Questions on Decriminalization/Legalization movement

[KevinWestern]

The benefit from granting people like you the freedom to smoke a joint doesn't outweigh the harm caused to society by mentally ill people smoking. Besides smoking pot is bad for everyone. Yes it does have a few medicinal purposes, and should be used in those rare circumstances, but by in large it's harmful to everyone.

A few comments about this. It’s not just about “me smoking” it’s also about:

1.) Not throwing millions of non violent drug offenders – including mothers, fathers - in jail every year, ruining lives/families for smoking a plant
2.) Not wasting $40 billion in law-enforcement policing marijuana. Have them police something worthwhile with their time.
3.) Not giving cartels untold power, fueling violence by prohibiting marijuana. Where did all the alcohol cartels go, sir?
4.) Taking jobs from Mexico and bringing them to the US in a brand new vibrant industry that will fuel the economy and create jobs

So you’re willing to ignore ALL of those points in the name of preventing “metal psycho stabbing sprees”? Seriously, when was the last time someone went on a stabbing spree and it was proven - without a doubt - that marijuana was the cause? How frequent does this occur? Do you know anyone who's been stabbed by a marijuana smoking schizophrenic?

I'm talking about reality here, Rocko. Real life stuff, like the very real statistic of police spending millions of hours with paperwork around the 750,000 marijuana arrests last year. Real life.

Let's get real here buddy!

 

[Lonestar_logic]

But, lonestar is the "addictiveness" of something generally the key reason for making it illegal? For locking people up because they used it?

I don't think so, and I think that method of approach is faulty and would most definitely be met with numerous contradictions if it were to be applied to all laws.

Coffee can be highly addictive, sex can be highly addictive, video games can be highly addictive, tobacco can be highly addictive, alcohol can be highly addictive, mayonnaise can be highly addictive, etc.

Get my point?

I'm not arguing either way. I was just pointing out the fact that there are some people that say it is addictive.

I don't think there is an argument that it can be psychologically addictive to some people, is there?

Pogo, to whom my response was directed at made the comment that pot wasn't addictive. I simply showed that some people disagreed with his opinion. People that probably know a little more about it than he does.

 

[Rocko]

The benefit from granting people like you the freedom to smoke a joint doesn't outweigh the harm caused to society by mentally ill people smoking. Besides smoking pot is bad for everyone. Yes it does have a few medicinal purposes, and should be used in those rare circumstances, but by in large it's harmful to everyone.

A few comments about this. It’s not just about “me smoking” it’s also about:

1.) Not throwing millions of non violent drug offenders – including mothers, fathers - in jail every year, ruining lives/families for smoking a plant
2.) Not wasting $40 billion in law-enforcement policing marijuana. Have them police something worthwhile with their time.
3.) Not giving cartels untold power, fueling violence by prohibiting marijuana. Where did all the alcohol cartels go, sir?
4.) Taking jobs from Mexico and bringing them to the US in a brand new vibrant industry that will fuel the economy and create jobs

So you’re willing to ignore ALL of those points in the name of preventing “metal psycho stabbing sprees”? Seriously, when was the last time someone went on a stabbing spree and it was proven - without a doubt - that marijuana was the cause? How frequent does this occur? Do you know anyone who's been stabbed by a marijuana smoking schizophrenic?

I'm talking about reality here, Rocko. Real life stuff, like the very real statistic of police spending millions of hours with paperwork around the 750,000 marijuana arrests last year. Real life.

Let's get real here buddy!

There has to be a price paid for breaking the law.

It's not just about stabbing sprees, although more incidents would occur if pot was decriminalized/made legal. I personally don't know anyone harmed by schizophrenic, but I'm sure such cases exist. What about the burden on society from all the pot related car accidents? Don't you think legalizing pot lead to more of them?

I didn't even go into the degeneration of our youth...

 

[BlindBoo]

I'm not arguing either way. I was just pointing out the fact that there are some people that say it is addictive.

I don't think there is an argument that it can be psychologically addictive to some people, is there?

Pogo, to whom my response was directed at made the comment that pot wasn't addictive. I simply showed that some people disagreed with his opinion. People that probably know a little more about it than he does.

But there is a big difference between a physical drug addiction, like to heroin or alcohol and a psychological one.

 

[MikeK]

Cannabis is not a drug, nor is it addictive. It is deliberately mischaracterized by the DEA.

Simple answer: government needs to stop lying about it.

Some would disagree.

Psychology Today:

Even though the physiological effects of cannabis withdrawal are generally mild, it is not correct to conclude that marijuana is not addictive, because being addicted to something is more than simply being physically dependent on a drug and experiencing physiological effects if the drug is stopped suddenly. “Addiction” refers to behaviors that are compulsive, partially out of control or worse, and often escalating in severity and intensity.

National Institute on Drug Abuse

Contrary to common belief, marijuana is addictive. Estimates from research suggest that about 9 percent of users become addicted to marijuana; this number increases among those who start young (to about 17 percent, or 1 in 6) and among people who use marijuana daily (to 25-50 percent).

Because an article appears in Psychology Today is no reason to assume the opinion expressed is based on empirical evidence or professional consensus. My late wife was a Clinical Psychologist who strenuously disagreed with the notion that marijuana is addictive in the accepted sense of the word. Her opinion was based on the premise that addiction to a substance is the result of certain properties of that substance imparting a change in specific neurological processes, i.e., a measurable, identifiable, physical alteration in a specific function of the brain. Marijuana is not known to produce any such effect. (See: Marijuana, The Forbidden Medicine, by Dr. Lester Grinspoon, MD, PhD, Professor of Psychiatric Medicine, Harvard Medical School.

Marijuana can induce psychological habituation, as can any pleasure-inducing experience (e.g., chocolate) which is enjoyed on a regular basis. The intensity of this effect varies from individual to individual, ranging from moderate to that of the recognized addictive personality syndrome which manifests as imaginary withdrawal symptoms when deprived and includes a tormenting compulsion to indulge in the desired experience.

The rational motivation for using marijuana is to occasionally impart a transitory experience of mind-expanding, tranquil euphoria. Using marijuana frequently, or constantly, for the purpose of coping with life is not rational and will result in some degree of psychological morbidity. But no alteration to normal cerebral process has occurred.

 

[KevinWestern]

It's not just about stabbing sprees, although more incidents would occur if pot was decriminalized/made legal. I personally don't know anyone harmed by schizophrenic, but I'm sure such cases exist.

But stabbing sprees were your main example up to this point. At least you agree that it's a non-issue (because neither you nor I, nor anyone I know has ever heard of this occurring, lol). We're getting somewhere..

What about the burden on society from all the pot related car accidents? Don't you think legalizing pot lead to more of them?

If the # of accidents is to be our criteria on whether or not a substance should be illegal, are you willing to prohibit alcohol as well given that it is responsible for tens of thousands of deaths - far more than marijuana - each year from people behind the wheel?

If you're consistent, I can respect that.

 

[FA_Q2]

I think all drugs should be legal, so as you said from that perspective we have no disagreement.

Just on the use of pot though, I would agree that for people who truly only smoke it on a Friday night with friends instead of drinking, I don't see a difference. However, it's a poor analogy to your examples of books, biking, ... For regular pot users, they are using pot to retard their natural mental development. I see people who use pot and say it's the same, but they smoke it in the morning and during the day on weekdays. Only serious alcoholics do that. Other than true, social pot smokers, I think pot smokers are deluding themselves.

However, again, that is not an appropriate choice for government any more than the decision to have cake and ice cream for dinner.

Yes, we fully agree on how to approach this from a Governmental perspective - which is the most important piece - and now we're just into a discussion of opinions. Totally get that.

What makes you so sure that regular pot users are "retarding their natural mental development"? Ideally none of us should have to use drugs to reach a heightened sense of awareness (ie the "end game"), however I think it's a good tool to get people thinking in the right direction in many respects.

Carl Sagan - an American astrophysicist - used to swear by the drug to help cultivate his mind to come up with new "outside the box" theories that ended up revolutionizing the way we now think about the universe. I mean, for him it was a tool to (again) open up his mind a bit. That's not retarding mental development is it?

You know you can take the things you learn while on the drug and USE it the next time while you're sober. That's advancing mental development.

Again, do some people become couch potatoes? Sure. But that's blame to be rested upon the person and not the drug. You can take a hammer and build a house, or you can take a hammer and smash a bunch of store windows with it; the hammer is neutral while the wielder of the hammer is responsible .

.

I would interject that the VAST majority of pot smokers I have met have not been ‘enlightened’ by use of the drug. There are a few examples of such (though this is normally a side effect of LSD and not pot) but that is an outlier and not the average use.

In my experience, pot does one thing and that is make a temporary moron. That is not a reason to illegalize it but I find your tact in this particular part of the debate counterproductive. Pot should not be legal because of its perceived good that it accomplishes. Going down that road give the illegal crowd to much power because pot does very little ‘good.’ It should be legalized simply because the government has no right to stop me from ingesting a benign substance that does nothing more than get me high. What I chose to do with my body is my own right. There is nothing there for the illegal crowd to gain purchase on which is why they have universally clung to lies and extreme cases to try and justify their chosen big daddy government oversight.

 

[FA_Q2]

I'm not sure the difference in those scenarios was really pot versus alcohol though

True, but...

I won't speak for all people, but must say (however) that via my own personal experiences with the two is that I generally will do and say many more things that I will "regret" later while drinking. I would like to believe that people will tend to agree with me on this.

Anyone else?

Absolutely. I wouldn’t say that pot makes me more aware of anything though.

In all honesty, pot simply makes you to damn lazy to get in trouble. Who ever wanted to fight while high on pot?

Alcohol on the other hand – nothing beats a good mosh pit while drunk

 

[FA_Q2]

It doesn't make everyone psychotic, but it has been known to trigger psychotic episodes in people with mental disorders. Numerous studies have shown that.

water can trigger a psychotic episode in SOME people.

Wanna start a "war on water"???

That's absurd! Link please?

There's an interesting study on water to come out recently. It was concluded that all people need to drink water to survive. Go figure. The inconvenient truth for some of the potheads here is there is a proven link between psychosis and pot, in particularly regarding people suffering from schizophrenia. Do some research on the subject. As a matter of fact is very possible that pot contributed to the actions of jared loughner and many more like him.

That is grounds for a warning label and nothing more. Period.

Again, and has been stated a thousand times over, booze is FAR more likely to cause harm and FAR more likely to ‘assist’ the user in a violent action yet that substance is perfectly legal. Why is that?
Because we are a FREE people and that entails taking responsibility for your actions but NOT having the government preemptively remove your rights ‘for your own good.’ You have continually come back to the EXTREME case because there is no rational reason for laws against pot. You have to dig really deep into possible links with psychosis in order to attempt a justification. It falls apart though when other far more harmful substances are currently legal including opioids and booze. The medications that are given to psychotic patients are actually far more likely to cause an episode than pot ever will be. Just observe a psychotic patient before the drug doses are hammered out – the effects are rather insane.

 

[thanatos144]

So government should make everyone's choices for them?

BTW, have you noticed that even high school kids can get all the pot they want? Have you notice we're funding organized crime? Have you seen what we've done to endlessly destabalize countries like Columbia and Afghanistan? Is there some point where in the effort to make people's choices for them, we realize the cost of making people's choices of them is incredibly high, and then doesn't even work?

Have you noticed people can murder people too? Guess we better make that legal

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so why are you avoiding my simple little question i asked you a while back?...

When did you stop beating your wife?

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[thanatos144]

Of course pot is addictive! If it wasn't people wouldn't be smoking it all their fucking lives! I can't believe people don't see this. Maybe if you all put down the bong you will be able to think.

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[FA_Q2]

Have you noticed people can murder people too? Guess we better make that legal

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so why are you avoiding my simple little question i asked you a while back?...

When did you stop beating your wife?

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I have never beat my wife or any woman in my life.

Now, your question has been answered, how about answering his....

 

[thanatos144]

so why are you avoiding my simple little question i asked you a while back?...

When did you stop beating your wife?

tapatalk post

I have never beat my wife or any woman in my life.

Now, your question has been answered, how about answering his....

Maybe if you were not high you would get it


tapatalk post

 

[FA_Q2]

When did you stop beating your wife?

tapatalk post

I have never beat my wife or any woman in my life.

Now, your question has been answered, how about answering his....

Maybe if you were not high you would get it


tapatalk post

Being AD i cannot get high on anything - even many leagal substances so do try again.

More importantly, I DO get it. the problem is that you failed because his question was not one that required an admittance to a false premise to answer. That was your assumption with that asinine retort, was it not?

Even then, I can successfully answer the question by dispelling the false premise out the gate. That was extremely easy and also blatantly obvious. YOU would have gotten that if you were intelligent enough to understand why I answered your question in the manner that I did.

Now, back to that point that you keep avoiding....

 

[thanatos144]

I have never beat my wife or any woman in my life.

Now, your question has been answered, how about answering his....

Maybe if you were not high you would get it


tapatalk post

Being AD i cannot get high on anything - even many leagal substances so do try again.

More importantly, I DO get it. the problem is that you failed because his question was not one that required an admittance to a false premise to answer. That was your assumption with that asinine retort, was it not?

Even then, I can successfully answer the question by dispelling the false premise out the gate. That was extremely easy and also blatantly obvious. YOU would have gotten that if you were intelligent enough to understand why I answered your question in the manner that I did.

Now, back to that point that you keep avoiding....

Lol Bullshit

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[kaz]

Have you noticed people can murder people too? Guess we better make that legal

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so why are you avoiding my simple little question i asked you a while back?...

When did you stop beating your wife?

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You're evading my question also, thanatos. Do you seriously not grasp the difference between someone harming themselves and someone harming someone else? There no beating your wife component in that, there's only an are you seriously that clueless component to that.

Resume evading.

 

[KevinWestern]

I would interject that the VAST majority of pot smokers I have met have not been ‘enlightened’ by use of the drug. There are a few examples of such (though this is normally a side effect of LSD and not pot) but that is an outlier and not the average use.

In my experience, pot does one thing and that is make a temporary moron. That is not a reason to illegalize it but I find your tact in this particular part of the debate counterproductive. Pot should not be legal because of its perceived good that it accomplishes. Going down that road give the illegal crowd to much power because pot does very little ‘good.’ It should be legalized simply because the government has no right to stop me from ingesting a benign substance that does nothing more than get me high. What I chose to do with my body is my own right. There is nothing there for the illegal crowd to gain purchase on which is why they have universally clung to lies and extreme cases to try and justify their chosen big daddy government oversight.

I agree in that it's silly to use the "pot's good" argument when debating the removal of prohibition. That argument - much like you said - is irrelevant because things don't need to be "beneficial to society" to be legal. If that were the case every single reality TV show would be outlawed, and a great deal of popular music as well. Kaz and I were just discussing the "benefits" of marijuana as a side convo.

With that said, I can't speak for everyone but I think the drug can be beneficial if you use it correctly. You've got to realize that a lot of people who smoke and are successful use the drug somewhat covertly - in the comfort of their home - and (wisely) do not advertise it due to many of the negative stigmas hanging out there right now. I think that's an important thing to remember.

 

[Pogo]

It doesn't make everyone psychotic, but it has been known to trigger psychotic episodes in people with mental disorders. Numerous studies have shown that.

water can trigger a psychotic episode in SOME people.

Wanna start a "war on water"???

That's absurd! Link please?

There's an interesting study on water to come out recently. It was concluded that all people need to drink water to survive. Go figure. The inconvenient truth for some of the potheads here is there is a proven link between psychosis and pot, in particularly regarding people suffering from schizophrenia. Do some research on the subject. As a matter of fact is very possible that pot contributed to the actions of jared loughner and many more like him.

And.. HOW is that "possible"? Explain.

 

[Pogo]

I have never beat my wife or any woman in my life.

Now, your question has been answered, how about answering his....

Maybe if you were not high you would get it


tapatalk post

Being AD i cannot get high on anything - even many leagal substances so do try again.

You haven't been high in over two thousand years?

 

[MikeK]

Of course pot is addictive! If it wasn't people wouldn't be smoking it all their fucking lives! I can't believe people don't see this. Maybe if you all put down the bong you will be able to think.

Are salt and pepper addictive? Is sugar addictive? Are milk and butter addictive?

Also, smoking marijuana is not the only way to enjoy it, nor is the best way. And if marijuana is legalized you will soon see plentiful evidence of that. Ingesting THC via the digestive system rather than via the lungs produces a less intense but more euphoric and much longer-lasting effect.

Edible marijuana products are presently available everywhere they are legal, such as medical marijuana dispensaries. In fact, if marijuana were legal smoking it would eventually be the least common means of enjoying it.

You should know that humans are not the only animals who enjoy the effects of marijuana. Here is just one example: How do i protect my outdoor grow from deer?