Splitting The Republican Party

[jasendorf]

Dorfo. How do you feel about school personnel taking girls for abortions without parental consent or knowledge. Is that extreme?

I think that's a bad idea all around. But, I've never heard of such a case... care to provide a ? (Sorry, I've been dying to use that smiley)


The real question in most far-left people's minds is whether the far-right can stop at common sense, reasonable and reasoned restrictions on abortion. Every indication is that they cannot. They will use each "victory" to push to a total and complete ban on abortion which will devalue women to the point that they become little more than baby machines for their husbands. With that in mind, the far-left continues to push back harder than should be necessary to prevent the right from gaining ground. The gridlock is created because, to the far-right, there is no reasonable restrictions... there is only abortion or no abortion.

 

[jasendorf]

dorfo. You're a little wacked out, but you hold your ground and attempt to make intelligent points. and for that you're slightly cool.

Did you get banned at your old board? Or just leave. Messageboard sociology is fascinating to me.

While I've been banned from my fair share of right-wing sites (got my entire company's IP pool banned from hannity.com, ooops)... the site I'm currently coming from I was not. And, I haven't really quite left... I'm just trying something new because the discussion at the old board just ain't what it used to be.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

While I've been banned from my fair share of right-wing sites (got my entire company's IP pool banned from hannity.com, ooops)... the site I'm currently coming from I was not. And, I haven't really quite left... I'm just trying something new because the discussion at the old board just ain't what it used to be.

That's funny.

The people need to come together. The left needs to quit hating america and the right needs to see there MUST be some limits to what's for sale.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I think that's a bad idea all around. But, I've never heard of such a case... care to provide a ? (Sorry, I've been dying to use that smiley)


The real question in most far-left people's minds is whether the far-right can stop at common sense, reasonable and reasoned restrictions on abortion. Every indication is that they cannot. They will use each "victory" to push to a total and complete ban on abortion which will devalue women to the point that they become little more than baby machines for their husbands. With that in mind, the far-left continues to push back harder than should be necessary to prevent the right from gaining ground. The gridlock is created because, to the far-right, there is no reasonable restrictions... there is only abortion or no abortion.

I just heard it on the radio. But since you think that's bad all around, we need go no further. These issues are used by what are called the party "gatekeepers", those who decide what the party platform is, to keep the people divided. I really think if put to a full referendum, abortions would be still kept legal but with restrictions.

 

[CSM]

CSM, re-reading I can see where that's not a very clear... the lack of a years of discussion background really make this harder than at my old message boards!

Properly framed, they're pandering to those who don't understand that the failure in stopping illegal immigration is an ignorance in a simple equation defined by the laws of supply and demand. Labor is a commodity. When their are shortages in its availability, prices for it should go up. What is a good way to keep them down? Infuse more laborers into the equation... that is why the Republican Party has been so reluctent to slow illegal immigration. Cheap labor is what drives the Republican Party and what drives their corporate and trust fund contributors to contribute to them. Unfortunately, legal immigration creates a papertrail... just look at the backlash from H1-B tech visas which have kept tech salaries from skyrocketing.

Illegal immigration is more tempting to many immigrants not because it is EASY, but it is EASIER than legal immigration. Drop the roadblocks to immigration, lower the amount of superfluous red tape, stop rewarding employers with cheap laborers and illegal immigrant laborers with tax-free earnings and you dry up the reasons for illegal immigration. This isn't tough.

Unfortunately, all those proposals would take a sincere leader, and it's easier to just suggest building a wall and call out the National Guard.

In essence, I am in agreement that the course of action for stemming the tide of illegal aliens requires a crackdown on employers that hire them. I would point out that it is not just Republicans that have failed in their duty to protect our borders. Democrats have had opportunities to do something as well. Amnesty has been offered before (1980's) but nothing has ever been done about really securing the borders. I am upset that this administration refuses to secure the borders and is pussy footing around with feel good measure like sending the National Guard to border states. A little digging clearly show that those Guardsmen will be doing exactly NOTHING that will help alleviate the problem.

As for a paper trail for LEGAL immigration, I dont see that as a bad thing at all. Making LEGAL immigration easier is definitely NOT the solution (IMO). Why the heck should the US take another country's criminals (for example). I have nothing against LEGAL immigrants and actually welcome them. I do have something against people who's first act in this country is to commit a crime; i.e, enter this country illegally.

 

[jasendorf]

Illegal immigrants, or (as you prefer to call the guys who roofed your house and then had a beer and then slept in a cramped apartment with 7 other guys who roof houses all trying to make a fairly honest buck to make the future better for their families) ***criminals***... are generally simple folk. They're at the lowest end of economies that are already void of a middle class and they're coming here to provide the cheap labor demanded by industry. Supply-side economics is bunk and so is supply-side immigration reform. Until you dry up the demand, illegal immigration will continue to be a problem.

 

[jasendorf]

I just heard it on the radio. But since you think that's bad all around, we need go no further.

Oh, but I think we do. Anecdotes make for great strawman arguments which are then parroted by those looking for fodder for their case. I can't let you just go slandering some nebulous teachers and not say something.

 

[CSM]

Illegal immigrants, or (as you prefer to call the guys who roofed your house and then had a beer and then slept in a cramped apartment with 7 other guys who roof houses all trying to make a fairly honest buck to make the future better for their families) ***criminals***... are generally simple folk. They're at the lowest end of economies that are already void of a middle class and they're coming here to provide the cheap labor demanded by industry. Supply-side economics is bunk and so is supply-side immigration reform. Until you dry up the demand, illegal immigration will continue to be a problem.

See? Therein lies the problem...they are not making an "honest buck" they are here ILLEGALLY. What part of that don't you understand? They committed a criminal act...that makes them criminals! Just so you know, I roofed my own house. I want to make the future better for my family too so is it ok if I commit a criminal act to do it? Maybe I should go rob a bank...I mean, it is a criminal act but hey, I am just trying to make things better for my family and that excuses criminal acts...right?

 

[jasendorf]

So, every subsequent action a criminal commits is similarly a crime? Sorry, that ain't true. That's like saying that it's criminal for me to be typing this message because I got a speeding ticket in 1992.

Face it, employers don't want legal immigrants. Why? Because legal immigrants have things like rights and labor law protections. Until the penalties (the risk) for hiring illegal immigrants makes the risk of being caught too great, the supply will rise to meet the demand. You can't keep capitalism from happening by attempting to stop supply.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

A wall is the only way. Trusting employers to enforce our immigration laws is the same stupidity that didn't work before.

 

[jasendorf]

Who said anything about trusting them to? All that's needed is for the Executive Branch to do its job and enforce our laws.

 

[CSM]

So, every subsequent action a criminal commits is similarly a crime? Sorry, that ain't true. That's like saying that it's criminal for me to be typing this message because I got a speeding ticket in 1992.

Damn you can jump! Please show me where I said that.

Once a criminal had paid for his crim, he is no longer a criminal is he! The ones that don't pay for their crime is still a frikkin criminal until he does. If your license was revoked because of speeding and you drove anyway you are still a criminal!

Face it, employers don't want legal immigrants. Why? Because legal immigrants have things like rights and labor law protections. Until the penalties (the risk) for hiring illegal immigrants makes the risk of being caught too great, the supply will rise to meet the demand. You can't keep capitalism from happening by attempting to stop supply.

Again, I tend to agree with your last paragraph.

However, I do not agree with the overarching sentiment. If we extend your line of thinking beyond the immigration issue, then every first time criminal should get a pass. Why? Because all they have to do is claim they are trying to make things better. That is something I will NEVER agree to, no matter how many leaps of logic you take.

 

[jasendorf]

So, every subsequent action a criminal commits is similarly a crime? Sorry, that ain't true. That's like saying that it's criminal for me to be typing this message because I got a speeding ticket in 1992.

Damn you can jump! Please show me where I said that.

See? Therein lies the problem...they are not making an "honest buck" they are here ILLEGALLY.

Your comparison to driving on a suspended license is not a comparison at all... there are laws against driving on a suspended license. Last time I checked, it is still legal to roof a house.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Who said anything about trusting them to? All that's needed is for the Executive Branch to do its job and enforce our laws.

Why not the border laws?

There are too many employers to monitor. I bet you have a solution right? No more private business? Commie.

 

[jasendorf]

Border laws are fine too... but, those laws are targetted at the SUPPLY... not the DEMAND. And, as I've stated, I believe supply-side immigration reform to be useless.




sarcasm
Oh, wait... it's worked for drugs! I take it back, you're right...
/sarcasm

 

[deaddude]

It happens, political parties are self-destructive. Look at the dems, held power for an extremely long time and fell apart. Same thing has happened to every political dynasty (for lack of a better term) in the history of this country. Eventfull times and contreversial decisions only speed up the process, and the Bush presidency has been nothing if not eventfull and contreversial.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Border laws are fine too... but, those laws are targetted at the SUPPLY... not the DEMAND. And, as I've stated, I believe supply-side immigration reform to be useless.




sarcasm
Oh, wait... it's worked for drugs! I take it back, you're right...
/sarcasm

So a big wall with manned machine gun turrets would be ineffective. I call bullshit.

We tried to get employers to do it before it. when we tried to enforce the law, they bought off the government. It will happen again. Heaping the the responsibility on employers will fail again, and is the equivalent of doing nothing. But you commies want to flood the nation with ignorant poor so you can sell them your communist lies. Dontcha.

 

[jasendorf]

So a big wall with manned machine gun turrets would be ineffective. I call bullshit.

Unless you have a wat to create a wall along the entire coastline... oh yeah, and all the way through the north... illegal immigrants will come from somewhere. Now, if you only want to keep out those Latino illegal immigrants, a wall might just be your best bet... but there are plenty of checkpoints for people to travel through Canada to here without so much as a "how do you do, eh?"

We tried to get employers to do it before it. when we tried to enforce the law, they bought off the government. It will happen again. Heaping the the responsibility on employers will fail again, and is the equivalent of doing nothing.

Funny... the cops can find a 19 year-old-kid with a dime bag... but are totally incapable of finding some company employing 20 illegal immigrants. Makes one wonder where the Bush Adminstration's priorities are.

But you commies want to flood the nation with ignorant poor so you can sell them your communist lies. Dontcha.

Just as much as you want to use them for slave labor.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Jasendorf. A wall is still great with me, despite your nonissues.

All politicians are corrupt. we should COUNT on that and not put them in situations where simply looking the other way will totally render the system unworkable.
You commies never seem to learn. Or else you don't WANT massive illegal immigration stopped. That's actually the real truth.

 

[jasendorf]

Let's see... how have walls faired in the past... let's see...

Great Wall, invaders went around it.
Maginot Line, invaders went through it.
Atlantic Wall, invaders went through it.
Berlin Wall, escapees went under it, over it and some even died trying.
And, what happens when we put a wall on our southern border???