So the UK murder and crime rate is fudged- a lot....

[CaféAuLait]

From the UK Parliament report:

Since 1967, homicide figures for England and Wales have been adjusted to exclude any cases which do not result in conviction, or where the person is not prosecuted on grounds of self defence or otherwise. This reduces the apparent number of homicides by between 13 per cent and 15 per cent.

Many countries, including the United States, do not adjust their statistics down in that way and their figures include cases of self defence, killings by police and justifiable homicides. In Portugal, cases in which the cause of death is unknown are included in the homicide figures, inflating the apparent homicide rate very considerably.

Causing death by dangerous driving is not classed as homicide in England and Wales, but is classified as homicide in some countries. Over 200 such cases occur in England and Wales each year.

So that guy who just killed 4 at the SXSW convention would not be included in UK homicide/murder rates. But will be in US rates skewing the numbers even further.

House of Commons - Home Affairs - Appendices to the Minutes of Evidence

It also does not count a murder until the person is convicted of murder/homicide and has exhausted all of their appeals. So you can have X amount of people in jail awaiting trial the death they caused will not go on their books until that person is convicted. If they are found not guilty, it still does not count as a homicide. Additionally, If I am reading this correctly if someone dies or commits suicide before their trial, those homicides/murders are not counted as well.

Why? The Parliament report above clearly states their actions as opposed to the way the US reports homicides and murders will inflate the homicide/murder rate of countries who do not count homicide and murders they way they do.

House of Commons - Home Affairs - Appendices to the Minutes of Evidence

More here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/116417/hosb1011.pdf

So trying to compare the US to the UK/Wales crime rate is ridiculous IMO.

This reminds me of the WHO report which came out sometime back and dealt with infant mortality, showing the US in a horrible position. However, it was then shown many countries do not count the death of an infant unless it has died past the age of 1, verses the US who counts the death as soon as they are born.

 

[waltky]

What dis world comin' to? Ever'body killin' ever'body else...

UN GLOBAL STUDY: MURDER RATE VERY HIGH IN AMERICAS
Apr 10,`14 -- Global murder rates have declined slightly, but remain very high in the Americas and parts of Africa, according to a new U.N. study released Thursday.

Homicide rates in southern Africa and Central America are more than four times higher than the global average of 6.2 victims per 100,000 people, the U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime report said. The figures chronicle murder rates in 2012. The global average was 6.9 in 2010, the year of the last previous study. That comes as no news to the city of San Pedro Sula, long considered the most violent city in Honduras, the country with the highest murder rate in the world: 90.4 per 100,000 inhabitants, according to the study. Someone in Honduras is almost 15 times more likely to be murdered than an average human being, and people run an even greater risk in San Pedro Sula, where death comes so quickly victims often don't see it coming.

Wilmer Alvarado, 11, was heading in the front door of his school Thursday morning when a gunfight between rival gangs broke out nearby. Alvarado died after being hit by a stray bullet; the bullet-ridden bodies of three gang members lay on the street nearby. Antonio Mazzitelli, the Mexico representative for the U.N. Office on Drugs and Crime, said the region suffers because "unfortunately there is a history of violence, and secondly the strong presence of criminals and organized crime, and these are factors that surely encourage the use of violence."

U.N. policy analyst Jean-Luc Lemahieu said the figures show that while Canada and the U.S. remain below the global average - the U.S. homicide rate was 4.7 per 100,000 inhabitants - some countries in Central and South America are making little progress. "The Americas remain a very violent part of the world," Lemahieu said, citing high murder rates in Honduras, Belize, El Salvador, Colombia, Venezuela and Mexico. He said violence between rival drug cartels has been a contributing factor to the troubles in Mexico, where the homicide rate has roughly doubled since 2007. "With other parts of Central America, you have to look at the gang issue," he said. "The gangs are often created for people who are marginalized, who are looking for an identity. They need competition against other gangs, against society. They want to be seen, to be violent, to establish territory."

Arabeska Sanchez, an analyst at Honduras' University Institute for Democracy, Peace and Safety, said "nothing at all has changed here regarding the effects of violence." "The types of violence we are seeing are getting more and more brutal, with bodies put in bags and chopped up." South Africa still has a murder rate of about 31 per 100,000 people but has seen a steady reduction in the last five years. "It's still very violent compared to the global average, but the trend is in a positive direction," he said. Homicide rates are lowest in Europe, Asia and Oceania, according to the report, which was released in London. It estimates that only about 43 percent of murders end with a conviction of the person responsible. Even countries with stubborn problems of violence, like Venezuela, with a murder rate of 53.7 per 100,000, came in far behind Honduras.

News from The Associated Press

 

[Tank]

Most crime is where blacks and hispanics are

 

[NoNukes]

Most crime is where blacks and hispanics are

There are not many Blacks or Hispanics here in Ireland, and you know what? Whites do commit crimes.

 

[Tank]

Most crime is where blacks and hispanics are

There are not many Blacks or Hispanics here in Ireland, and you know what? Whites do commit crimes.

Sure whites commit crime, it's just that blacks and hispanics commit way more.

 

[theliq]

From the UK Parliament report:

Since 1967, homicide figures for England and Wales have been adjusted to exclude any cases which do not result in conviction, or where the person is not prosecuted on grounds of self defence or otherwise. This reduces the apparent number of homicides by between 13 per cent and 15 per cent.

Many countries, including the United States, do not adjust their statistics down in that way and their figures include cases of self defence, killings by police and justifiable homicides. In Portugal, cases in which the cause of death is unknown are included in the homicide figures, inflating the apparent homicide rate very considerably.

Causing death by dangerous driving is not classed as homicide in England and Wales, but is classified as homicide in some countries. Over 200 such cases occur in England and Wales each year.

So that guy who just killed 4 at the SXSW convention would not be included in UK homicide/murder rates. But will be in US rates skewing the numbers even further.

House of Commons - Home Affairs - Appendices to the Minutes of Evidence

It also does not count a murder until the person is convicted of murder/homicide and has exhausted all of their appeals. So you can have X amount of people in jail awaiting trial the death they caused will not go on their books until that person is convicted. If they are found not guilty, it still does not count as a homicide. Additionally, If I am reading this correctly if someone dies or commits suicide before their trial, those homicides/murders are not counted as well.

Why? The Parliament report above clearly states their actions as opposed to the way the US reports homicides and murders will inflate the homicide/murder rate of countries who do not count homicide and murders they way they do.

House of Commons - Home Affairs - Appendices to the Minutes of Evidence

More here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/116417/hosb1011.pdf

So trying to compare the US to the UK/Wales crime rate is ridiculous IMO.

This reminds me of the WHO report which came out sometime back and dealt with infant mortality, showing the US in a horrible position. However, it was then shown many countries do not count the death of an infant unless it has died past the age of 1, verses the US who counts the death as soon as they are born.

That all may be so,but America's GUN DEATHS AND MURDERS are a disgrace,you are a VIOLENT SOCIETY.....so your point IS

 

[CaféAuLait]

From the UK Parliament report:

Since 1967, homicide figures for England and Wales have been adjusted to exclude any cases which do not result in conviction, or where the person is not prosecuted on grounds of self defence or otherwise. This reduces the apparent number of homicides by between 13 per cent and 15 per cent.

Causing death by dangerous driving is not classed as homicide in England and Wales, but is classified as homicide in some countries. Over 200 such cases occur in England and Wales each year.

So that guy who just killed 4 at the SXSW convention would not be included in UK homicide/murder rates. But will be in US rates skewing the numbers even further.

House of Commons - Home Affairs - Appendices to the Minutes of Evidence

It also does not count a murder until the person is convicted of murder/homicide and has exhausted all of their appeals. So you can have X amount of people in jail awaiting trial the death they caused will not go on their books until that person is convicted. If they are found not guilty, it still does not count as a homicide. Additionally, If I am reading this correctly if someone dies or commits suicide before their trial, those homicides/murders are not counted as well.

Why? The Parliament report above clearly states their actions as opposed to the way the US reports homicides and murders will inflate the homicide/murder rate of countries who do not count homicide and murders they way they do.

House of Commons - Home Affairs - Appendices to the Minutes of Evidence

More here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/116417/hosb1011.pdf

So trying to compare the US to the UK/Wales crime rate is ridiculous IMO.

This reminds me of the WHO report which came out sometime back and dealt with infant mortality, showing the US in a horrible position. However, it was then shown many countries do not count the death of an infant unless it has died past the age of 1, verses the US who counts the death as soon as they are born.

That all may be so,but America's GUN DEATHS AND MURDERS are a disgrace,you are a VIOLENT SOCIETY.....so your point IS

Wow, really? You did not comprehend that too well did you, or are you trying to claim that a murder, even if found not guilty is not a murder as the UK does? LOL

The point is IF the UK and Wales, counted homicides/murders the SAME way as the US does , it would make the UK murder rate the same as the US or in fact higher.

Meaning the UK is just as violent and the murder rate the same, it matters not if you are hacked to death with a knife or bludgeoned with a bat or shot to death. YOU ARE still dead.

Oh and BTW the UK violent crime rate is much higher than the US by the UK reporting standards.

Vision of Humanity

UK rape rate is double the US per 100,000...

Statistics

Current UK population

 

[Tank]

Well the UK does have the Muslim.

Muslim = Alot of crime

 

[theHawk]

The point is liberals always have to hide the truth. They don't want to talk about statistics truthfully, it doesn't help their agenda.

If they told the truth about homicide rates in countries like the UK, where there is strict gun control, it would blow the lid off of their anti-gun agenda.

If they told the truth about homicide rates in the US, where the vast majority of homicide victims and perps are black and hispanic, it would blow the lid off of their anti-gun agenda.

The progressive agenda is far more important than the truth, if you are a liberal.

 

[Manchester]

Having just read that entire article I'm struggling to see where anything is "fudged"

The UK measure their murder rate by murders, and it gets called a murder rate. In America the word homocide is used which has a vastly different meaning to murder. A murder is an unlawful killing of another human beaing with malice of forethought where as a homocide is the killing of a human being under any circumstance legal or otherwise.

There is no "fudge", just a different way of recordong data. The only debate around this would be who has the better way of measuring these things and the explanation that they cannot be compared in a like for like fashion as they are two different pieces of data.

 

[Manchester]

Well the UK does have the Muslim.

Muslim = Alot of crime

The 2.4% of the UK population that is Muslim account for 10% of it's economy. Muslim = Alot of tax contributed.

 

[Tank]

I don't know if Muslims pay 10% of tax's, but I do know they commit way more then 10% of the crime

 

[CaféAuLait]

Having just read that entire article I'm struggling to see where anything is "fudged"

The UK measure their murder rate by murders, and it gets called a murder rate. In America the word homocide is used which has a vastly different meaning to murder. A murder is an unlawful killing of another human beaing with malice of forethought where as a homocide is the killing of a human being under any circumstance legal or otherwise.

There is no "fudge", just a different way of recordong data. The only debate around this would be who has the better way of measuring these things and the explanation that they cannot be compared in a like for like fashion as they are two different pieces of data.

I think you need to read that again. In the US everything is referred to as a homicide until it is decided if it is murder though trial. it is still considered a death or homicide dependent on that trial or outcome in the US. Just like Zimmerman, even though found not guilty, Trayvon's death is still listed on our books as a murder. The UK however will not count a Trayvons' death as a homicide/murder, it just wont be counted at all in their homicide/murder rate, in fact the UK report says this form of counting lowers their homicide/murders by up to 15 percent. The same with any other homicide in the UK, it wont be counted at all unless convicted and or until convicted or until all appeals run out.

Since 1967, homicide figures for England and Wales have been adjusted to exclude any cases which do not result in conviction, or where the person is not prosecuted on grounds of self defence or otherwise. This reduces the apparent number of homicides by between 13 per cent and 15 per cent.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmhaff/95/95ap25.htm

In the UK homicide and murder are interchangeable, Homicide is murder, murder is homicide. If you read the report in full it counts gun deaths as homicides. If you are found to be in self defense the death is not counted towards their homicide rate. The US counts everything when it adds up deaths by homicide or murder. If every single death was counted in the UK and not excluded from their homicide rate as they do their count would be much higher.

 

[Manchester]

Having just read that entire article I'm struggling to see where anything is "fudged"

The UK measure their murder rate by murders, and it gets called a murder rate. In America the word homocide is used which has a vastly different meaning to murder. A murder is an unlawful killing of another human beaing with malice of forethought where as a homocide is the killing of a human being under any circumstance legal or otherwise.

There is no "fudge", just a different way of recordong data. The only debate around this would be who has the better way of measuring these things and the explanation that they cannot be compared in a like for like fashion as they are two different pieces of data.

I think you need to read that again. In the US everything is referred to as a homicide until it is decided if it is murder though trial. it is still considered a death or homicide dependent on that trial or outcome in the US. Just like Zimmerman, even though found not guilty, Trayvon's death is still listed on our books as a murder. The UK however will not count a Trayvons' death as a homicide/murder, it just wont be counted at all in their homicide/murder rate, in fact the UK report says this form of counting lowers their homicide/murders by up to 15 percent. The same with any other homicide in the UK, it wont be counted at all unless convicted and or until convicted or until all appeals run out.

Since 1967, homicide figures for England and Wales have been adjusted to exclude any cases which do not result in conviction, or where the person is not prosecuted on grounds of self defence or otherwise. This reduces the apparent number of homicides by between 13 per cent and 15 per cent.

House of Commons - Home Affairs - Appendices to the Minutes of Evidence

In the UK homicide and murder are interchangeable, Homicide is murder, murder is homicide. If you read the report in full it counts gun deaths as homicides. If you are found to be in self defense the death is not counted towards their homicide rate. The US counts everything when it adds up deaths by homicide or murder. If every single death was counted in the UK and not excluded from their homicide rate as they do their count would be much higher.

I got all of that but how is that a "fudged" figure. It's a perfectly legitmate way to report a murder rate, the amoutn of people who are actually murdered. If anything it doesn't show that the UK murder rate is artifically low, it show the US one is artifically high as justifiable homocides are chalked down as murders.

 

[Manchester]

I don't know if Muslims pay 10% of tax's, but I do know they commit way more then 10% of the crime

Really? How do you know that? Is there some UK home office data on crime rates by religion I can't find? I'd love to see it if you have a link.

 

[Tank]

I don't know if Muslims pay 10% of tax's, but I do know they commit way more then 10% of the crime

Really? How do you know that? Is there some UK home office data on crime rates by religion I can't find? I'd love to see it if you have a link.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oWn6_lwQQQ]England's Gang Rape Epidemic - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Manchester]

I don't know if Muslims pay 10% of tax's, but I do know they commit way more then 10% of the crime

Really? How do you know that? Is there some UK home office data on crime rates by religion I can't find? I'd love to see it if you have a link.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oWn6_lwQQQ]England's Gang Rape Epidemic - YouTube[/ame]

Is that a no?

 

[JoeB131]

[

Wow, really? You did not comprehend that too well did you, or are you trying to claim that a murder, even if found not guilty is not a murder as the UK does? LOL

The point is IF the UK and Wales, counted homicides/murders the SAME way as the US does , it would make the UK murder rate the same as the US or in fact higher.

Meaning the UK is just as violent and the murder rate the same, it matters not if you are hacked to death with a knife or bludgeoned with a bat or shot to death. YOU ARE still dead.

Oh and BTW the UK violent crime rate is much higher than the US by the UK reporting standards.

UK rape rate is double the US per 100,000...

First, the only murder stats that are taken out of the count are cases where a finding of self-defence.

Second- and I know this is hard for you Wingnuts to grasp, is that the UK had 600 murders in 2012, 28 of them with guns, while we had 16,000 murder, 11,000 of them with guns.

There's no way you can go ahead and say, "Well, the Brits are counting things differently!" and not be laughed out of the room.

As for Rape, the problem is, we count rape as only when there was forced intercourse. The British count ANY kind of unwanted sexual encounter.

 

[Manchester]

Really? How do you know that? Is there some UK home office data on crime rates by religion I can't find? I'd love to see it if you have a link.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oWn6_lwQQQ]England's Gang Rape Epidemic - YouTube[/ame]

Is that a no?

I'll take that silence as a no. When you back up a claim that Muslims are causing "over 10%" of the crime in a country with a video about majority of teenage gang rapists being black then I know that you have nothing other than your own prejudices.

 

[CaféAuLait]

[

Wow, really? You did not comprehend that too well did you, or are you trying to claim that a murder, even if found not guilty is not a murder as the UK does? LOL

The point is IF the UK and Wales, counted homicides/murders the SAME way as the US does , it would make the UK murder rate the same as the US or in fact higher.

Meaning the UK is just as violent and the murder rate the same, it matters not if you are hacked to death with a knife or bludgeoned with a bat or shot to death. YOU ARE still dead.

Oh and BTW the UK violent crime rate is much higher than the US by the UK reporting standards.

UK rape rate is double the US per 100,000...

First, the only murder stats that are taken out of the count are cases where a finding of self-defence.

Second- and I know this is hard for you Wingnuts to grasp, is that the UK had 600 murders in 2012, 28 of them with guns, while we had 16,000 murder, 11,000 of them with guns.

There's no way you can go ahead and say, "Well, the Brits are counting things differently!" and not be laughed out of the room.

As for Rape, the problem is, we count rape as only when there was forced intercourse. The British count ANY kind of unwanted sexual encounter.

I'm going to address your first sentence given you are wrong according to the parliamentary report linked in my op:

Since 1967, homicide figures for England and Wales have been adjusted to exclude any cases which do not result in conviction, or where the person is not prosecuted on grounds of self defence or otherwise. This reduces the apparent number of homicides by between 13 per cent and 15 per cent.

^ that information comes verbatim from the parliamentary report linked in my OP.

And this comes verbatim as well, if someone in the UK commits vehicular homicide that is also not included in the homicide rate, ( as the US does) again copied and pasted from the report:

Causing death by dangerous driving is not classed as homicide in England and Wales, but is classified as homicide in some countries. Over 200 such cases occur in England and Wales each year.

As far as comparing the (false) number of deaths by homicide in the UK to those in the US you make an elementary mistake in comparing figures of total deaths / murders. Doesn't work that way, the UK has 60million people while the US has over 300 million. The figures will differ quite a bit, this is why is it calculated as a percentage per 100,000.

Not sure why you are focused on guns, my post had nothing to do with guns

Shipman is a good example. When he was convicted his murders of 167 people were finally added to the homicide rate, all in one year, upping that years homicide rate by 5 percent if I recall correctly, it may have been slightly lower. Until someone is convicted and all appeals are exhausted that murder is not added to the murder rate.

All of the above skews numbers, period.