loan he defrauded the lenders out of $2M per year and
When he further devalued the property for taxes he defrauded the taxpayers of New york around $300K per year.
Not to mention insurance fraud.

 

[Catsnmeters]

Yawn.

I myself have always been honest, but I bet tens of thousands of people have exaggerated the value of their home. The banks caught it in an appraisal, and adjusted the loan amount.

You do realize the disgorgement was not based on any one individual "exaggeration", it is based on multiple and excessive fraud from Trump, his company , some of his employees and his kids. It wasn't minor fraud, it was outlandish over years and years. Thousands of percentages or more.

Should the homeowners all be pulled into court and fined $1 million? Why is Trump being ruined for something 50,000 people have done?

If the homeowner profited from their fraud to that level then yes.

You keep claiming that 50k people have done it but you don't name any.

 

[Lisa558]

Trump committed the fraud of false statements to a financial institution. Presidential immunitys are the only thing shielding Trump from being charged criminally for them.

Pffft. There was a clause in there that recommended the bank do its own due diligence. The bank ran the numbers, decided it was in their best interest to lend him the money, and it was - they made a fortune on the business deal.

That this was the biggest ”crime” Lucretia DeVille could unearth is pretty telling.

The REAL corruption is the Biden Crime Family.

 

[meaner gene]

Should the homeowners all be pulled into court and fined $1 million? Why is Trump being ruined for something 50,000 people have done?

It might be true that 500K homeowners have exaggerated something about their homes to the bank. Like claiming a partially finished basement as a finished basement. Or that the kitchen was refinished, when all they did was replace the appliances. Yes people may make such claims, but they represent a few thousand dollars, not a few million.

And they aren't in the same league. They would have to claim a one bedroom house was a three bedroom house in order to match the scale of Trumps fraud.

 

[meaner gene]

Pffft. There was a clause in there that recommended the bank do its own due diligence. The bank ran the numbers, decided it was in their best interest to lend him the money, and it was - they made a fortune on the business deal.

What you leave out is that Trump committed fraud on his underlying numbers (the books) also. So when he said his golf course was worth $300 million, based on his books, saying it was making $5 million a year in profits, the banks due diligence was limited to reading Trumps fraudulent books.
The real books showing it was barely making $1 million a year in profits would drop the value to $150 million or less.
So if Trump was getting a secured equity loan of $200 million on the property, the bank would charge him the normal home equity rate. But if they knew the property was only worth $150 million, they would charge him the unsecured personal loan rate for half the loan.

 

[JoeB131]

There’s a constituional right to have the penalty fit the damages, as well as not be the sole one targeted for a commonplace, and victimsless infraction.

Don’t you idiot Libs realize that when do these types of things to prevent the candidate that most voters want as president that you are LOSING votes? Especially since the half-dead candidate YOU are putting up is not only in mid-stage dementia, but allowed his family to become multimillionaires by peddling Infkuence? You people are such hypocrites.

Most voters don't want Trump... he's only polling at about 46%, the same percentage of the electorate he always gets.

If you want to talk about "influence peddling", let's talk about the millions the Trump Org made from foreign entities while Trump was in office.

 

[Lisa558]

It might be true that 500K homeowners have exaggerated something about their homes to the bank. Like claiming a partially finished basement as a finished basement. Or that the kitchen was refinished, when all they did was replace the appliances. Yes people may make such claims, but they represent a few thousand dollars, not a few million.

And they aren't in the same league. They would have to claim a one bedroom house was a three bedroom house in order to match the scale of Trumps fraud.

The amount of money is meaningless, given that there were no victims in Trump’s case and nobody had damages. It’s the same infraction: providing false information, knowingly or unknowingly.

This was an obvious targeting of an individual - with a malicious prosecutor searching for a crime. This incident just made it MORE likely Trump beats Biden (or Kamala).

 

[Lisa558]

What you leave out is that Trump committed fraud on his underlying numbers (the books) also. So when he said his golf course was worth $300 million, based on his books, saying it was making $5 million a year in profits, the banks due diligence was limited to reading Trumps fraudulent books.
The real books showing it was barely making $1 million a year in profits would drop the value to $150 million or less.
So if Trump was getting a secured equity loan of $200 million on the property, the bank would charge him the normal home equity rate. But if they knew the property was only worth $150 million, they would charge him the unsecured personal loan rate for half the loan.

Eh. The banks were thrilled to make the loan, and would do so again.

No harm, no foul.

 

[meaner gene]

The amount of money is meaningless, given that there were no victims in Trump’s case and nobody had damages. It’s the same infraction: providing false information, knowingly or unknowingly.

But there were victims. The banks were victims, their account holders were victims, their other mortgage lendees were victims.
Just because they were unaware they were victims doesn't mean they weren't victims.

Did you know the IRS may owe you interest if they delay your tax refund beyond the normal timeframe? See details on IRS delays via "Where's My Refund?" If you are owed a tax refund or you overpaid your taxes, the IRS states that they have 45 days to issue your refund before they begin owing you interest.

There are probably millions of people who qualified to receive interest, but didn't know it, and thus they were 100% happy with the refund, with no interest, they received.
They didn't complains, and thus weren't victims.

Right?

 

[meaner gene]

Eh. The banks were thrilled to make the loan, and would do so again.

No harm, no foul.

Does that apply to Bernie Maddoff?

 

[otto105]

Not only does the absurd judgment by the clown judge Engeron violate Trumps's 8th Amendment rights, it is also based on a statute that is unconstitutional.

Making the entire trial an obscene play. Lead by an obscene judge who really cares nothing for the oath he swore.

In 1998, however, the Court injected vitality into the strictures of the clause. "The touchstone of the constitutional inquiry under the Excessive Fines Clause is the principle of proportionality: The amount of the forfeiture must bear some relationship to the gravity of the offense that it is designed to punish." In United States v. Bajakajian, the government sought to require that a criminal defendant charged with violating federal reporting requirements regarding the transportation of more than $10,000 in currency out of the country forfeit the currency involved, which totaled $357,144. The Court held that the forfeiture in this particular case violated the Excessive Fines Cause because the amount forfeited was "grossly disproportionate to the gravity of defendant’s offense." In determining proportionality, the Court did not limit itself to a comparison of the fine amount to the proven offense, but it also considered the particular facts of the case, the character of the defendant, and the harm caused by the offense.​

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt8-3/ALDE_00000962/

And see:

Opinion analysis: Eighth Amendment’s ban on excessive fines applies to the states - SCOTUSblog

The Supreme Court today ruled that the Eighth Amendment’s ban on excessive fines applies to the states. The decision is a victory for an Indiana man whose luxury SUV was seized after he pleaded guilty to selling heroin. It is also a blow to state and local governments, for whom fines and forfeitures

www.scotusblog.com

Apples and oranges comparison.

And quit the "everyone hates the orange fuckup and everything is unconstitutional" bullshit.

You're just whining.

 

[Lisa558]

But there were victims. The banks were victims, their account holders were victims, their other mortgage lendees were victims.
Just because they were unaware they were victims doesn't mean they weren't victims.

How were the banks victims? They made $100 million and want to do business with Trump again! And how are other account holders victims? Or other mortgage lenders victims?

There were no victims. Try to tell someone who doesn’t fall for this nonsense. It is ALL a political witch-hunt, brought by a prosecutor who campaigned on a promise to ”get Trump” - and the best she could find was a victimless infraction that resulted in no damages,

Did you know the IRS may owe you interest if they delay your tax refund beyond the normal timeframe? See details on IRS delays via "Where's My Refund?" If you are owed a tax refund or you overpaid your taxes, the IRS states that they have 45 days to issue your refund before they begin owing you interest.

There are probably millions of people who qualified to receive interest, but didn't know it, and thus they were 100% happy with the refund, with no interest, they received.
They didn't complains, and thus weren't victims.

Right?

Not sure what this ^^^ has to do with anything.

 

[Lisa558]

Does that apply to Bernie Maddoff?

How is that comparable? In that case, there were tons of victims, and they lost fortunes.

Nobody lost a dime in this case. To the contrary, the “victim” MADE a fortune!

Your hate of Trump has blinded you to what is obvious to most Americans.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

That was what tRump valued it at for property tax purposes. The judge attached no value to anything, nor did the prosecutor.

^ When you don’t know the difference between assessed value for property taxes and appraised values

 

[otto105]

How were the banks victims? They made $100 million and want to do business with Trump again! And how are other account holders victims? Or other mortgage lenders victims?

There were no victims. Try to tell someone who doesn’t fall for this nonsense. It is ALL a political witch-hunt, brought by a prosecutor who campaigned on a promise to ”get Trump” - and the best she could find was a victimless infraction that resulted in no damages,

Not sure what this ^^^ has to do with anything.

Excuses lisa.

He inflated values to get better loan terms and deflated values for taxes.

He committed fraud and you all know it.

 

[otto105]

Let;s take margo-largo for an example.

In the case the judge used the 18.2 million figure because that is what the former fuckup paid real estate taxes on in florida. Yet to banks the former fuckup claimed it was worth 650 million. Or more recently 1.5 billion.

 

[Crepitus]

^ When you don’t know the difference between assessed value for property taxes and appraised values

$18 million vs $1 billion?

Use your head for something beside holding up your hat, kid.

 

[para bellum]

Let;s take margo-largo for an example.

In the case the judge used the 18.2 million figure because that is what the former fuckup paid real estate taxes on in florida. Yet to banks the former fuckup claimed it was worth 650 million. Or more recently 1.5 billion.

You know the property owner doesn't get to make his own tax assessments, right?

Trump negotiated that value with Palm Beach County in exchange for other considerations.

No one alleged any tax fraud, or charged Trump with any crime of common law fraud, because they could not produce a victim or show any intent to defraud anyone.

Those Statements of Financial Condition are subjective by nature, they incorporate brand values that are wide open for debate. People pay Trump a lot of money to use his name on properties he doesn't even own a piece of. The lenders and tax authorities do not rely on them for anything. They were provided to lenders because Trump gave a personal guarantee on those loans.

The loans themselves would be collateralized by the project that was being financed. All the parties involved were happy and made money. There was no malfeasance claimed, just some vague notion that Trump would have received less attractive interest rates if his SFC's showed a lower net worth.

The judge ruled (based solely on these SFC's) that Trump was guilty of "civil fraud" before the "trial" even started, and ordered his NY business entities be dissolved for what is essentially a business practice violation.

The "trial" wasn't a trial to find facts, it was the penalty phase where the judge decided how much he would fine Trump.

Trump was (once again) not afforded anything that resembles due process, he was denied the right to a jury trial because he was convicted by summary judgement of a non-crime, and he is denied his right to appeal the judgement until he posts a bond for the entire amount.

Looks a lot like 7th, 8th, and 14th Amendment violations to me...