[POLL] - Liberals, how much is a "fair share?" - Taxes

[PMZ]

PMZ objects to those who built and finance the business having the right to vote what happens to that business. Imagine that. But he claims all this brilliant personal business experience--just as he claimed to be a brilliant scientist on the environmental threads. Amazing guy this PMZ. Quite a resume.

(Reminder. . . I still have that nice assortment of bridges to sell ya'll - sale prices this time of year.)

But some of ya'll are absolutely right. People like Obama get elected because they promise more free stuff than the other guy. He sure as hell didn't get elected on his resume, qualifications, or experience.

And most of those who vote for an Obama type don't WANT to be producers, but they sure as hell want what the producers have and some would even suggest that the producers have no control of any kind over their own businesses or the profits/wages they earn from them. And they want the ability to dictate to the producers what their 'Fair Share' of taxes is gonna be. Sounds pretty Marxist to me.

I think that the Fox boobs and boobies must have implanted a chip that has programmed their subjects to believe that everything that is not plutocracy must be Marxism. And the bots who only do black and white (in computers that's called a one bit processor) all say Amen.

A tyranny of ignorance blindly supporting that wealth is entitled to power no matter what the French and American Revolution and the Civil wars were fought over.

Saying forgive them, they know not what they do is an extreme understatement.

Defending equal rights for all is not "supporting the wealthy." Believe it or not, the wealthy have the same rights as everyone else. They aren't criminals. the wealthy have no power other than the ability to spend money. Government has guns that it can use to take away every dime the wealthy earn.

Who should we be afraid of?

In a democracy the government is of, by, for we, the people. Should we be afraid of a majority of us? Only if a majority have been rendered supportive of actions hostile to our future interests. Could happen.

Business runs by one rule only. Make more money regardless of the cost to others. There are two critical conditions that maintain that in service of we, the people.

Our ability to regulate.

Competition in free markets.

It's clearly in the service of, make more money regardless of the cost to others, that businesses must be hostile to competition. The less competition, the more money to be made.

Regulation must offset that.

So, there is nothing to fear from a democracy and regulated businesses with robust competition.

 

[PMZ]

Wrong.

In capitalism, people vote with their pocketbook. It's a true democracy because the majority make the decision of who wins and who fails. In capitalism, the minority are still free to "vote" their own picketbooks as they choose.

A democracy in government is a tyranny of the majority. The minority have no freedom to chose anything. Then when as you say the "democracy" manages the capitalism, they remove the choice of the minority. Like obamacare. And then you have no capitalism.

Again, why does the word Marxist bother you? You are clearly that.

Can you even comprehend that capitalism is an economic system and democracy is a decision making strategy? Is that completely beyond your capability?

That's actually wrong. Capitalism is also a decision making system. It's the system were individuals make the decisions rather then some bureaucrat 2000 miles away.

Do you really think that businesses are exempt from our laws?

I've never met anyone who knows less about their country.

Whoever claimed businesses were exempt from the law other then Marxists like you?

Fuck ups like you.

 

[zeke]

No, the question is "who" holds them accountable for growth. I say the people they work for, the shareholders, you say that politicians should have ubiquitous power over them and can hold them to any standard they want.

And Madoff had nothing to do with "growth" he committed fraud.

Do you understand that, except for IPOs, equity trading is merely a transaction whereby the previous owner is betting pessimistically and the potential future owner is betting optimistically and they agree on a price? The corporation is not involved. Calling shareholders, ''owners'' is delusional. And thinking that they have any real stake in the success of the corporation is even more so. It's all a giant Ponzi scheme that only works if the economy is growing.

CEOs love to advertise that they are accountable to shareholders and overseen by a BOD but it's all a puppet show. They are not.

While there have been some very capable people in the right place at the right time it's getting to be a small percentage of the total. Many are merely pirates looting and plundering the wealth creators, the workers.

Right out of the Communist manifesto. And yet you give politicians a pass. LOL.

You know nothing about capitalism or how corporations operate. Zero. What you see is what you want to see. The US corporations have kicked ass, it's a model that works. It's politicians who are bringing it all down on us. The liberal explanation for every failed liberal policy is we didn't do it enough. Oh, and blame the victim. Your manifesto is full of that.

Sounds like PMZ has a better understanding of the corporate world than maybe you.

You know why the stock market is booming? It's a reason you rethugs have had correct and should be stopped. Quantitative Easing is fueling the Ponzi scheme. Not individual stock buyers but institutional buyers playing with our play money.

It will stop sooner or later but it won't be pretty when it does.

 

[PMZ]

I believe it was Kevin Phillips who wrote "The Emerging Republican majority" who also wrote in "Arrogant Capital" that history has shown the financialization of countries is their downfall. Said bankers get rich dealing in government debt and push politicians NOT to pay down debt. This I think is true reason Republican politicians dont want to raise taxes on the rich...because they are water- carriers for those who get rich off of dealing with government debt.

The bankers who downgraded the US debt and their primary justification was deficits and debt as a percent of GDP? The only reason liberalism exists is that you don't test your rhetoric against empirical data. If you did, liberalism would go the way of the dodo bird.

The bankers aren't the problem. House Republicans are.

 

[Spiderman]

Do you understand that, except for IPOs, equity trading is merely a transaction whereby the previous owner is betting pessimistically and the potential future owner is betting optimistically and they agree on a price? The corporation is not involved. Calling shareholders, ''owners'' is delusional. And thinking that they have any real stake in the success of the corporation is even more so. It's all a giant Ponzi scheme that only works if the economy is growing.

CEOs love to advertise that they are accountable to shareholders and overseen by a BOD but it's all a puppet show. They are not.

While there have been some very capable people in the right place at the right time it's getting to be a small percentage of the total. Many are merely pirates looting and plundering the wealth creators, the workers.

Right out of the Communist manifesto. And yet you give politicians a pass. LOL.

You know nothing about capitalism or how corporations operate. Zero. What you see is what you want to see. The US corporations have kicked ass, it's a model that works. It's politicians who are bringing it all down on us. The liberal explanation for every failed liberal policy is we didn't do it enough. Oh, and blame the victim. Your manifesto is full of that.

Sounds like PMZ has a better understanding of the corporate world than maybe you.

You know why the stock market is booming? It's a reason you rethugs have had correct and should be stopped. Quantitative Easing is fueling the Ponzi scheme. Not individual stock buyers but institutional buyers playing with our play money.

It will stop sooner or later but it won't be pretty when it does.

The stock market is booming as you say because the government via the fed is artificially holding interest rates near zero and the only place to get any return at all on your money is the stock market. Why do you think that when there is talk of raising interest rates the market hiccups?

 

[PMZ]

Do you understand that, except for IPOs, equity trading is merely a transaction whereby the previous owner is betting pessimistically and the potential future owner is betting optimistically and they agree on a price? The corporation is not involved. Calling shareholders, ''owners'' is delusional. And thinking that they have any real stake in the success of the corporation is even more so. It's all a giant Ponzi scheme that only works if the economy is growing.

CEOs love to advertise that they are accountable to shareholders and overseen by a BOD but it's all a puppet show. They are not.

While there have been some very capable people in the right place at the right time it's getting to be a small percentage of the total. Many are merely pirates looting and plundering the wealth creators, the workers.

Right out of the Communist manifesto. And yet you give politicians a pass. LOL.

You know nothing about capitalism or how corporations operate. Zero. What you see is what you want to see. The US corporations have kicked ass, it's a model that works. It's politicians who are bringing it all down on us. The liberal explanation for every failed liberal policy is we didn't do it enough. Oh, and blame the victim. Your manifesto is full of that.

Sounds like PMZ has a better understanding of the corporate world than maybe you.

You know why the stock market is booming? It's a reason you rethugs have had correct and should be stopped. Quantitative Easing is fueling the Ponzi scheme. Not individual stock buyers but institutional buyers playing with our play money.

It will stop sooner or later but it won't be pretty when it does.

The question is, where's the floor of the Great Recession? Without stimulus, how far would our GDP and revenue drop and what would that do to our debt and our future?

 

[PMZ]

From the beginning of our war on recession it has been acknowledged by macroeconomic experts that the crucial issue is timing. When to remove the patient from life support. We know the consequences from Bush of over stimulation. We know from 2008 the consequences of too little.

It's going to be interesting to witness the transition and how smart or dumb it makes us look.

 

[dcraelin]

I believe it was Kevin Phillips who wrote "The Emerging Republican majority" who also wrote in "Arrogant Capital" that history has shown the financialization of countries is their downfall. Said bankers get rich dealing in government debt and push politicians NOT to pay down debt. This I think is true reason Republican politicians dont want to raise taxes on the rich...because they are water- carriers for those who get rich off of dealing with government debt.

ROFL! The idea that any politician has any desire to pay down the debt is utterly hysterical. Were you born yesterday?

did you read the post? I think we agree, politicians dont want to pay down debt. Kevin Phillip's "Arrogant Capital" is a good book and explains what I'm trying to say better.

 

[Gadawg73]

The government can only put a floor under recession by making up the spending of unemployed workers. And continuing to employ their workers.

Other than that, it's product developers that create economic growth.

Hey now, there is some truth to that.
So where is that growth in developing products?
Horse and buggies or technical applications that require an educated work force that is trained for what the market DEMANDS?
We spend too much time and money appeasing the uneducated masses that time has passed by bitching about low skilled jobs gone to Timbuktu.

What should we do about the ''uneducated masses''?

How about, educate them.

When can you start?

 

[RKMBrown]

Right out of the Communist manifesto. And yet you give politicians a pass. LOL.

You know nothing about capitalism or how corporations operate. Zero. What you see is what you want to see. The US corporations have kicked ass, it's a model that works. It's politicians who are bringing it all down on us. The liberal explanation for every failed liberal policy is we didn't do it enough. Oh, and blame the victim. Your manifesto is full of that.

Sounds like PMZ has a better understanding of the corporate world than maybe you.

You know why the stock market is booming? It's a reason you rethugs have had correct and should be stopped. Quantitative Easing is fueling the Ponzi scheme. Not individual stock buyers but institutional buyers playing with our play money.

It will stop sooner or later but it won't be pretty when it does.

The stock market is booming as you say because the government via the fed is artificially holding interest rates near zero and the only place to get any return at all on your money is the stock market. Why do you think that when there is talk of raising interest rates the market hiccups?

Well that and they are printing new bills by the billions every day and that is making the dollar worth-less thus requiring more dollars to buy tangible goods like stocks & commodities.

 

[Bern80]

Fox News says the we shouldn't have bailed out Detroit Auto. That opinion seems to have no basis other than trying to drag popular opinion of our government to new lows.

In truth there is only one way to get the remaining way out of the valley of Bush. GDP. Growth. The business of business. That's what will pay the bills that his policies left in their wake.

Detroit Auto is part of that solution.

More 'news' from Fox. '' You advocate for crap like a living wage.''

How radical. Pay people enough to live on so they don't need welfare. Create jobs that put people into taxable income. How are companies going to do that and pay executives as royalty?

''Look at the mess we're already seeing with Obamacare.''

The mess? System start up problems? How many years of updates does a new windows or IOS take before they're running right?

Empowering consumers with competitive information? How radical is that? Making insurance companies compete above board. Simply communistic.

The only thing that the present GOP has to offer is very well done propaganda.

They will either dump dixiecrats and end propaganda or go extinct.

You can't have it both ways. You can't insist we stop crony capitalism and government doing favors for big business while saying the biggest favor of all was a good idea.

FOX news as nothing to do with the idea that a government mandated living wage is a bad idea. That isn't how compensation works. I've lost count how many liberals need explained to them an employer doesn't compensate you based on what you need. They compensate you based on your market value because labor is commodity like everything else, including health care.

Obamacare? Again another example of what poor problem solvers libs are. You want business to go back to doing business growing and being accountable to the customer. Look no further than Obamacare as to why government being in business doesn't work. Again the options are either you are Obama are stupid or is a liar. Because most people opposed to Obamacare saw this coming. Essentially we are lessening the cost of health care for a few at the expense of many. And if this were a business that you are so high on being about customer service, Sebelius would long since have been fired for this disastrous role out. That's why government solutions don't work. There's no accountability.

 

[dcraelin]

That isn't how compensation works. I've lost count how many liberals need explained to them an employer doesn't compensate you based on what you need. They compensate you based on your market value because labor is commodity like everything else, including health care.

This is exactly the reason I'm not against taxing the rich more on their last dollars, as Republican Ike did at a rate of 91%. Compensation is a function of supply and demand, for the rich as well as laborers.

 

[Spiderman]

That isn't how compensation works. I've lost count how many liberals need explained to them an employer doesn't compensate you based on what you need. They compensate you based on your market value because labor is commodity like everything else, including health care.

This is exactly the reason I'm not against taxing the rich more on their last dollars, as Republican Ike did at a rate of 91%. Compensation is a function of supply and demand, for the rich as well as laborers.

As long as you realize that IKE taxed even the lowest brackets at a higher percentage than we do today and you're fine with it.

I'm of the mind that income should be taxed like any other thing we tax.

You don't pay less tax on the gas you use to get to work and more on the gas used to drive to the strip clubs do you?

The idea that your last dollar earned is somehow less yours than the first dollar earned is ridiculous.

 

[PMZ]

Sounds like PMZ has a better understanding of the corporate world than maybe you.

You know why the stock market is booming? It's a reason you rethugs have had correct and should be stopped. Quantitative Easing is fueling the Ponzi scheme. Not individual stock buyers but institutional buyers playing with our play money.

It will stop sooner or later but it won't be pretty when it does.

The stock market is booming as you say because the government via the fed is artificially holding interest rates near zero and the only place to get any return at all on your money is the stock market. Why do you think that when there is talk of raising interest rates the market hiccups?

Well that and they are printing new bills by the billions every day and that is making the dollar worth-less thus requiring more dollars to buy tangible goods like stocks & commodities.

I guess that it would have been smarter of us not to have created the Great Recession.

 

[PMZ]

That isn't how compensation works. I've lost count how many liberals need explained to them an employer doesn't compensate you based on what you need. They compensate you based on your market value because labor is commodity like everything else, including health care.

This is exactly the reason I'm not against taxing the rich more on their last dollars, as Republican Ike did at a rate of 91%. Compensation is a function of supply and demand, for the rich as well as laborers.

As long as you realize that IKE taxed even the lowest brackets at a higher percentage than we do today and you're fine with it.

I'm of the mind that income should be taxed like any other thing we tax.

You don't pay less tax on the gas you use to get to work and more on the gas used to drive to the strip clubs do you?

The idea that your last dollar earned is somehow less yours than the first dollar earned is ridiculous.

More lust for and pursuit after that last 15% of our wealth that 80% of Americans have to share.

How dare they deprive the 20% with the other 85% of that final victory for plutocracy.

 

[RKMBrown]

The stock market is booming as you say because the government via the fed is artificially holding interest rates near zero and the only place to get any return at all on your money is the stock market. Why do you think that when there is talk of raising interest rates the market hiccups?

Well that and they are printing new bills by the billions every day and that is making the dollar worth-less thus requiring more dollars to buy tangible goods like stocks & commodities.

I guess that it would have been smarter of us not to have created the Great Recession.

What made the recession "great" was the policy of taking money from hard working successful people and redistributing it to failed banks and corporations that should have been forced to go through bankruptcy but instead were given bonuses. To big to fail... was complete BS.

 

[PMZ]

Fox News says the we shouldn't have bailed out Detroit Auto. That opinion seems to have no basis other than trying to drag popular opinion of our government to new lows.

In truth there is only one way to get the remaining way out of the valley of Bush. GDP. Growth. The business of business. That's what will pay the bills that his policies left in their wake.

Detroit Auto is part of that solution.

More 'news' from Fox. '' You advocate for crap like a living wage.''

How radical. Pay people enough to live on so they don't need welfare. Create jobs that put people into taxable income. How are companies going to do that and pay executives as royalty?

''Look at the mess we're already seeing with Obamacare.''

The mess? System start up problems? How many years of updates does a new windows or IOS take before they're running right?

Empowering consumers with competitive information? How radical is that? Making insurance companies compete above board. Simply communistic.

The only thing that the present GOP has to offer is very well done propaganda.

They will either dump dixiecrats and end propaganda or go extinct.

You can't have it both ways. You can't insist we stop crony capitalism and government doing favors for big business while saying the biggest favor of all was a good idea.

FOX news as nothing to do with the idea that a government mandated living wage is a bad idea. That isn't how compensation works. I've lost count how many liberals need explained to them an employer doesn't compensate you based on what you need. They compensate you based on your market value because labor is commodity like everything else, including health care.

Obamacare? Again another example of what poor problem solvers libs are. You want business to go back to doing business growing and being accountable to the customer. Look no further than Obamacare as to why government being in business doesn't work. Again the options are either you are Obama are stupid or is a liar. Because most people opposed to Obamacare saw this coming. Essentially we are lessening the cost of health care for a few at the expense of many. And if this were a business that you are so high on being about customer service, Sebelius would long since have been fired for this disastrous role out. That's why government solutions don't work. There's no accountability.

You're now the global expert on how compensation works?

You're the one that wants it both ways. You have to choose between paying all full time workers a living wage plus enough to get them on the tax roles or accept the current situation. People aren't going to voluntarily die on the street to pay for your Rolls.

 

[PMZ]

That isn't how compensation works. I've lost count how many liberals need explained to them an employer doesn't compensate you based on what you need. They compensate you based on your market value because labor is commodity like everything else, including health care.

This is exactly the reason I'm not against taxing the rich more on their last dollars, as Republican Ike did at a rate of 91%. Compensation is a function of supply and demand, for the rich as well as laborers.

As long as you realize that IKE taxed even the lowest brackets at a higher percentage than we do today and you're fine with it.

I'm of the mind that income should be taxed like any other thing we tax.

You don't pay less tax on the gas you use to get to work and more on the gas used to drive to the strip clubs do you?

The idea that your last dollar earned is somehow less yours than the first dollar earned is ridiculous.

When compensation gets fixed, and when we stop rewarding having wealth over creating wealth, all of these problems go away.

 

[Spiderman]

This is exactly the reason I'm not against taxing the rich more on their last dollars, as Republican Ike did at a rate of 91%. Compensation is a function of supply and demand, for the rich as well as laborers.

As long as you realize that IKE taxed even the lowest brackets at a higher percentage than we do today and you're fine with it.

I'm of the mind that income should be taxed like any other thing we tax.

You don't pay less tax on the gas you use to get to work and more on the gas used to drive to the strip clubs do you?

The idea that your last dollar earned is somehow less yours than the first dollar earned is ridiculous.

More lust for and pursuit after that last 15% of our wealth that 80% of Americans have to share.

How dare they deprive the 20% with the other 85% of that final victory for plutocracy.

How is the last dollar you earn any different from the first?

It's not.

And when you say "our wealth" do you meant the money that other people earned or the money you earned?

And FYI income is not wealth. Net worth is wealth.

 

[PMZ]

As long as you realize that IKE taxed even the lowest brackets at a higher percentage than we do today and you're fine with it.

I'm of the mind that income should be taxed like any other thing we tax.

You don't pay less tax on the gas you use to get to work and more on the gas used to drive to the strip clubs do you?

The idea that your last dollar earned is somehow less yours than the first dollar earned is ridiculous.

More lust for and pursuit after that last 15% of our wealth that 80% of Americans have to share.

How dare they deprive the 20% with the other 85% of that final victory for plutocracy.

How is the last dollar you earn any different from the first?

It's not.

And when you say "our wealth" do you meant the money that other people earned or the money you earned?

And FYI income is not wealth. Net worth is wealth.

We could apply the higher rate to all income.

But instead we assume that the first dollar is spent on the most essential, and the last on the most frivolous. Some people don't even get out of the essential category while some just can't buy enough frivolity to spend the wealth that they have.