Oh...it's not a 'baby' or a 'person' - it's just a FETUS...a clump of tissue!

[ajwps]

And the radicalized, paranoid segment of the jewish population puts a positive moral premium on any death of a non jew, so the racial/ethnic composition of society doesn't get "out of control".

What topic are you relating to?

Did you make up your statement about a paranoid Jewish population who puts some moral imperative on the death of non-Jews?

What are you talking about?????

 

[rtwngAvngr]

What topic are you relating to?

Did you make up your statement about a paranoid Jewish population who puts some moral imperative on the death of non-Jews?

What are you talking about?????

I'm talking about you and people like you, paranoid jews with tons of logically inconsistent propaganda to spew. You know the funny thing is I still support Israel? We really are allies. If you could stop villifying whites, christians and anyone who disagrees with your lame-brained politically inspired, pseudointellectuality, you could see that.

 

[ajwps]

Where in the world do you find it scientifically that it is not life? From everything I have read ont he subject there is not one scientist that will categorically state that it is not life!!!!

LIFE???? Is a tree or a flea alive? What scientific evidence have you read that gives a hint about existence or life? Scientists put the concept of 'life' in the catagory of the metaphysical and do not attempt to catagorize or define HUMAN life or cognition in any way.

Additionally Roe Vs Wade was based on a lie, she was never raped!!! So technically the law is bogus in that it has no foundation! By the way the abortion industry is a multi billion dollar industry, so don't for a minute be fooled into thinking these really nice ladies from NOW and NARAL are in it for the good of womans free choice over her own body because that is bullshit!!!

Technicality does not a ringer make in horseshoes. Roe vs. Wade is the law of the land of the United States. Your definitions of illegality and no foundation ring hollow.

Do you know how many millions are being made by the 'pro-life better known as pro-death' anti-abortionists causing the death of mother and baby. Before the law became part and parcel of the land, illegal coathanger abortions resulted in many cases with the death of the mother and her fetus.

That is the issue here. Give me any real scientist and his work product that says HUMAN LIFE exists in the preborn fetus.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

LIFE???? Is a tree or a flea alive? What scientific evidence have you read that gives a hint about existence or life? Scientists put the concept of 'life' in the catagory of the metaphysical and do not attempt to catagorize or define HUMAN life or cognition in any way.

This is utter crap. As a doctor, what criteria do you use to pronounce a person dead? What do you call the studies of psychiatry and psychology? Don't they at least deal with defining human cognition? Your credibility is waning.

Technicality does not a ringer make in horseshoes. Roe vs. Wade is the law of the land of the United States. Your definitions of illegality and no foundation ring hollow.

The vastness of the interior empty space of your cranium rings hollow as well.

Do you know how many millions are being made by the 'pro-life better known as pro-death' anti-abortionists causing the death of mother and baby. Before the law became part and parcel of the land, illegal coathanger abortions resulted in many cases with the death of the mother and her fetus.

That is the issue here. Give me any real scientist and his work product that says HUMAN LIFE exists in the preborn fetus.

How would you describe a stillborn birth to a layperson?

 

[Bonnie]

LIFE???? Is a tree or a flea alive? What scientific evidence have you read that gives a hint about existence or life? Scientists put the concept of 'life' in the catagory of the metaphysical and do not attempt to catagorize or define HUMAN life or cognition in any way.



Technicality does not a ringer make in horseshoes. Roe vs. Wade is the law of the land of the United States. Your definitions of illegality and no foundation ring hollow.

Do you know how many millions are being made by the 'pro-life better known as pro-death' anti-abortionists causing the death of mother and baby. Before the law became part and parcel of the land, illegal coathanger abortions resulted in many cases with the death of the mother and her fetus.

That is the issue here. Give me any real scientist and his work product that says HUMAN LIFE exists in the preborn fetus.

So somehow you see the pro abortion movement as great for saving life???What!!!

Lets see by your logic then people are going to commit murder so why not make it easy and sterile for them to do so......And while we are at it since everyone is going to steel lets just stop locking our doors at night and make it easier for the criminals to get in, in fact why not just put it in a nice tidy bag on the front lawn for them to carry away??

There have been more abortion murders committed in the US than all the wars put together, and you are worried about a small group of tragic woman who are so weak minded they put a coat hanger up their uterus to kill their own flesh and blood, and we are supposed to bastardize the the constitution to ACCOMODATE them!!!!
And by the way I do suport abortion in small cases where the life of the mother is in danger, but all other abortions are unnessessary and barbaric!! Period!!!


Nice Try But No Cigar !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ajwps]

I'm talking about you and people like you, paranoid jews with tons of logically inconsistent propaganda to spew. You know the funny thing is I still support Israel? We really are allies. If you could stop villifying whites, christians and anyone who disagrees with your lame-brained politically inspired, pseudointellectuality, you could see that.

Its nice of you to support Israel's existence and being allies and all but what are you talking about paranoid Jews and killing non-Jews to make things equalize?

I'm not certain of what you mean by spewing propaganda or villifying whites, Christians or anyone else. You may have interpreted my point of view as something of which you do not agree or which threatens your beliefs but you must be a bit more specific.

Name calling doesn't give information about what you are talking about. If you are speaking about HUMAN LIFE in the fetus, then you might spell it out more clearly.

 

[ajwps]

So somehow you see the pro abortion movement as great for saving life??? What!!!

You apparently got my point regarding the killing times before Roe vs. Wade. Abortion is a moral and ethical choice for people to make and not for any government to legislate into law. The Right To Life Clause of the US Constitution apparently does not mean someone's concept of when that life begins.

Lets see by your logic then people are going to commit murder so why not make it easy and sterile for them to do so......And while we are at it since everyone is going to steel lets just stop locking our doors at night and make it easier for the criminals to get in, in fact why not just put it in a nice tidy bag on the front lawn for them to carry away??

So you choose to compare sterile abortion (apples) to stealing (oranges). First you must define the words MURDER and KILLING.

There have been more abortion murders committed in the US than all the wars put together, and you are worried about a small group of tragic woman who are so weak minded they put a coat hanger up their uterus to kill their own flesh and blood, and we are supposed to bastardize the the constitution to ACCOMODATE them!!!!

Is that you legal or moral judgement? What if I told you that I had proof that not one murder has occurred during an abortion of a fetus in the entire world? Your personal opinion of that statement is going to upset you but you have to give me some evidence of HUMAN LIFE existing in the growing fetus.

You say a small group of tragic women voluntarily underwent abortions (coathanger being only one way) to kill their own flesh and blood. You are the one trying to create something new in the US Constitution about some moral or ethical Constitutional TEN COMMANDMENTS when its framers never intended it to be a Biblical document referencing when HUMAN SOULS enter forming fetuses. Where in the Constitution does it say anything about abortions?

And by the way I do suport abortion in small cases where the life of the mother is in danger, but all other abortions are unnessessary and barbaric!! Period!!!

Great.... YOU SUPPORT abortion in your mind about some small cases where the life of the mother is in danger. You might want to submit an amendment to the Constitution to change the law of the land to reflect your opinion. I too support abortion be done only when necessary but I do not place myself as some kind of prophet or spokesman for a Creator who decides when HUMAN LIFE becomes a problem. The concept of a human soul or life comes only from the Bible for I can read in the original language of the Bible. The Old and New Testament says nothing about abortion but does give an indication of that there is no HUMAN LIFE in the preborn.

Nice Try But No Cigar !!!!!!!!!!!

So you say....

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Its nice of you to support Israel's existence and being allies and all but what are you talking about paranoid Jews and killing non-Jews to make things equalize?

You justification of apartheid-like laws in Israel on the ground that "jews might get ganged up on is paranoid. I'm talking about your constant mockery/fear of christians, and espousal of a multiculturalism which is really just a thinly veiled, institutionalized anti-white, anti-christian sentiment.

I'm not certain of what you mean by spewing propaganda

There's no such thing as race.
Defining human life in a pre birth fetus is impossible and not done by scientists. (What about fetal heart monitors?)

or villifying whites, Christians or anyone else.

You may have interpreted my point of view as something of which you do not agree or which threatens your beliefs but you must be a bit more specific.

No. I'm fairly certain I've nailed your position down to a tee.

Name calling doesn't give information about what you are talking about.

And pretending you don't understand what people are talking about also yields little in the way of useful discourse.

If you are speaking about HUMAN LIFE in the fetus, then you might spell it out more clearly.

You thought I might have been referring to CANINE LIFE in the fetus? We know you're not this remedial. Please be honest for a change. You might like it. How can you call yourself a jew when jews believe in not lying?

 

[Bonnie]

You apparently got my point regarding the killing times before Roe vs. Wade. Abortion is a moral and ethical choice for people to make and not for any government to legislate into law. The Right To Life Clause of the US Constitution apparently does not mean someone's concept of when that life begins.



So you choose to compare sterile abortion (apples) to stealing (oranges). First you must define the words MURDER and KILLING.



Is that you legal or moral judgement? What if I told you that I had proof that not one murder has occurred during an abortion of a fetus in the entire world? Your personal opinion of that statement is going to upset you but you have to give me some evidence of HUMAN LIFE existing in the growing fetus.

You say a small group of tragic women voluntarily underwent abortions (coathanger being only one way) to kill their own flesh and blood. You are the one trying to create something new in the US Constitution about some moral or ethical Constitutional TEN COMMANDMENTS when its framers never intended it to be a Biblical document referencing when HUMAN SOULS enter forming fetuses. Where in the Constitution does it say anything about abortions?



Great.... YOU SUPPORT abortion in your mind about some small cases where the life of the mother is in danger. You might want to submit an amendment to the Constitution to change the law of the land to reflect your opinion. I too support abortion be done only when necessary but I do not place myself as some kind of prophet or spokesman for a Creator who decides when HUMAN LIFE becomes a problem. The concept of a human soul or life comes only from the Bible for I can read in the original language of the Bible. The Old and New Testament says nothing about abortion but does give an indication of that there is no HUMAN LIFE in the preborn.



So you say....

Im not going to get into semantics and parsing words with you becaue this is not a semantics issue.

Obviously as a physician you may have performed abortions so you feel a great need to justify this to yourself because it makes you feel better.......Great for you so be it.

I never brought my faith into this discussion, you are the one doing that. Even from a secular humanisitic point of view, abortion is wrong because it is the taking of a human life, you don't have to be a religious person to see that, just a compassionate one. When all mudur is deemed legal then we can talk about abortion being right or okay. let's mot be hypocrites and decide who gets to live and who gets to die based on convenience.

Since you brought up religion lets go there. You conveniently side step the whole premise of the bible by stating that no where in it says that killing the preborn is wrong, however it is right in the commandments that thou shalt not kill, again you get around that by saying a preborn baby is not a human therefore not protected by that law of god. Very transparent and this argument being used is getting very old!!!!

I sincerely doubt that whatever god you or anyone else espouses looks down and sees all the those helpless inocent babies being ripped apart and thrown out like garbadge as something that is perfectly understandable and just gosh darn okay. If you really and truly beleive that then you have absolutely no concept of a loving and just god, and I feel sorry for you truly!!

By the way just because abortion is the law of the land that does not make it right. Slavery was the law of the land until some enlightened and religious in society realised how immoral it was and ended it. As far as the pro life groups go I'll give my money to them any day fo the week becasue they use that money to save lives not destroy it. They give pregnant women a place to stay, have the baby and then give it up for adoption, much more positive thing wouldn't you say???

 

[ajwps]

You justification of apartheid-like laws in Israel on the ground that "jews might get ganged up on is paranoid. I'm talking about your constant mockery/fear of christians, and espousal of a multiculturalism which is really just a thinly veiled, institutionalized anti-white, anti-christian sentiment.

Apartheid-LIKE laws in Israel? Don't know of any, could you give an example?

There's no such thing as race.

How about Human Race?

Defining human life in a pre birth fetus is impossible and not done by scientists. (What about fetal heart monitors?)

Does a fetal heart beat registered on a monitor indicate HUMAN LIFE? A fetal heart beat can be registered in a kangaroo? Do you have a problem with kangroo abortions?

No. I'm fairly certain I've nailed your position down to a tee.

Well I am not so certain as yourself.

And pretending you don't understand what people are talking about also yields little in the way of useful discourse.

Actually I do know what you are trying to say but in my humble opinion, sarcasm is a better way to get my point across to someone who apparently doesn't understand reason.

You thought I might have been referring to CANINE LIFE in the fetus? We know you're not this remedial. Please be honest for a change. You might like it. How can you call yourself a jew when jews believe in not lying?

Actually Jews have been known to lie just like everyone else. But I have asked you for proof of your statement and all you give is meaningless rhetoric.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Apartheid-LIKE laws in Israel? Don't know of any, could you give an example?

You yourself have advocated that jews should be guaranteed a certain elevated level of citizenship in israel, to guarantee they cannot lose control of the society. THis is apartheid. I will go get the thread if you want. OR we can just let it drop here.

How about Human Race?

That sounds nice. Let's do away with affirmative action then, and your paranoia about christians. How's that sound?

Does a fetal heart beat registered on a monitor indicate HUMAN LIFE? A fetal heart beat can be registered in a kangaroo? Do you have a problem with kangroo abortions?

You're looking more and more ridiculous every second as you persist with your idiotic, dishonest deflectionry.

Actually I do know what you are trying to say but in my humble opinion, sarcasm is a better way to get my point across to someone who apparently doesn't understand reason.

You wouldn't know reason even if you invited you over for passover. You have substituted paranoia and intellectual dishonesty for reason. would god approve?

Actually Jews have been known to lie just like everyone else. But I have asked you for proof of your statement and all you give is meaningless rhetoric.

All words I used are used properly. My grammar is decent. I think you have trouble with comprehension is all.

Check this out for your benefit, http://www.rif.org.

 

[ajwps]

Im not going to get into semantics and parsing words with you becaue this is not a semantics issue.

Actually semantics is exactly what we are dealing with here. You say there is life in the forming fetus and I say there is not only no proof of this HUMAN LIFE but there are no grounds to assume that HUMAN LIFE exists in the pre-born.

Obviously as a physician you may have performed abortions so you feel a great need to justify this to yourself because it makes you feel better.......Great for you so be it.

Actually I have never performed one single abortion in my career. That is not my speciality and do not care to peform abortions. But I like to think that there are people who know the value of human life and also feel that the ability to interpret the source of human understanding of the seat of HUMAN LIFE or SOUL was not defined at beginning point during formation in utero but actually not until the first breath is drawn. That is what it says. That is what I choose to understand as that is all we have to go by.

I never brought my faith into this discussion, you are the one doing that. Even from a secular humanisitic point of view, abortion is wrong because it is the taking of a human life, you don't have to be a religious person to see that, just a compassionate one. When all mudur is deemed legal then we can talk about abortion being right or okay. let's mot be hypocrites and decide who gets to live and who gets to die based on convenience.

You misunderstand me altogether. Murder is not defined as legal in our justice system but killing is defined as legal under certain circumstances. (war, self-preservation or the preservation of innocent lives).

You make a very clear definitive statement. "Abortion is wrong because it is the taking of a human life" then something about not having to be religious but just compassionate. If your bible doesn't tell you that a fetus is a human life then it must be someone else who gives you this most secret information. You have now decided that abortion is mudering human life and there is no changing that view fixed in concrete. I simply want proof of your PERSONAL BELIEF.

Since you brought up religion lets go there. You conveniently side step the whole premise of the bible by stating that no where in it says that killing the preborn is wrong, however it is right in the commandments that thou shalt not kill, again you get around that by saying a preborn baby is not a human therefore not protected by that law of god. Very transparent and this argument being used is getting very old!!!!

Let me give you the original words that are at least 2000 years old on parchment.

The first words are Exodus 20:13

And in Deteronomy 5:17

The Hebrew word is Lo-Tiresah

In neither of these Commandments does G-d say anything about a human life or soul in the pre-born. Your argument is old but carries no weight. Words used by G-d and Jesus mean something and you seem to find hidden meanings in them. The words are very clear: DO NOT COMMIT MURDER...

I sincerely doubt that whatever god you or anyone else espouses looks down and sees all the those helpless inocent babies being ripped apart and thrown out like garbadge as something that is perfectly understandable and just gosh darn okay. If you really and truly beleive that then you have absolutely no concept of a loving and just god, and I feel sorry for you truly!!

Oh but I do believe in a loving and just G-d. He simply said nothing about HUMAN LIFE being in an unborn fetus. Oh I have seen dead fetuses fully formed in my training. They were still-borns and I didn't see their HUMAN LIFE had been in them.

By the way just because abortion is the law of the land that does not make it right. Slavery was the law of the land until some enlightened and religious in society realised how immoral it was and ended it. As far as the pro life groups go I'll give my money to them any day fo the week becasue they use that money to save lives not destroy it. They give pregnant women a place to stay, have the baby and then give it up for adoption, much more positive thing wouldn't you say???

I would also prefer adoption and giving birth to living children. But to compare abortion (apples) to slavery (oranges) as both being immoral is a strawman argument. Slaves were and are human beings with a HUMAN LIFE in them but G-d said that there is no human life in the new born until HE breathes the SOUL or ESSENCE into their nostrils at birth. I believe Him and not your gut instincts.

That money you give to anti-abortion groups goes also to buy bullets to kill doctors with HUMAN LIFE in them who also know what G-d said. So in effect you are paying for the murder of living beings.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

What is the purpose of the fetal heart monitor if science rejects the notion of life before the first breath? The answer is that science DOES recognize life in a fetus prior to the first breath of air. You have been thoroughly and effectively countered and dismissed.

 

[ajwps]

You yourself have advocated that jews should be guaranteed a certain elevated level of citizenship in israel, to guarantee they cannot lose control of the society. THis is apartheid. I will go get the thread if you want. OR we can just let it drop here.

No let's not let it drop here. I have not advocated any such thing. Israeli Arabs and Israeli Christians have the same level of citizenship and privlege as any Jewish Israeli citizen. Alien non-citizens have their (green) cards and are restricted from full citizen rights like voting or running for US Presidency. Alien's wishing to blow up American buildings and people are also given special status just like in Israel.

That sounds nice. Let's do away with affirmative action then, and your paranoia about christians. How's that sound?

What exactly does affirmative action and Christian paranoia have to with the human race? You made a very clear statement that there was no such thing as race. Now you deflect.

You're looking more and more ridiculous every second as you persist with your idiotic, dishonest deflectionry.

You asked about fetal heart monitors somehow indicating HUMAN LIFE being present. I responded with sarcasm to illustrate that you have not submitted any proof or evidence of HUMAN LIFE. Now who finds themselves idiotic, dishnonest and deflects from the subject?

You wouldn't know reason even if you invited you over for passover. You have substituted paranoia and intellectual dishonesty for reason. would god approve?

You seem to be fixated with this word paranoia. And in the place or reason or intellectual pursuits you find dishonesty. You ask me if G-d would approve, but I can tell you that I have no idea if G-d approves. He seldom calls me at home.

All words I used are used properly. My grammar is decent. I think you have trouble with comprehension is all.

Is that you what you comprehend? I think you are having difficulty answering me without becoming irate.

Check this out for your benefit, http://www.rif.org.

Nice site. Children are nice and I like them myself. What exactly is your point?

 

[ajwps]

What is the purpose of the fetal heart monitor if science rejects the notion of life before the first breath? The answer is that science DOES recognize life in a fetus prior to the first breath of air. You have been thoroughly and effectively countered and dismissed.

The fetal heart monitor is not to measure HUMAN LIFE but only to determine the progress in the development and progress of the cardiac tissue cells, the rate of the SA and AV nodes that send electrical impulses which causes contraction of the cardiac muscle and the general status of the forming heart.

Science doesn't reject any such notion? Science doesn't even comment on HUMAN LIFE as I said previously, scientists place HUMAN LIFE in the realm of metaphysics.

met·a·phys·i·cal
PRONUNCIATION: mt-fz-kl

ADJECTIVE: 1. Of or relating to metaphysics. 2. Based on speculative or abstract reasoning. 3. Highly abstract or theoretical; abstruse. 4a. Immaterial; incorporeal. See synonyms at immaterial. b. Supernatural.

Yep you are straying into areas that you have little or no knowledge.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Here ya go aj. your words:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showpost.php?p=115198&postcount=20

aj said
Yes equal rights for all Palestinians in their own country of Jordan aka Palestine on the other side of the Jordan river.

Israel happen to be an independent Jewish state and Arabs are not Jewish, ergo they have no rights in Israel but all rights in Jordan, Palestine.

Is that the YES you were looking for?

from this eye opening thread. I suggest anyone interested in what aj thinks read this whole thread.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7614


As for the rest of your "points" aj. They suck. Of course doctors determine the existence of human life in fetuses. The significance of what the heart monitor measures are only relevant in that they are necessary for human life. A heart beat has often times been used as an indicator of life. SO have brain waves, which they also find in prebirth living humans. You just look foolish.

 

[ajwps]

Here ya go aj. your words:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showpost.php?p=115198&postcount=20

Of course non-citizens of Israel have no full citizen rights in a soverign country not their own. Just like illegal aliens in America. No vote, no drivers lisences, no ability to run for President of the USA, no right for children not born in the US to get public education or in many cases health care.

GOP JEFF said it pretty clearly in his post at your posted site.[/quote]

GOPJEFFP says: First, Arabs have all the same rights as Israelis do in Israel. That is not reciprocated in Arab countries.

Second, Americans are not forcing Palestinian Arabs to live in refugee camps. No Arab country will allow the immigration of Palestinian Arabs. And Israel already allow Palestinian Arabs to live peacefully within Israel.
Both of these points are so much different than South Africa that your point is really ridiculous...

from this eye opening thread. I suggest anyone interested in what aj thinks read this whole thread. http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7614

Pulling out of context seems to be your modus. Read the full thread if you like and see how Mr. avenger is pretty selective.

As for the rest of your "points" aj. They suck. Of course doctors determine the existence of human life in fetuses. The significance of what the heart monitor measures are only relevant in that they are necessary for human life. A heart beat has often times been used as an indicator of life. SO have brain waves, which they also find in prebirth living humans. You just look foolish.

Are you a physician or a scientist? So you find heart functions relevant to human life. Does your brain wave pattern indicate that you have human life?

I submit that you are more likely in the form of a one celled amoeba who also has every function of animal life that humans have and yet neither you nor the amoeba have a human life?

That is my professional opinion. You will be receiving a bill shortly.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

The issue is not whether the racial divisiveness is or is not like South Africa. The fact is you do not believe Israelis of Palestinian decent should have equal rights to jews in israel. Once again you seem to think a lot of words justify your position. That is not true. I have taken nothing out of context.

Read the thread yourselves, folks, it goes on for awhile with aj desperately trying to defend his hypocritical, indefensible position.

 

[ajwps]

The issue is not whether the racial divisiveness is or is not like South Africa. The fact is you do not believe Israelis of Palestinian decent should have equal rights to jews in israel. Once again you seem to think a lot of words justify your position. That is not true. I have taken nothing out of context.

Apparently you yourself are out of context. You are now telling me what I believe or what I seem to think. Words have meaning while you have only out of context statements.

Read the thread yourselves, folks, it goes on for awhile with aj desperately trying to defend his hypocritical, indefensible position.

I have already invited anyone to read an entire thread so that my posts can be taken in context. READ AWAY.....

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Apparently you yourself are out of context. You are now telling me what I believe or what I seem to think. Words have meaning while you have only out of context statements.

You say what you believe in your own statements. I can read. That's all.

I have already invited anyone to read an entire thread so that my posts can be taken in context. READ AWAY.....

I'm certain the majority will feel your stance on palestinian rights is less than admirable.