The Temple Mount -- the differences between Israeli (Western) and Palestinian (Muslim) Discourse

[Sixties Fan]

Baptists? Scofield heresy heresy makes a mess of scripture.

Did I mention Baptists?
Online it says that most Christians believe that Jesus is the god creator of the Universe. That would be many denominations, not just one.

All it takes is for one person to start the idea, and after many centuries many Christians have come to believe it.

 

[Roudy]

It was the city dump.

Islamic propaganda. Nice.

 

[surada]

Did I mention Baptists?
Online it says that most Christians believe that Jesus is the god creator of the Universe. That would be many denominations, not just one.

All it takes is for one person to start the idea, and after many centuries many Christians have come to believe it.

You can find anything online.

 

[Sixties Fan]

You can find anything online.

YOU cannot find the truth online. And that is the main problem with your posts.

 

[surada]

Islamic propaganda. Nice.

Read the treaty of Omar.

 

[Billo_Really]

The Temple Mount Affair: What Has Changed?

This is a long and thorough review of this summer's events concerning the Temple Mount which considers them from multiple points of view, including Jordan, the US and wider Muslim world. I would encourage anyone with time and interest to review it fully.

But I just want to touch on one thing from the article for this thread. And that is the difference between the Israeli (Western) mindset and the Palestinian (Muslim) one.

At the root of the latest flare-up between Israel and the Palestinians/Islamic world is the difference in how the issue is defined. From Israel’s standpoint, the problem revealed in the July 14, 2017, terror attack on the Temple Mount in which two Israeli policemen were murdered by three terrorists from Umm al-Fahm is first and foremost a security problem. One of the ways to address it is to improve security at the location, and metal detectors and security cameras were naturally chosen as means that would contribute to that goal. The talk about the security issue sounded reasonable to Western and, especially, American ears; this is how the whole world deals with problems of this kind at airports and even (as Israeli public diplomacy emphasized) at Islamic and Christian holy places in the Arab world.

The catch is that in the Palestinian and Muslim discourse the central issue is the need to combat what they believe to be guiding the Israeli policy, namely, the Jewish (or Zionist or settler) effort to take over the holy compound that includes the Al-Aqsa Mosque, and to destroy the mosque and the Dome of the Rock so as to turn the Temple Mount into a place of Jewish prayer. Hence, the Palestinians and the Muslims did not see the installation of the metal detectors as a measure to improve security, but instead, as an obvious way to prepare the groundwork for changing the status quo and thereby advancing the objective that they ascribe to the Jews.

The fact that Israel eventually agreed to reverse its decision on the security devices also reflects the cultural and perceptual gaps between the sides. For Israel, the decision was meant to prevent an escalation and enable a return to normal life through a sort of compromise on the security issue (which could be solved in the future if more sophisticated devices could be found). The Americans, as Jared Kushner told congressional interns, saw it the same way. In his view, by convincing Israel to roll back the decision, the United States had scored an achievement; it had been able to talk to both sides and calm the tensions. In Palestinian and Muslim eyes, however, the Israeli concession was something else. On the one hand, it was inevitable, since a Palestinian-Muslim concession on such a sensitive matter would have been inconceivable in Arab eyes; on the other, it bolstered the Palestinian narrative because the Israeli capitulation signified that Israel was prepared to take the Palestinian-Muslim narrative seriously, confirming – in the Palestinians’ view – that what motivated Israel were not security considerations.

In sum, in contrast to the Israeli-Western practical approach, the Muslim culture rejects any compromise on such issues.



It seems apparent to me this is a microcosm of the entire conflict. Israel is addressing practical concerns, willing to compromise (even reverse decisions!) in order to reassure the Arabs of their good intent, make concessions, limit their own control. Arabs, on the other hand, accept the "Al-Aqsa is in danger" libel wholeheartedly and see it as a zero-sum game for which there is no compromise or negotiation.

The questions for this thread:

1. What can Israel do (if anything) to shift the perception of the Palestinian/Muslim narrative?

2. If it can not be shifted, how should Israel proceed?

Feel free to discuss either in the context of the Temple Mount specifically, or in the context of the wider conflict.

Here's a couple of things the Israeli's can do, 1) stop shooting at Palestinian fishermen and farmers and 2) stop attacking humanitarian aid vessels.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Here's a couple of things the Israeli's can do, 1) stop shooting at Palestinian fishermen and farmers and 2) stop attacking humanitarian aid vessels.

Billo.... REALLY!!!!!

You are so beyond behind the times.

These were accusations proven wrong already.

Twist them in any shape you like, REALLY ?????

You will continue to have nothing there.

Words ???? Show evidence.

And it has NOTHING to do with the topic of this thread. The Temple Mount !!!!

You are nothing but a Thread invader, imposing the same anti Israel garbage on all of them.

 

[Billo_Really]

Billo.... REALLY!!!!!

You are so beyond behind the times.

These were accusations proven wrong already.

Twist them in any shape you like, REALLY ?????

You will continue to have nothing there.

Words ???? Show evidence.

And it has NOTHING to do with the topic of this thread. The Temple Mount !!!!

You are nothing but a Thread invader, imposing the same anti Israel garbage on all of them.

I already have! There are YouTube videos showing this exact thing!

 

[Sixties Fan]

I already have! There are YouTube videos showing this exact thing!

I do not care about the videos which you can interpret any way you like.

The evidence goes against what you are trying to portray.

Now, start your own thread about it, because this thread is about the TEMPLE. MOUNT.

 

[Billo_Really]

I do not care about the videos which you can interpret any way you like.

The evidence goes against what you are trying to portray.

Now, start your own thread about it, because this thread is about the TEMPLE. MOUNT.

Wrong! The videos show Palestinians being shot at while they are fishing and farming. There are no other way to interpret these videos. And the same is true for the Temple Mount. All your efforts are about stripping the Palestinians of everything they hold dear.

And you personally, are so disingenous!

 

[Sixties Fan]

Wrong! The videos show Palestinians being shot at while they are fishing and farming. There are no other way to interpret these videos. And the same is true for the Temple Mount. All your efforts are about stripping the Palestinians of everything they hold dear.

And you personally, are so disingenous!

You are easily gullible.
Egypt has shot and killed at least one fisherman as well. Do not bother to say anything bad at them.

Jews/Israelis = Bad
-------------
An IDF naval patrol shot and killed a Palestinian fisherman off the coast of the Gaza Strip on Sunday after his boat strayed from the designated fishing zone, the army said in a statement.

“The suspicious ship left the fishing zone off the northern Gaza Strip, with three suspects on it. In response, the IDF troops conducted the arrest protocol, which included calls [to stop], warning shots in the air and shots at the boat itself,” the IDF statement said.

“As a result of the gunfire, one of the suspects was seriously injured and later died of his wounds,” the army says.

Israel, which has imposed a 10-year blockade on Gaza to prevent arms smuggling to terrorist groups, bans fishing beyond six nautical miles (11 kilometers) off the coast. Boats exceeding that limit are at risk of being considered suspicious, and may be fired upon as possible arms-smuggling vessels.

The Israeli army has in the past intercepted a number of vessels that were attempting to smuggle weapons to the coastal enclave.

Last week, a Gaza fisherman was shot dead by a Egyptian naval patrol after his boat neared the maritime border with Egypt in the south of the coastal enclave. Gaza officials claimed he had never crossed the naval border into Egypt, and called on Cairo to investigate the circumstances of his death.

(full article online)

Gaza fisherman shot dead by Israeli navy

Army says soldiers opened fire on Palestinian boat after it left designated fishing zone

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[Billo_Really]

You are easily gullible.
Egypt has shot and killed at least one fisherman as well. Do not bother to say anything bad at them.

Jews/Israelis = Bad
-------------
An IDF naval patrol shot and killed a Palestinian fisherman off the coast of the Gaza Strip on Sunday after his boat strayed from the designated fishing zone, the army said in a statement.

“The suspicious ship left the fishing zone off the northern Gaza Strip, with three suspects on it. In response, the IDF troops conducted the arrest protocol, which included calls [to stop], warning shots in the air and shots at the boat itself,” the IDF statement said.

“As a result of the gunfire, one of the suspects was seriously injured and later died of his wounds,” the army says.

Israel, which has imposed a 10-year blockade on Gaza to prevent arms smuggling to terrorist groups, bans fishing beyond six nautical miles (11 kilometers) off the coast. Boats exceeding that limit are at risk of being considered suspicious, and may be fired upon as possible arms-smuggling vessels.

The Israeli army has in the past intercepted a number of vessels that were attempting to smuggle weapons to the coastal enclave.

Last week, a Gaza fisherman was shot dead by a Egyptian naval patrol after his boat neared the maritime border with Egypt in the south of the coastal enclave. Gaza officials claimed he had never crossed the naval border into Egypt, and called on Cairo to investigate the circumstances of his death.

(full article online)

Gaza fisherman shot dead by Israeli navy

Army says soldiers opened fire on Palestinian boat after it left designated fishing zone

www.timesofisrael.com

This has nothing to do about Jews! This is an Israeli foreign policy issue.

 

[Billo_Really]

But if you want to talk about Jews, then I fully support the Israeli left. The Likud Party can go fuck itself!

 

[Sixties Fan]

This has nothing to do about Jews! This is an Israeli foreign policy issue.

It is an international maritime border issue. Both Egypt and Israel follow International maritime laws.

All countries have it and behave exactly the same way if there are vessels which are not supposed to come into their waters. First warn and make them leave.
They do not leave and enter the restricted area, they are allowed to shoot if the boats do not stop.

Twist International Maritime Laws all you like.

 

[Billo_Really]

It is an international maritime border issue. Both Egypt and Israel follow International maritime laws.

All countries have it and behave exactly the same way if there are vessels which are not supposed to come into their waters. First warn and make them leave.
They do not leave and enter the restricted area, they are allowed to shoot if the boats do not stop.

Twist International Maritime Laws all you like.

No you do not follow International maritime laws. Stop lying! You limit Palestinian fishermen to 3 miles offshore when the International limit is 12 miles!

 

[Sixties Fan]

It is an international maritime border issue. Both Egypt and Israel follow International maritime laws.

All countries have it and behave exactly the same way if there are vessels which are not supposed to come into their waters. First warn and make them leave.
They do not leave and enter the restricted area, they are allowed to shoot if the boats do not stop.

Twist International Maritime Laws all you like.

United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory | Gaza’s fisheries: record expansion of fishing limit and relative increase in fish catch; shooting and detention incidents at sea continue

“I have been fishing since I was ten years old and fishing is the only source of income for my wife, myself and our 10 children,” said Fadi, a 44-year-old fisher from Gaza city. On 1 April 2019, the Israeli authorities expanded the permissible fishing area along the southern and central parts of...

www.ochaopt.org

 

[Sixties Fan]

Wrong! The videos show Palestinians being shot at while they are fishing and farming. There are no other way to interpret these videos. And the same is true for the Temple Mount. All your efforts are about stripping the Palestinians of everything they hold dear.

And you personally, are so disingenous!

Very human of them. Why does Egypt kill migrants without warning them?

Egyptian police shot dead an African man on Thursday as he tried to slip across the desert border into Israel, bringing to 14 the number of migrants killed at the border this year, security sources said.

The death of the unidentified migrant came as Egypt continues large-scale deportations of Eritrean asylum seekers despite objections by the U.N. refugee agency, which fears for their safety.

"Egyptian police were forced to open fire on a group of African illegal migrants as they attempted to cross barbed wire separating Egypt and Israel, leading one to be killed," an Egyptian security source said.

Reuters | Breaking International News & Views

Find latest news from every corner of the globe at Reuters.com, your online source for breaking international news coverage.

www.reuters.com

 

[Sixties Fan]

Egyptian border guards have shot dead three migrants attempting to cross from Egypt to Israel over the past four days, bringing the total number of migrants shot dead at the border so far this year to 12, Human Rights Watch said today. The Egyptian authorities have arrested a number of refugees over the past month, one of whom remains missing, and the authorities also appear to be preparing to deport two refugees from Darfur back to Sudan, where they face detention and torture, Human Rights Watch said.

"Egyptian guards have made the Sinai border a death zone for migrants trying to flee the country," said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East and North Africa director at Human Rights Watch. "What's more, the Egyptian government has not investigated even a single case of the 69 killings of migrants by border guards since 2007."

Egypt: Guards Kill 3 Migrants on Border with Israel

www.hrw.org

 

[Billo_Really]

Very human of them. Why does Egypt kill migrants without warning them?

Egyptian police shot dead an African man on Thursday as he tried to slip across the desert border into Israel, bringing to 14 the number of migrants killed at the border this year, security sources said.

The death of the unidentified migrant came as Egypt continues large-scale deportations of Eritrean asylum seekers despite objections by the U.N. refugee agency, which fears for their safety.

"Egyptian police were forced to open fire on a group of African illegal migrants as they attempted to cross barbed wire separating Egypt and Israel, leading one to be killed," an Egyptian security source said.

Reuters | Breaking International News & Views

Find latest news from every corner of the globe at Reuters.com, your online source for breaking international news coverage.

www.reuters.com

We're not talking about Egypt, we are talking about you!

 

[Sixties Fan]

No you do not follow International maritime laws. Stop lying! You limit Palestinian fishermen to 3 miles offshore when the International limit is 12 miles!

This is why Israel restricts some of the fishing in some parts. Stop the attacks on Israeli civilians, and they can fish at will :

Israel announced on Thursday it would expand the Gaza fishing zone after restricting it for four days in response to the launching of incendiary balloons into Israel from the coastal enclave.

“Following a security assessment and with approval from the political echelon, it was decided to expand the Gaza Strip fishing zone from six to 12 nautical miles, starting Monday morning,” the army’s Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories said in a statement.

COGAT also said that on Sunday, it would start again allowing the entry into Gaza of food, water, medicine, fishing goods, electrical supplies and agricultural products donated by the international community as part of the reconstruction effort for the Strip.

Israel expands Gaza fishing zone after 4 days of curbs due to arson balloons

As quiet holds, military agrees to expand area to 12 nautical miles, reallow import of food, water, medicine, fishing goods, electrical products and agricultural supplies

www.timesofisrael.com