Refute This.

Lutroo

Senior Member
May 29, 2016
884
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Something to get you all thinking. First, a few definitions

Information: the attribute inherent in and communicated by one of two or more alternative sequences or arrangements of something (as nucleotides in DNA or binary digits in a computer program) that produce specific effects

Intelligence: Let's keep it simple. Intelligence is required in order to understand or comprehend something. Most importantly, intelligence is required for the act of creation. By creation, I'm referring to the willful act of ordering something, such as words, into a meaningful sentence. Another example would be the creation of a song or a painting.

Does anyone have a problem with either of these definitions? If not, I'll move on.

It is my contention that information, as defined above, is the result of a intelligent mind. There is no known natural phenomenon that is capable of creating meaningful information. Information exists only as the product of intelligence.

Moving on. DNA fits the definition of information as defined above. If you disagree, then please inform us all what part of the definition I gave is not valid for DNA. It contains a sequence of molecules that produce specific effects. So it meets the requirement of information. Case closed.

Now, let's discuss just what information is. We already defined it, but what is it made of? The answer is that it is made of nothing. That's right. Information has no mass or energy. It exists independent of matter and energy.

To prove this point, you can grab a stick and write something in the sand. What do you have then? You have words, written in the sand. These words contain information. Has the number of particles of sand changed? Are the particles more energetic? Has the act of writing in this sand added any mass or energy? No.

The same information you wrote in the sand can also be transmitted by other mediums, such as radio waves, written on a piece of paper or sent by smoke signals. The point I'm trying to make is that the medium used is not important. It is simply used to convey the information. It is not the information itself.

The reason I mention this is because some would claim that the information in DNA is simply the result of chemical reactions. Well, I believe I just shot down that argument. If you disagree, go back to the top and start reading again.

So what do we have here?

I have defined information and intelligence.
I have shown that information can only result from the creative act of a intelligent mind.
I have shown that DNA contains information.

So, my question to you is this. Where did the information in DNA come from? I believe that there is only one rational explanation, no matter how abhorrent it may be to you.

Can anyone refute any of this?
 
Something to get you all thinking. First, a few definitions

Information: the attribute inherent in and communicated by one of two or more alternative sequences or arrangements of something (as nucleotides in DNA or binary digits in a computer program) that produce specific effects

Intelligence: Let's keep it simple. Intelligence is required in order to understand or comprehend something. Most importantly, intelligence is required for the act of creation. By creation, I'm referring to the willful act of ordering something, such as words, into a meaningful sentence. Another example would be the creation of a song or a painting.

Does anyone have a problem with either of these definitions? If not, I'll move on.

It is my contention that information, as defined above, is the result of a intelligent mind. There is no known natural phenomenon that is capable of creating meaningful information. Information exists only as the product of intelligence.

Moving on. DNA fits the definition of information as defined above. If you disagree, then please inform us all what part of the definition I gave is not valid for DNA. It contains a sequence of molecules that produce specific effects. So it meets the requirement of information. Case closed.

Now, let's discuss just what information is. We already defined it, but what is it made of? The answer is that it is made of nothing. That's right. Information has no mass or energy. It exists independent of matter and energy.

To prove this point, you can grab a stick and write something in the sand. What do you have then? You have words, written in the sand. These words contain information. Has the number of particles of sand changed? Are the particles more energetic? Has the act of writing in this sand added any mass or energy? No.

The same information you wrote in the sand can also be transmitted by other mediums, such as radio waves, written on a piece of paper or sent by smoke signals. The point I'm trying to make is that the medium used is not important. It is simply used to convey the information. It is not the information itself.

The reason I mention this is because some would claim that the information in DNA is simply the result of chemical reactions. Well, I believe I just shot down that argument. If you disagree, go back to the top and start reading again.

So what do we have here?

I have defined information and intelligence.
I have shown that information can only result from the creative act of a intelligent mind.
I have shown that DNA contains information.

So, my question to you is this. Where did the information in DNA come from? I believe that there is only one rational explanation, no matter how abhorrent it may be to you.

Can anyone refute any of this?
Anyone? Come on. Someone give it a try. What's the matter? Chicken? Surely, there is some super intelligent atheist out there who can show me the error of my ways.
 
images


The universe itself, generally, operates on a defined set of rules that produce specific effects.

*****CHUCKLE*****



:)
 
....Information: the attribute inherent in and communicated by one of two or more alternative sequences or arrangements of something (as nucleotides in DNA or binary digits in a computer program) that produce specific effects...
Not really.
Do, ie, Crystals, or simple multi-atom molecules, or long-chain Non-organic molecules, form because of 'information', or is that their atomic nature and chance?

Lutroo said:
Intelligence: Let's keep it simple. Intelligence is required in order to understand or comprehend something. Most importantly, intelligence is required for the act of creation. By creation, I'm referring to the willful act of ordering something, such as words, into a meaningful sentence. Another example would be the creation of a song or a painting.
We don't know how the universe or life happened. (tho some good ideas on the latter)
You are Spinning the issue by calling what we don't know yet 'Creation', ergo having a creatOR/god.
See next portion.

Lutroo said:
Does anyone have a problem with either of these definitions? If not, I'll move on.
Your premise errors already busted.
Basically your Fallacy is called
God of the gaps - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and
God of the gaps - RationalWiki


Lutroo said:
It is my contention that information, as defined above, is the result of a intelligent mind. There is no known natural phenomenon that is capable of creating meaningful information. Information exists only as the product of intelligence.
Again, you're calling anything we observe now in the natural world 'information', when it's just what IS.
If I threw 1000 pick-up sticks down 1000 times... every time with a different result.. YOU would call any of those resulting 'arrangements', 'information.'

There is NO Discernible order or IQ in the messy universe.
It's 99.999999999999999999% Uninhabitable by us (gawd's ostensible jewel), Galaxies are colliding, stars exploding.. as will ours.
cont'd

Lutroo said:
Moving on. DNA fits the definition of information as defined above. If you disagree, then please inform us all what part of the definition I gave is not valid for DNA. It contains a sequence of molecules that produce specific effects. So it meets the requirement of information. Case closed.
Again, molecular formation, be it organic or inorganic, does not require any intelligence or 'information', merely the natural tendencies of the material. Quadrillions of 6 pointed snowflakes/frozen-water fall every day, because of the molecular charges/tendencies of H2O, not 'intelligence', 'information', nor god.

You must be joking.
You and your word-spinning, trying to prove god. LOL
+
 
Last edited:
I think String Theory will shine a light on these mysteries.
 
I have defined information and intelligence.
I have shown that information can only result from the creative act of a intelligent mind.
I have shown that DNA contains information.
You're second premise is incorrect. You haven't proven that info can only be created by intelligence. You've merely stated it and then challenged US to prove its opposite. That's not proof.
 
I have defined information and intelligence.
I have shown that information can only result from the creative act of a intelligent mind.
I have shown that DNA contains information.
You're second premise is incorrect. You haven't proven that info can only be created by intelligence. You've merely stated it and then challenged US to prove its opposite. That's not proof.
Show me one example of information that is not the result of intelligence. You can't. All of our observations prove that chaos cannot create meaningful information. Only intelligence can.
 
My first wife was an "Information" telephone operator for Southern Bell back in the 1960's, and I guarantee to you that no one would have described her as 'intelligent", "Stacked", yes, but intelligent, no.
 
....Information: the attribute inherent in and communicated by one of two or more alternative sequences or arrangements of something (as nucleotides in DNA or binary digits in a computer program) that produce specific effects...
Not really.
Do, ie, Crystals, or simple multi-atom molecules, or long-chain Non-organic molecules, form because of 'information', or is that their atomic nature and chance?

Lutroo said:
Intelligence: Let's keep it simple. Intelligence is required in order to understand or comprehend something. Most importantly, intelligence is required for the act of creation. By creation, I'm referring to the willful act of ordering something, such as words, into a meaningful sentence. Another example would be the creation of a song or a painting.
We don't know how the universe or life happened. (tho some good ideas on the latter)
You are Spinning the issue by calling what we don't know yet 'Creation', ergo having a creatOR/god.
See next portion.

Lutroo said:
Does anyone have a problem with either of these definitions? If not, I'll move on.
Your premise errors already busted.
Basically your Fallacy is called
God of the gaps - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and
God of the gaps - RationalWiki


Lutroo said:
It is my contention that information, as defined above, is the result of a intelligent mind. There is no known natural phenomenon that is capable of creating meaningful information. Information exists only as the product of intelligence.
Again, you're calling anything we observe now in the natural world 'information', when it's just what IS.
If I threw 1000 pick-up sticks down 1000 times... every time with a different result.. YOU would call any of those resulting 'arrangements', 'information.'

There is NO Discernible order or IQ in the messy universe.
It's 99.999999999999999999% Uninhabitable by us (gawd's ostensible jewel), Galaxies are colliding, stars exploding.. as will ours.
cont'd

Lutroo said:
Moving on. DNA fits the definition of information as defined above. If you disagree, then please inform us all what part of the definition I gave is not valid for DNA. It contains a sequence of molecules that produce specific effects. So it meets the requirement of information. Case closed.
Again, molecular formation, be it organic or inorganic, does not require any intelligence or 'information', merely the natural tendencies of the material. Quadrillions of 6 pointed snowflakes/frozen-water fall every day, because of the molecular charges/tendencies of H2O, not 'intelligence', 'information', nor god.

You must be joking.
You and your word-spinning, trying to prove god. LOL
+
/crickets
 
....Information: the attribute inherent in and communicated by one of two or more alternative sequences or arrangements of something (as nucleotides in DNA or binary digits in a computer program) that produce specific effects...
Not really.
Do, ie, Crystals, or simple multi-atom molecules, or long-chain Non-organic molecules, form because of 'information', or is that their atomic nature and chance?

Lutroo said:
Intelligence: Let's keep it simple. Intelligence is required in order to understand or comprehend something. Most importantly, intelligence is required for the act of creation. By creation, I'm referring to the willful act of ordering something, such as words, into a meaningful sentence. Another example would be the creation of a song or a painting.
We don't know how the universe or life happened. (tho some good ideas on the latter)
You are Spinning the issue by calling what we don't know yet 'Creation', ergo having a creatOR/god.
See next portion.

Lutroo said:
Does anyone have a problem with either of these definitions? If not, I'll move on.
Your premise errors already busted.
Basically your Fallacy is called
God of the gaps - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and
God of the gaps - RationalWiki


Lutroo said:
It is my contention that information, as defined above, is the result of a intelligent mind. There is no known natural phenomenon that is capable of creating meaningful information. Information exists only as the product of intelligence.
Again, you're calling anything we observe now in the natural world 'information', when it's just what IS.
If I threw 1000 pick-up sticks down 1000 times... every time with a different result.. YOU would call any of those resulting 'arrangements', 'information.'

There is NO Discernible order or IQ in the messy universe.
It's 99.999999999999999999% Uninhabitable by us (gawd's ostensible jewel), Galaxies are colliding, stars exploding.. as will ours.
cont'd

Lutroo said:
Moving on. DNA fits the definition of information as defined above. If you disagree, then please inform us all what part of the definition I gave is not valid for DNA. It contains a sequence of molecules that produce specific effects. So it meets the requirement of information. Case closed.
Again, molecular formation, be it organic or inorganic, does not require any intelligence or 'information', merely the natural tendencies of the material. Quadrillions of 6 pointed snowflakes/frozen-water fall every day, because of the molecular charges/tendencies of H2O, not 'intelligence', 'information', nor god.

You must be joking.
You and your word-spinning, trying to prove god. LOL
+
/crickets
Was that intended to advance the discussion? If so, you really need to try harder.
 
Anything that has to do with god can't be confirmed or refuted. Why is this in the science area instead of religion? It is all faith. I believe in Jesus, but I believe he gave us logic and a brain to help ourselfs. I don't really like the idea of being a sheep herder people that blindly do anything.
 
Anything that has to do with god can't be confirmed or refuted. Why is this in the science area instead of religion? It is all faith. I believe in Jesus, but I believe he gave us logic and a brain to help ourselfs. I don't really like the idea of being a sheep herder people that blindly do anything.
FYI, it's in the science section because it relates to information theory.
 
....Information: the attribute inherent in and communicated by one of two or more alternative sequences or arrangements of something (as nucleotides in DNA or binary digits in a computer program) that produce specific effects...
Not really.
Do, ie, Crystals, or simple multi-atom molecules, or long-chain Non-organic molecules, form because of 'information', or is that their atomic nature and chance?

Lutroo said:
Intelligence: Let's keep it simple. Intelligence is required in order to understand or comprehend something. Most importantly, intelligence is required for the act of creation. By creation, I'm referring to the willful act of ordering something, such as words, into a meaningful sentence. Another example would be the creation of a song or a painting.
We don't know how the universe or life happened. (tho some good ideas on the latter)
You are Spinning the issue by calling what we don't know yet 'Creation', ergo having a creatOR/god.
See next portion.

Lutroo said:
Does anyone have a problem with either of these definitions? If not, I'll move on.
Your premise errors already busted.
Basically your Fallacy is called
God of the gaps - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and
God of the gaps - RationalWiki


Lutroo said:
It is my contention that information, as defined above, is the result of a intelligent mind. There is no known natural phenomenon that is capable of creating meaningful information. Information exists only as the product of intelligence.
Again, you're calling anything we observe now in the natural world 'information', when it's just what IS.
If I threw 1000 pick-up sticks down 1000 times... every time with a different result.. YOU would call any of those resulting 'arrangements', 'information.'

There is NO Discernible order or IQ in the messy universe.
It's 99.999999999999999999% Uninhabitable by us (gawd's ostensible jewel), Galaxies are colliding, stars exploding.. as will ours.
cont'd

Lutroo said:
Moving on. DNA fits the definition of information as defined above. If you disagree, then please inform us all what part of the definition I gave is not valid for DNA. It contains a sequence of molecules that produce specific effects. So it meets the requirement of information. Case closed.
Again, molecular formation, be it organic or inorganic, does not require any intelligence or 'information', merely the natural tendencies of the material. Quadrillions of 6 pointed snowflakes/frozen-water fall every day, because of the molecular charges/tendencies of H2O, not 'intelligence', 'information', nor god.

You must be joking.
You and your word-spinning, trying to prove god. LOL
+
/crickets
Was that intended to advance the discussion? If so, you really need to try harder.
I answered everything you claimed you Dishonest POS.
It took you 4 EMBARRASSES/PORKED/STFU-ed days of not responding even tho you Were here..
To fall on the DISHONEST NON-response 'Try harder' instead.

You're not only Stupid and Hopelessly indoctrinated, you're DISHONEST.
LYING FOR JESUS.

Now you start an new Idiotic UNspecific string asking people to discuss science with you, even though your were Butt-Porked and had NO answer to me in this one.
`
 
Show me one example of information that is not the result of intelligence. You can't. All of our observations prove that chaos cannot create meaningful information. Only intelligence can.
Once again you're stating your thesis as a given. That's not proof, even if I can't come up with a single counter-argument.
 
Show me one example of information that is not the result of intelligence. You can't. All of our observations prove that chaos cannot create meaningful information. Only intelligence can.
Once again you're stating your thesis as a given. That's not proof, even if I can't come up with a single counter-argument.
So you admit that you cannot provide an example. Actually, no one can. There has not been one example of information that comes from a source other than intelligence. Thanks for proving my point.
 

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