Senate Approves Resolution Backing Israel in Hamas Conflict

[Procrustes Stretched]

Are you talking about when Hamas won 100% of the vote, or when they took over Gaza via Coup?

Did they win 100% of the vote? methinks you are wrong.

In January 2006, Hamas won a surprise victory in the Palestinian parliamentary elections, taking 76 of the 132 seats in the chamber, while the previous ruling Fatah party took 43.[10] Many perceived the preceding Fatah government as corrupt and ineffective, and Hamas's supporters see it as an "armed resistance"[11] movement defending Palestinians from the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories.[12] However, since Hamas's election victory, particularly sharp infighting has occurred between Hamas and Fatah.[13][14]

Following the Battle of Gaza in June of 2007, elected Hamas officials were ousted from their positions in the Palestinian National Authority government in the West Bank, replaced by rival Fatah members and independents in an action that many Palestinians and other experts considered illegal.[15][16] On 18 June 2007, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas (Fatah) issued a decree outlawing the Hamas militia and executive force.[17]

Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada,[18] the European Union,[19][20][21][22] Israel,[23] Japan,[24] and the United States,[25] and is banned in Jordan.[26] Australia[27] and the United Kingdom[28] list only the military wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization. The United States and the European Union have both implemented restrictive measures against Hamas on an international level.[19][29]

 

[toomuchtime_]

As delineated by what international law? Could you provide me a reference?



If Israel were more discriminating in their attacks, they wouldn't be killing people who did not attack them, while paradoxically claiming self defense.



Per Wikipedia, "Moral hazard is the prospect that a party insulated from risk may behave differently from the way it would behave if it were fully exposed to the risk." Going to war, without US weaponry, would present the risk that Israel would not be able to defend itself from other nations - we are removing one important risk of them going to war - which is crucial in determining whether war is necessary.

According to the Geneva Conventions hiding fighters or weapons or any military asset in civilian areas is a war crime. Again, according to the Geneva Conventions, Israel is required to take all steps that are consistent with the success of the mission and the safety of its troops to minimize civilian casualties. Clearly Israel is doing that.

By Israel being more discriminating in their attacks, I assume you mean that the IDF should forgo the use of artillery and air power, which means, of course, many more Israelis would die in order to take out each target. Now all Israelis and most Americans who have been following the news from this conflict for any length of time have seen the videos the Palestinians put out showing Palestinian civilians dancing in the streets and handing out candy to celebrate the news that Israeli children have been blown up in a suicide attack, and all of us who have followed this conflict for any length of time can remember all those Palestinian parents who spoke about how proud they were that their children had committed these acts.

Now you're suggesting that an Israeli soldier should be asked to sacrifice his life to save a Palestinian civilian who would be dancing in the streets and handing out candy if that Palestinian heard that soldiers child had been blown up in a suicide attack and you claim these Palestinians are innocent of the attacks against Israeli civilians, but are they? If they celebrated the news of Israeli civilians being blown up and thereby encouraged young Palestinians to think they would be heroes if they did the same thing are they really innocent of responsibility for the attacks? Certainly they don't deserve to die for these actions, but neither do they deserve to have Israelis die to save them from the danger their elected leaders have put them in.

Again, your statements about "moral hazard amount to saying you think the US should not provide weapons to Israel even if Israel has not violated the terms of the sale and even if denying them these weapons would be detrimental to US strategy in the ME because Israel has unintentionally killed Palestinian civilians while trying to stop Hamas from killing Israeli civilians. Clearly, you want the US to become far more involved in this conflict than it is.

 

[pfife]

you are being disingenuous. I will not keep playing if you keep at it.

Your time is your choice.

In leiu of an answer I'll assume you have no answer.

Israel is striking at it's enemy who is hiding behind civilians using them as shields.

I know. Does this mean Israel is justified in killing civilians that did not attack them and claim self-defense?

you are not fooling me at all.

I failed to reach a goal I don't have.

The principle that is the basis of your premise. Your use of it is not what I am buying.

Why not?

Your high horse needs feeding.

Your statements need supporting evidence.

not buying it.

Why not?

 

[garyd]

Devnell, after you. Innocent implies perfection, let me know the next time you encounter a perfect human being. Me, I've never met one, nor do I expect to.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I know. Does this mean Israel is justified in killing civilians that did not attack them and claim self-defense?

Why not?

Why not?

Israel does not need to justify it's actions to you or me. Israel is within it's rights and the cost to the Palestinian civilians is put at their own door. They voted for HAMAS who had a platform that included going to war with Israel.

This is harsh and it sucks, but it is the naked truth.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

why not? because I am not a moralist.


---

"Morality's not practical. Morality's a gesture. A complicated gesture learned from books."
* Robert Bolt, in A Man For All Seasons (1960)

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Morality is the theory that every human act must be either right or wrong, and that 99% of them are wrong.

* H. L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy' (1949)', Ch. 30, p. 617

 

[Ravi]

And some on the 'left', those cheering on the Palestinians, are NOT happy. Links at site:

Commentary » Blog Archive » J Street Cowers

And some on the right aren't either, but we won't mention that, right Annie, because we must keep the great divide and hatred going.

 

[del]

Devnell, after you. Innocent implies perfection, let me know the next time you encounter a perfect human being. Me, I've never met one, nor do I expect to.

please allow me to introduce myself......i know it's unexpected.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

kumbaya my lord, kumbaya...

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Devnell, after you. Innocent implies perfection, let me know the next time you encounter a perfect human being. Me, I've never met one, nor do I expect to.

define perfection.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

please allow me to introduce myself......i know it's unexpected.

I was told I am a perfect asshole. I just wish I had a perfect asshole. Because if I did my shit would not stink.

btw, you smell familiar?

 

[pfife]

Israel does not need to justify it's actions to you or me. Israel is within it's rights and the cost to the Palestinian civilians is put at their own door. They voted for HAMAS who had a platform that included going to war with Israel.

This is harsh and it sucks, but it is the naked truth.

Per the Geneva convention per wikipedia, to which Israel is a signatory, it is a war crime to punish people who did not commit an offense:

Article 33. No protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed.

Voting for Hamas is not an offense. Further, not all who have perished voted for Hamas. Even further, Hamas took control of Gaza from a democratically elected government by violent coup in 2007.

Missiles are an offense. Those people should be punished. Punishing people for offenses they did not commit (firing missiles), or non offenses (voting for Hamas), as you declare above, is against the Geneva Conventions.

 

[pfife]

Did they win 100% of the vote? methinks you are wrong.

So, not all voted for them, so not all are responsible for their actions, per your messages?

FWIW, that message was sarcasm.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Then I guess you don't stand with the US either since we are killing civilians in Afghanistan in our fight to protect Americans against the threat from al Qaeda.

No, I certainly do not support America's overseas empire. Time to end both wars and bring home all the troops.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Per the Geneva convention per wikipedia, to which Israel is a signatory, it is a war crime to punish people who did not commit an offense:

Israel is not punishing the Palestinian civilian population. If they wanted to there would be far more mayhem than now.

Voting for Hamas is not an offense.

Well it should be. But really, HAMAS ran as a war party.

Further, not all who have perished voted for Hamas. Even further, Hamas took control of Gaza from a democratically elected government by violent coup in 2007.

War sucks. What is your point? No of what you posted matters once the dogs of war are unleashed.

[/quote]Missiles are an offense. Those people should be punished. Punishing people for offenses they did not commit (firing missiles), or non offenses (voting for Hamas), as you declare above, is against the Geneva Conventions.[/QUOTE]
Israel is not punishing anyone. Israel is striking an enemy that is hiding behind civilians. War sucks.

 

[pfife]

According to the Geneva Conventions hiding fighters or weapons or any military asset in civilian areas is a war crime. Again, according to the Geneva Conventions, Israel is required to take all steps that are consistent with the success of the mission and the safety of its troops to minimize civilian casualties. Clearly Israel is doing that.

On what article of the Geneva conventions are you basing your contention that hiding weapons among civilians is a war crime?

By Israel being more discriminating in their attacks, I assume you mean that the IDF should forgo the use of artillery and air power, which means, of course, many more Israelis would die in order to take out each target. Now all Israelis and most Americans who have been following the news from this conflict for any length of time have seen the videos the Palestinians put out showing Palestinian civilians dancing in the streets and handing out candy to celebrate the news that Israeli children have been blown up in a suicide attack, and all of us who have followed this conflict for any length of time can remember all those Palestinian parents who spoke about how proud they were that their children had committed these acts.

Now you're suggesting that an Israeli soldier should be asked to sacrifice his life to save a Palestinian civilian who would be dancing in the streets and handing out candy if that Palestinian heard that soldiers child had been blown up in a suicide attack and you claim these Palestinians are innocent of the attacks against Israeli civilians, but are they? If they celebrated the news of Israeli civilians being blown up and thereby encouraged young Palestinians to think they would be heroes if they did the same thing are they really innocent of responsibility for the attacks? Certainly they don't deserve to die for these actions, but neither do they deserve to have Israelis die to save them from the danger their elected leaders have put them in.

Israel's inability to discriminate between innocent and not innocent, and the consequent desire to reduce casualties to their own ranks does not justify the killing of people who did not attack you, paradoxically under the proclamation of self defense.

Again, your statements about "moral hazard amount to saying you think the US should not provide weapons to Israel even if Israel has not violated the terms of the sale and even if denying them these weapons would be detrimental to US strategy in the ME because Israel has unintentionally killed Palestinian civilians while trying to stop Hamas from killing Israeli civilians.

Yes. Clearly that means I want the US less involved. I want them to not give the weapons to Israel, which would be less involvement.

Clearly, you want the US to become far more involved in this conflict than it is.

Giving less weapons to Israel constitutes less involvement, not more involvement.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Yes. Clearly that means I want the US less involved. I want them to not give the weapons to Israel, which would be less involvement.


Giving less weapons to Israel constitutes less involvement, not more involvement.

you are still being disingenuous.

How does it feel to want?

 

[garyd]

Perfection never having made a mistake in your life. Having never done something you should not have and never having failed to do anything you should have. If you have told a white lie you aren't perfect. Yes the standard is impossibly high. That is why the perfect pluperfect tense of perfect actually imply less than perfect.

 

[pfife]

Israel is not punishing the Palestinian civilian population. If they wanted to there would be far more mayhem than now.

The bold part of your prior message isn't punishment?

Israel does not need to justify it's actions to you or me. Israel is within it's rights and the cost to the Palestinian civilians is put at their own door. They voted for HAMAS who had a platform that included going to war with Israel.

This is harsh and it sucks, but it is the naked truth.

Well it should be. But really, HAMAS ran as a war party.

So did the Republicans in 2004. Voting for a war party should be an offense? That's hardly democracy.

War sucks. What is your point?

There should be less of it.

No of what you posted matters once the dogs of war are unleashed.

Someone needs to change the slogan of this message board then.

Missiles are an offense. Those people should be punished. Punishing people for offenses they did not commit (firing missiles), or non offenses (voting for Hamas), as you declare above, is against the Geneva Conventions.

Israel is not punishing anyone. Israel is striking an enemy that is hiding behind civilians. War sucks.[/QUOTE]

See above.