The reality behind Health Care Reform

[Igorbot]

As far as I know no one has had a cancer treatment stopped in progress due to insurance being cut off. The problem occurs when the bill from the hospital comes due. So for example, if your insurance company has a 1,000,000 cap, and your bill is 1,500,000 your left paying the 500,000. If your doing your part, working ect, I have no problem helping you out, with my money. Given the fact that most hospitals want you to pay this amount off in 1 year, could be a sizable burden to you and your family. As to the value of life that is a different argument, one that deals both with abortion and war. One could argue that if your pro-life does that mean that you will use any method to prevent the death of a single individual and at what cost????? Does this mean that your also anti war??? Anti death penalty?????? On the other hand if this is all a wash then human beings are just dollar signs, some are worth more and some are not. I find it odd that most right wing individuals are against the health care reform bill, go to the tea parties, tell us that we are turning in to a socialist socitity, are pro war and then tell me they are Christians. I think that the argument about heath care reform comes down to just one thing, my money.

 

[Navy1960]

Lack of health insurance is associated with
as many as 44789 deaths per year in the
United States, more than those caused by
kidney disease (n=42868).41 The increased
risk of death attributable to uninsurance
suggests that alternative measures of access
to medical care for the uninsured, such as
community health centers, do not provide the
protection of private health insurance. Despite
widespread acknowledgment that
enacting universal coverage would be life
saving, doing so remains politically thorny
http://pnhp.org/excessdeaths/health-insurance-and-mortality-in-US-adults.pdf

This is the Harvard Medical School Study where that number comes from, I'd suggest that those who often cite this as justification for a public healthcare plan read it closely, because , there are a couple of things worth mentioning, first the study itself will tell you that it did NOT validate self insured indivduals in the study and this is only an estimate !! based on not having PRIVATE Insurance. So for those who long advocated a Govt. option single payer I'd suggest not using this study to validate my argument.

...Is associated with.....which means the same as....We Assume from our data it could be one of the contributing factors....

I want to see people....case histories of deaths directly *caused* by lack of health insurance. I don't want to hear this crap about how they feel about it.

What were the causes???? What were the names, places, dates....specific instances. Not risks assessments.

And....once again....this is all invalidated because the program you support doesn't kick in for several years when it should have started yesterday. How can you reconcile that little irregularity? If you were so damned concerned and the program was so needed you would be demanding that it start as soon as it's signed.....not after the next couple of election cycles are history and enough taxes have been taken from us before we can discover whether the program is a piece of shit or not.

And for the record...one of my co-workers is as we speak dying from brain cancer. He's got great health insurance...but it's not gonna save him.

Frist of all let me clear this up for you, I do not support the bill that is mistakenly called healthcare reform nor will I ever support a bill that subverts the constitution as well as mortgages this nations future in order to accomplish none of it's goals. You mistakenly assume that because I make reference to the above mentioned study where the so called 45,000 that that somehow makes me a supporter of this healthcare bill which in the several hundered posts I have made on this issue is pretty clear I am not. However, it is clear that this nation does need to reform the healthcare system in order to make healthcare insurance and delivery more avialable and affordable for those that need it and want it. The Harvard study is in my opinion supporting private healthcare insurance and not public healthcare insurance and as such those that advocate for putting people into an already bankrupt and well documented for its terrible delivery (Medicaid) and call that reform are in for a very large let down.

 

[loosecannon]

I think it's spelled "r i b b i t." Not sure, but what I do know is your bullshit is getting sacrificed in quality the further the thread goes. I called out your contradictory claims so your lame obfuscation could only be applauded by how you were smart enough to drop the "whites will be a minority in 20-30 years" shit.

sorry loser but I provided a link referencing the Census Bureau's own findings that project whites becoming a moinority by 2042 or much sooner if the path to citizenship bills passes. That same report also found that white kids under 18 will become an ethnic minority within their age group by 2023.

You were just dead wrong. Go back and read it.

 

[loosecannon]

Can you pick a bullshit position and stick with it or will you just hop around like a blind frog? First you said:

"Health insurance neither causes nor prevents death."

Now you say:

"So 45,000 people die each year of natural causes that might be preventable if they had more money. Duh."

Ribbit.

since your response was gibberish I can't help you.

Most of the contents were your own words so I'm kind of surprised you admit what you post is gibberish. Guess any of us can be surprised by a spark of your honesty falling off the wagon. Cheers.

What was gibberish about your post was YOUR implied meaning. It was gibberish because the two quotes that you presented didn't conflict with one another.

You are simply too logically challenged to understand the content.

The inability to afford medical care is not = to a lack of insurance. Nobody ever dies because of a lack of health insurance. Period.

 

[mudwhistle]

As far as I know no one has had a cancer treatment stopped in progress due to insurance being cut off. The problem occurs when the bill from the hospital comes due. So for example, if your insurance company has a 1,000,000 cap, and your bill is 1,500,000 your left paying the 500,000. If your doing your part, working ect, I have no problem helping you out, with my money. Given the fact that most hospitals want you to pay this amount off in 1 year, could be a sizable burden to you and your family. As to the value of life that is a different argument, one that deals both with abortion and war. One could argue that if your pro-life does that mean that you will use any method to prevent the death of a single individual and at what cost????? Does this mean that your also anti war??? Anti death penalty?????? On the other hand if this is all a wash then human beings are just dollar signs, some are worth more and some are not. I find it odd that most right wing individuals are against the health care reform bill, go to the tea parties, tell us that we are turning in to a socialist socitity, are pro war and then tell me they are Christians. I think that the argument about heath care reform comes down to just one thing, my money.

As long as Democrats are involved in the process that's really all it boils down to.....our motherfucken money....the same money they think belongs to them.....to use anyway they see fit.

 

[mudwhistle]

Lack of health insurance is associated with
as many as 44789 deaths per year in the
United States, more than those caused by
kidney disease (n=42868).41 The increased
risk of death attributable to uninsurance
suggests that alternative measures of access
to medical care for the uninsured, such as
community health centers, do not provide the
protection of private health insurance. Despite
widespread acknowledgment that
enacting universal coverage would be life
saving, doing so remains politically thorny
http://pnhp.org/excessdeaths/health-insurance-and-mortality-in-US-adults.pdf

This is the Harvard Medical School Study where that number comes from, I'd suggest that those who often cite this as justification for a public healthcare plan read it closely, because , there are a couple of things worth mentioning, first the study itself will tell you that it did NOT validate self insured indivduals in the study and this is only an estimate !! based on not having PRIVATE Insurance. So for those who long advocated a Govt. option single payer I'd suggest not using this study to validate my argument.

...Is associated with.....which means the same as....We Assume from our data it could be one of the contributing factors....

I want to see people....case histories of deaths directly *caused* by lack of health insurance. I don't want to hear this crap about how they feel about it.

What were the causes???? What were the names, places, dates....specific instances. Not risks assessments.

And....once again....this is all invalidated because the program you support doesn't kick in for several years when it should have started yesterday. How can you reconcile that little irregularity? If you were so damned concerned and the program was so needed you would be demanding that it start as soon as it's signed.....not after the next couple of election cycles are history and enough taxes have been taken from us before we can discover whether the program is a piece of shit or not.

And for the record...one of my co-workers is as we speak dying from brain cancer. He's got great health insurance...but it's not gonna save him.

Frist of all let me clear this up for you, I do not support the bill that is mistakenly called healthcare reform nor will I ever support a bill that subverts the constitution as well as mortgages this nations future in order to accomplish none of it's goals. You mistakenly assume that because I make reference to the above mentioned study where the so called 45,000 that that somehow makes me a supporter of this healthcare bill which in the several hundered posts I have made on this issue is pretty clear I am not. However, it is clear that this nation does need to reform the healthcare system in order to make healthcare insurance and delivery more avialable and affordable for those that need it and want it. The Harvard study is in my opinion supporting private healthcare insurance and not public healthcare insurance and as such those that advocate for putting people into an already bankrupt and well documented for its terrible delivery (Medicaid) and call that reform are in for a very large let down.

However you may think, the left is using this study to push a fake conclusion down our throats.

One of the amazing things they claim is lack of health care effects women and children more...like we're supposed to say "Oh well, let's do it for all of the moms and babies". They say the same thing about everything hoping to yank on our heart strings. And if we don't do what they want they'll call us heartless bastards.

I don't like the fact that a good friend of mine can't get health insurance through his company...but this bill isn't going to change that. Being paid on commission means you don't get any benefits and that's not about to change anytime soon. And if it does the company will just lay him off because the government will give them no choice. You have a choice; Pay through the nose for the employees you have or get rid of some of them.

Which do you think a big company that wants to stay in business is gonna do?

 

[Navy1960]

First let me say this, if this bill had anything to do with helping Americans, like your friend then the bill would reflect that. What I think under this current bill most companies are going to so is simply shift people to the cheapest option possible in order to maximize profits. If that happens to be shifting lets say 100 employee's to Medicaid and paying a penalty for it, then thats what will happen. Further, I think that if companies see this as a no win then it means JOBS, as companies like with any heavy tax burden or heavy legislation will seek those places that are more business friendly, so it means more jobs moving offshore. The sad fact is that congress has the power to regulate, and had a chance to actually do something worthwhile here and in my opinion this bill is is about as far from that as you can get. I have long thought that even if the Govt. set up some sort of catastropic insurance program through Medicare that everyone could purchase like life insurance, and then regulate and stimulate the private insurance markets for on-going care it would result in a much leaner and much better healthcare system. There are many innovative ways to actually reform healthcare , sadly though mud, it seems that in an effort to get a legislative win, the word reform and healthcare had little to do with it.

 

[CurveLight]

I think it's spelled "r i b b i t." Not sure, but what I do know is your bullshit is getting sacrificed in quality the further the thread goes. I called out your contradictory claims so your lame obfuscation could only be applauded by how you were smart enough to drop the "whites will be a minority in 20-30 years" shit.

sorry loser but I provided a link referencing the Census Bureau's own findings that project whites becoming a moinority by 2042 or much sooner if the path to citizenship bills passes. That same report also found that white kids under 18 will become an ethnic minority within their age group by 2023.

You were just dead wrong. Go back and read it.

"But there was another problem with all this coverage of how white America is rapidly becoming a minority: The Census Bureau never actually said it. No need to take my word for it — you can see the numbers for yourself on the Census Bureau website. In a spreadsheet titled “Projections of the Population by Race and Hispanic Origin for the United States: 2008 to 2050,” the bureau forecasts a rise in the number of whites from about 243 million today to 325 million at midcentury — an increase of 82 million. A related spreadsheet gives the percentages: Whites today account for nearly 80 percent of the US population. In 2050, they’ll constitute 74 percent — somewhat less, but still a very hefty majority."
IS THE COMING WHITE MINORITY A MYTH? « Immigration Watch International

Like I said, you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[CurveLight]

since your response was gibberish I can't help you.

Most of the contents were your own words so I'm kind of surprised you admit what you post is gibberish. Guess any of us can be surprised by a spark of your honesty falling off the wagon. Cheers.

What was gibberish about your post was YOUR implied meaning. It was gibberish because the two quotes that you presented didn't conflict with one another.

You are simply too logically challenged to understand the content.

The inability to afford medical care is not = to a lack of insurance. Nobody ever dies because of a lack of health insurance. Period.

Lol.....the inability to afford medical care is not = to a lack of insurance? Wtf? Makes perfect sense! If you can't afford the care you can't afford the insurance.

 

[Toro]

What's amazing is that this has been done before in the housing industry.

Get people into loans that they can't afford.

Now they want us all to cover people that normally can't get insurance...which means our premiums will skyrocket.

Our premiums have already skyrocketed to cover emergency room costs for people who go there to get care who don't have health insurance. Emergency rooms are a loss center for most hospitals, so they charge more elsewhere, which is paid for by you because they jack up other services to cover their losses, which means higher costs to the insurance companies which they pass along to you.

 

[Toro]

What was gibberish about your post was YOUR implied meaning. It was gibberish because the two quotes that you presented didn't conflict with one another.

You are simply too logically challenged to understand the content.

The inability to afford medical care is not = to a lack of insurance. Nobody ever dies because of a lack of health insurance. Period.

I have asked this question before but it has never been answered, so I'd appreciate it if you or anyone else could answer.

You said that nobody die because of lack of health insurance. What happens if someone who does not have health insurance comes down with cancer and cannot afford to pay for treatment? How do they get treated? Do they get the same level of care as someone with insurance?

 

[mudwhistle]

What was gibberish about your post was YOUR implied meaning. It was gibberish because the two quotes that you presented didn't conflict with one another.

You are simply too logically challenged to understand the content.

The inability to afford medical care is not = to a lack of insurance. Nobody ever dies because of a lack of health insurance. Period.

I have asked this question before but it has never been answered, so I'd appreciate it if you or anyone else could answer.

You said that nobody die because of lack of health insurance. What happens if someone who does not have health insurance comes down with cancer and cannot afford to pay for treatment? How do they get treated? Do they get the same level of care as someone with insurance?

I'm sure once this bill is signed they will...we all will.....the same shitty level of care.

 

[loosecannon]

Like I said, you don't know what you are talking about.

from your article:

So what explains the persistent drumbeat about the impending white minority? A statistical distortion: the exclusion of Hispanic whites. If only non-Hispanic whites are counted, the white population today amounts to 66 percent of the total, and will fall to around 46 percent by 2050.

But excluding whites of Hispanic origin from the overall white population makes no more sense than excluding whites of Slavic or Scandinavian origin. “Hispanic” is not a race. It is an ethnic category. As the Census Bureau repeatedly points out, Hispanics can be of any race. In the 2000 census, 48 percent of Hispanics identified themselves as white; Harvard sociologist Orlando Patterson has characterized them as “white in every social sense of this term.” Bottom line: Of the 46.6 million Hispanics in the United States today, at least 22 million are white — even if it suits some people’s racial or political agenda to pretend otherwise.

On both right and left, there are pressures to treat Hispanics as a distinct racial category. Many on the left covet the political attention and affirmative-action largesse that comes with minority-group status. In some quarters of the right, meanwhile, immigration alarmists warn that Hispanics are overwhelming the nation’s “white” culture, dissolving the bonds of language and patriotism on which American civilization depends.

That sounds like a load of crap. Hispanics ARE a distinct ethnic group, and nowhere near half of them are anything we recognize as white/Caucasian etc.

Iranians are white, even Aryan. East Indians are mostly white, Europeans, as well as folks from the ME and caucus mtns, Ural Mtns, etc.

Mexicans are almost never white. Neither are the vast majority of central and south Americans. They are overwhelmingly American Indian genetically.

The reason why hispanics call themselves "spanish" has to do with the second class status of Indians in SA and CA cultures. It has nothing to do with genetics. Steinbeck covered that in "the Grapes of Wrath".

Unless of course you consider Obama white as well. Because Obama has considerably more caucasian genetic material in his cell nuclei than most hispanics do.

Thanks for the laugh tho, your intellectual dishonesty is hillarious. And you don't have a clue wtf you are talking about.

 

[loosecannon]

Lol.....the inability to afford medical care is not = to a lack of insurance? Wtf? Makes perfect sense! If you can't afford the care you can't afford the insurance.

Moron, people live and die with and without health care and health insurance.

But being with or without health care/insurance is never the CAUSE of their death.

Name the pathology that kills people who don't have health insurance.

CLUE: NOBODY in Cuba has health insurance and yet their life expectancy is longer than ours. NOBODY in Cuba pays for health care and yet their life expectancy is longer than ours.

And LOTS of Americans pay for and have insurance and die anyway because the insurance company doesn't cover specific treatments that could possibly have saved their lives.

There is no cause and effect relationship between having insurance and living or dying except at a statistical level. Meaning a hypothetical level.

 

[CurveLight]

Like I said, you don't know what you are talking about.

from your article:

So what explains the persistent drumbeat about the impending white minority? A statistical distortion: the exclusion of Hispanic whites. If only non-Hispanic whites are counted, the white population today amounts to 66 percent of the total, and will fall to around 46 percent by 2050.

But excluding whites of Hispanic origin from the overall white population makes no more sense than excluding whites of Slavic or Scandinavian origin. “Hispanic” is not a race. It is an ethnic category. As the Census Bureau repeatedly points out, Hispanics can be of any race. In the 2000 census, 48 percent of Hispanics identified themselves as white; Harvard sociologist Orlando Patterson has characterized them as “white in every social sense of this term.” Bottom line: Of the 46.6 million Hispanics in the United States today, at least 22 million are white — even if it suits some people’s racial or political agenda to pretend otherwise.

On both right and left, there are pressures to treat Hispanics as a distinct racial category. Many on the left covet the political attention and affirmative-action largesse that comes with minority-group status. In some quarters of the right, meanwhile, immigration alarmists warn that Hispanics are overwhelming the nation’s “white” culture, dissolving the bonds of language and patriotism on which American civilization depends.

That sounds like a load of crap. Hispanics ARE a distinct ethnic group, and nowhere near half of them are anything we recognize as white/Caucasian etc.

Iranians are white, even Aryan. East Indians are mostly white, Europeans, as well as folks from the ME and caucus mtns, Ural Mtns, etc.

Mexicans are almost never white. Neither are the vast majority of central and south Americans. They are overwhelmingly American Indian genetically.

The reason why hispanics call themselves "spanish" has to do with the second class status of Indians in SA and CA cultures. It has nothing to do with genetics. Steinbeck covered that in "the Grapes of Wrath".

Unless of course you consider Obama white as well. Because Obama has considerably more caucasian genetic material in his cell nuclei than most hispanics do.

Thanks for the laugh tho, your intellectual dishonesty is hillarious. And you don't have a clue wtf you are talking about.

You keep revealing your staggering levels of ignorance. You referenced the Census Bureau as your evidence but apparently you don't know Hispanic can be any race, as defined by.......the Census Bureau. Your response of "that sounds like a load of crap" says it all. Instead of whining like a little bitch why don't you actually look at the numbers on the Census Bureau as pointed out by the article I provided. You haven't supported your claim and the source you cite, the CB, contradicts your claim you dumb ****.

 

[CurveLight]

Lol.....the inability to afford medical care is not = to a lack of insurance? Wtf? Makes perfect sense! If you can't afford the care you can't afford the insurance.

Moron, people live and die with and without health care and health insurance.

But being with or without health care/insurance is never the CAUSE of their death.

Name the pathology that kills people who don't have health insurance.

CLUE: NOBODY in Cuba has health insurance and yet their life expectancy is longer than ours. NOBODY in Cuba pays for health care and yet their life expectancy is longer than ours.

And LOTS of Americans pay for and have insurance and die anyway because the insurance company doesn't cover specific treatments that could possibly have saved their lives.

There is no cause and effect relationship between having insurance and living or dying except at a statistical level. Meaning a hypothetical level.

Wowzza! You are one dumb mother fucker! Nobody has health insurance in Cuba because Cubans cannot get it you resurrected cow turd. Cuban healthcare is all public which means they do not allow private hospitals. If there aren't private hospitals it would be pretty fucking stupid for an insurance company to try and sell health insurance in a place that does not accept.....private health insurance. What else you got super wizard?

 

[Big Black Dog]

The reality behind the Health Care Reform Bill - soon to be law - is that it sucks. It really, really SUCKS. Let's all remember to thank the Democrats.

 

[loosecannon]

You keep revealing your staggering levels of ignorance. You referenced the Census Bureau as your evidence but apparently you don't know Hispanic can be any race, as defined by.......the Census Bureau. Your response of "that sounds like a load of crap" says it all. Instead of whining like a little bitch why don't you actually look at the numbers on the Census Bureau as pointed out by the article I provided. You haven't supported your claim and the source you cite, the CB, contradicts your claim you dumb ****.

Sorry Charlie but the census bereau does define "Hispanic" as an ethnicity. It was your bug fuck insane editorialist who doesn't. That quack actually had the temerity to try to define ethnicity as a social aspect rather than a genetic one. And then went a step further trying to assert that half of all "Hispanics" (the census bureau's term) were actually white not really hispanic at all. You can't make this shit up.



"why don't you actually look at the numbers on the Census Bureau as pointed out by the article I provided."

I did look at the numbers the article pointed out. They specifically said that the census study said that 46% of Americans would be white in 2050. NO FURTHER link to other data was provided! The quack editorialist then went on to fabricate some bullshit rationalization on their own that wasn't supported by the CB study.

If you are so stupid, naive and lsd pummeled as to believe that load of crap then please don't waste your frazzled mind trying to talk to me. I try to stay on the sane side of issues whenever possible. IOW the side you avoid.

 

[loosecannon]

Wowzza! You are one dumb mother fucker! Nobody has health insurance in Cuba because Cubans cannot get it you resurrected cow turd.

abject idiot, WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That seems to be your norm.

Nobody has health insurance in Cuba because NOBODY NEEDS IT! yet they still have longer life expectancy than in the US.

Did you eat a lotta lead paint? Live near a toxic waste site? Spend a lotta days in the landfill as a youth? HOW did you get to be so insanely stupid?

Now go play in traffic and allow the adults to discuss.

 

[CurveLight]

Wowzza! You are one dumb mother fucker! Nobody has health insurance in Cuba because Cubans cannot get it you resurrected cow turd.

abject idiot, WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That seems to be your norm.

Nobody has health insurance in Cuba because NOBODY NEEDS IT! yet they still have longer life expectancy than in the US.

Did you eat a lotta lead paint? Live near a toxic waste site? Spend a lotta days in the landfill as a youth? HOW did you get to be so insanely stupid?

Now go play in traffic and allow the adults to discuss.

You are one dumb bitch. They don't need it because health insurance cannot get you healthcare in Cuba. It is a government run system you unbelievably stupid dickhead.