Obama's going to try Guantanamo detainees in US criminal courts

[AllieBaba]

so you agree these people should be held indefinitely without trial, without counsel and without recourse? wow... you're America is vastly different than mine

You're missing something. The privileges extended to American CITIZENS by our judicial system is meant for American CITIZENS or people who are residing on AMERICAN SOIL.

It's one of the great things about being American. You are a citizen, you abide by the law, and you gain the privilege of this wonderful judicial system.

If you aren't American, if you want to kill Americans and you aren't a citizen of America but you're hell-bent on killing them..guess what? You don't get the perk of an American citizen when you are finally caught. You get to be treated as a POW, an "enemy combatant" whatever. The point is, those things aren't the same as "citizen" and they shouldn't be.

Essentially what the libtards are saying is that people who target Americans are rewarded with all the perks of American citizenship.

Good job, idiots.

 

[Silence]

You're missing something. The privileges extended to American CITIZENS by our judicial system is meant for American CITIZENS or people who are residing on AMERICAN SOIL.

It's one of the great things about being American. You are a citizen, you abide by the law, and you gain the privilege of this wonderful judicial system.

If you aren't American, if you want to kill Americans and you aren't a citizen of America but you're hell-bent on killing them..guess what? You don't get the perk of an American citizen when you are finally caught. You get to be treated as a POW, an "enemy combatant" whatever. The point is, those things aren't the same as "citizen" and they shouldn't be.

Essentially what the libtards are saying is that people who target Americans are rewarded with all the perks of American citizenship.

Good job, idiots.

no Allie, what we're saying is that as HUMAN beings they are entitled to a trial or they should be set free. We don't get to lock people up and throw away the key based on what they MIGHT do in the future. and the fact that that is what we've done under the Bush Administration is a huge part of the problem we face with the rest of the world.

What would happen if an American were being held, without being charged with a crime, for what some country thought he might have been doing?

If they have the proof that these people were plotting against America, then charge them, try them, sentence them and move them along. Seems pretty simple to me.

These people weren't captured during war, since we're only at war in Iraq and Afghanistan and there are citizens of other countries in Gitmo too who were picked up elsewhere and sent to Gitmo.

 

[xsited1]

Boumediene v. Bush made it clear: the 270 detainees at Guantanamo Bay have a constitutional right to habeas corpus, by which they can petition a federal court for a hearing to challenge their detentions.

 

[Annie]

Personally I have no problem with that...cuz if they can't be charged then clearly they haven't done anything wrong. I'm not the type of person who believes that everyone is a criminal.

Some of them have been held for almost 5 years, if they could be charged, why haven't they been?

Clearly. Glad you are so accommodating. Forward that to Washington.

 

[AllieBaba]

no Allie, what we're saying is that as HUMAN beings they are entitled to a trial or they should be set free. We don't get to lock people up and throw away the key based on what they MIGHT do in the future. and the fact that that is what we've done under the Bush Administration is a huge part of the problem we face with the rest of the world.

What would happen if an American were being held, without being charged with a crime, for what some country thought he might have been doing?

If they have the proof that these people were plotting against America, then charge them, try them, sentence them and move them along. Seems pretty simple to me.

These people weren't captured during war, since we're only at war in Iraq and Afghanistan and there are citizens of other countries in Gitmo too who were picked up elsewhere and sent to Gitmo.

Ok...they WERE captured during the war, as you just claimed (see bold) that we're at war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And our laws and our judicial system were not developed and DO NOT APPLY to enemy combatants. These are not pick pockets. These are people who threaten the lives and security of Americans and America. And, as I already pointed out, one of the really CRAPPY things about being a POW is that hey, you don't get out until you've either been cleared or the war is over. However long that takes.

Whether you want to tweak that a little or not is one thing. But assigning the rights of American citizens to POWs and dumping them in our civilian courts is a stupid move on too many levels to even go into.

Close Gitmo, I could care less. Insist that even POWs get their day in court within a reasonable time....except...except....

One of the reasons POWs don't get released regardless of whether or not there has been a trial is that the very nature of their being means we can't always "prove" anything. We may not have access to the things we need to prove, "without a reasonable doubt" that they're "guilty" of anything.

See, that's not required in wartime. That's why MPs can shoot looters without a trial. That's why deserters can be hanged. It's a different scenario.

It's people like you, with your stupid insistence that war can be waged in the same manner as a school board meeting, and the Rules of Engagement from a different time should be universally applied....even when dealing with an enemy which disguises itself as civilian....who are getting our people killed in Iraq..and even more in Afghanistan.

 

[AllieBaba]

BTW, Rules of Engagement are meaningless unless EVERYONE ADHERES TO THEM.

The terrorists don't adhere to them. Therefore those rules should be OUT. Or we shouldn't engage.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Ok...they WERE captured during the war, as you just claimed (see bold) that we're at war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And our laws and our judicial system were not developed and DO NOT APPLY to enemy combatants. These are not pick pockets. These are people who threaten the lives and security of Americans and America. And, as I already pointed out, one of the really CRAPPY things about being a POW is that hey, you don't get out until you've either been cleared or the war is over. However long that takes.

Whether you want to tweak that a little or not is one thing. But assigning the rights of American citizens to POWs and dumping them in our civilian courts is a stupid move on too many levels to even go into.

Close Gitmo, I could care less. Insist that even POWs get their day in court within a reasonable time....except...except....

One of the reasons POWs don't get released regardless of whether or not there has been a trial is that the very nature of their being means we can't always "prove" anything. We may not have access to the things we need to prove, "without a reasonable doubt" that they're "guilty" of anything.

See, that's not required in wartime. That's why MPs can shoot looters without a trial. That's why deserters can be hanged. It's a different scenario.

It's people like you, with your stupid insistence that war can be waged in the same manner as a school board meeting, and the Rules of Engagement from a different time should be universally applied....even when dealing with an enemy which disguises itself as civilian....who are getting our people killed in Iraq..and even more in Afghanistan.

Waging a war in this manner is what distinguishes us from our enemies. That's why we shouldn't torture people (beyond the pragmatic reasons), and how it is that we can claim that we are a just, humane, and "civilized" nation.

The reason our soldiers are being killed in Iraq and Afghanistan is because we invaded those countries (i.e. putting our soldiers there) and those countries didn't want our soldiers there. The Taliban, Al Qaida, Iraqi militant insurgents, and other enemies of the US, are who are killing our soldiers - not Americans who wish to treat people with basic human rights.

Your fear is showing Allie.

 

[Turboswede]

Israel

Seriously, Obama is in between a rock and a hard place on this one. The old administration gets to leave the new administration with these guys who are a potential threat if released but basically held illegally. I think some were actual “enemy combatants” who would (under the Geneva Convention) being allowed to return home once the Taliban ceased to exist in Afghanistan.

I don’t know what we are supposed to do with the rest, we need to either have some kind of trial because I think they are way to visible to just “disappear” now. They are a political hot potato that just won’t go away. You know, Israel may not be such a bad idea now that you mention it.

 

[Annie]

Seriously, Obama is in between a rock and a hard place on this one. The old administration gets to leave the new administration with these guys who are a potential threat if released but basically held illegally. I think some were actual “enemy combatants” who would (under the Geneva Convention) being allowed to return home once the Taliban ceased to exist in Afghanistan.

I don’t know what we are supposed to do with the rest, we need to either have some kind of trial because I think they are way to visible to just “disappear” now. They are a political hot potato that just won’t go away. You know, Israel may not be such a bad idea now that you mention it.

Not really. He could choose to hold them till 'the end of hostilities and let them go home. what he does?

 

[AllieBaba]

Personally, I think we should use the rules of each detainee's own government against him when he is captured. If you want to be treated as an American citizen, become an American citizen.

Otherwise, you get the same justice your own country would give you if you were caught attacking them.

 

[rayboyusmc]

Not all these prisoners were captured on the battlefield fighting our forces. Some were turned in by a neighbor who might have had a family feud against the other person's family for generations.

You can't assume that they are all terrorists. If you put them on trial like we should, then maybe you can sort out the wheat from the chaff.

If you kept me in prison for 5 years with no charges and then let me go with no charges, no apology or recompense, I would definately be your enemy for life.

Find and destroy the terrorists. Don't punish the innocent and make them terrorists.

 

[rayboyusmc]

Not really. He could choose to hold them till 'the end of hostilities and let them go home

I missed this one. What a cop out. It doesn't matter if your guilty or not, we aren't going to even check on it till all this shit is over.

What if they did that to you?

 

[Turboswede]

Not really. He could choose to hold them till 'the end of hostilities and let them go home. what he does?

Personally I don’t think hostilities will ever end in terms of Terrorism, and even if we did secure Afghanistan, I think releasing these guys after 10, 15, or 20 years in Gitmo may have a destabilizing effect on the region.

Imagine a stable Afghanistan with like 3 or 4 secular political parties and free elections. Now drop 20-30 radicals who have been political prisoners in the US for the past couple of decades. If would be like when South Africa released Nelson Mandela, all they would need to do is show up to win the presidency or form their own majority party.

Remember, no matter how we sell it, they are going to be considered heroes by the Afghani people long after the war is over just for standing up against the US. As Americans we would do the exact same thing if the tables were turned.

 

[Annie]

Personally I don’t think hostilities will ever end in terms of Terrorism, and even if we did secure Afghanistan, I think releasing these guys after 10, 15, or 20 years in Gitmo may have a destabilizing effect on the region.

Imagine a stable Afghanistan with like 3 or 4 secular political parties and free elections. Now drop 20-30 radicals who have been political prisoners in the US for the past couple of decades. If would be like when South Africa released Nelson Mandela, all they would need to do is show up to win the presidency or form their own majority party.

Remember, no matter how we sell it, they are going to be considered heroes by the Afghani people long after the war is over just for standing up against the US. As Americans we would do the exact same thing if the tables were turned.

I'm missing something. I did as you asked and fail to find a connection to those at Gitmo and your something. Undoubtedly the fault is mine. Can you help out here?

 

[Silence]

Ok...they WERE captured during the war, as you just claimed (see bold) that we're at war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

it's cute that you cherry picked my quote Allie. These people weren't captured inside the borders of the countries we're current at war in, therefore they can't be classified as POWs IMO.

And our laws and our judicial system were not developed and DO NOT APPLY to enemy combatants. These are not pick pockets. These are people who threaten the lives and security of Americans and America. And, as I already pointed out, one of the really CRAPPY things about being a POW is that hey, you don't get out until you've either been cleared or the war is over. However long that takes.

then take them into court and PROVE IT! if there is evidence of their illegal/terrorist activity it shouldn't be difficult to get a conviction right?

Whether you want to tweak that a little or not is one thing. But assigning the rights of American citizens to POWs and dumping them in our civilian courts is a stupid move on too many levels to even go into.

They tried Saddam Hussien didn't they? why can't these people get the same thing?

Close Gitmo, I could care less. Insist that even POWs get their day in court within a reasonable time....except...except....

One of the reasons POWs don't get released regardless of whether or not there has been a trial is that the very nature of their being means we can't always "prove" anything. We may not have access to the things we need to prove, "without a reasonable doubt" that they're "guilty" of anything.

See, that's not required in wartime. That's why MPs can shoot looters without a trial. That's why deserters can be hanged. It's a different scenario.

The fault with your entire logic is that these people aren't soliders, they weren't fighting in the war and therefore aren't considered POWs. Some are being detained on nothing more than rumor and supposition, no real evidence and no proof.

It's people like you, with your stupid insistence that war can be waged in the same manner as a school board meeting, and the Rules of Engagement from a different time should be universally applied....even when dealing with an enemy which disguises itself as civilian....who are getting our people killed in Iraq..and even more in Afghanistan.

It's people like me who would fight to protect the rights of people like you should you be taken prisoner and held without trial and/or counsel.

You're so quick to strip them of their basic human rights, what does that say about you Allie? nothing good, that's for damn sure.

 

[AllieBaba]

I'm not for stripping them of human rights.
But I"m not for giving them the rights of American citizens, either.

I do have a problem with using rules of engagement which cost our military men and women their lives. They are outdated and unrealistic, and should be revamped.

 

[rayboyusmc]

I'm not for stripping them of human rights.

No, just throught them in prison with no charges or representation and let them rot.

 

[DiveCon]

Personally I have no problem with that...cuz if they can't be charged then clearly they haven't done anything wrong. I'm not the type of person who believes that everyone is a criminal.

Some of them have been held for almost 5 years, if they could be charged, why haven't they been?

do you REALLY believe that?

 

[DiveCon]

it's cute that you cherry picked my quote Allie. These people weren't captured inside the borders of the countries we're current at war in, therefore they can't be classified as POWs IMO.



<snipped>.

i didnt read beyond this so i will only address this

they cant be held as POW's because they dont meet the definition of a POW according to the GC's


they are illegal combatants

 

[dilloduck]

Personally, I think we should use the rules of each detainee's own government against him when he is captured. If you want to be treated as an American citizen, become an American citizen.

Otherwise, you get the same justice your own country would give you if you were caught attacking them.

How about they all do a year of community service in Gaza ?

Seriously---tell them that we going be keeping an eye on em and let em go.