Unarmed exchange student killed by homeowner

[Pogo]

I live here. Most of us, especially those to the north of me, hunt. We may not have the same game as Montana, but we do pretty well.
Smaller farms too, but many of them, all with predators to dispatch.
Most of my weapons are primarily for hunting and all are legal hunting weapons in Alabama. Any is also quite suitable
If your implication was to label me a "gun nut", I must tell you that I resent the shit out of that.

It isn't. I already know you're not an Alabaman and have one of the sharpest minds on this board. I was speaking of cultural stereotypes. That's always dicey but hey, you started it.

You've already described some incidents you've been in where you demonstrated responsible actions and attitudes toward firearms. Kondor did the same. Both of y'all made the right decisions as you described your experiences. Kaarma didn't. That's what makes your stance odd; you exercised proper restraint, and this guy did not. One would think you'd hold others to the same standard you practice yourself.

Kaarma will get a jury chosen by the voir dire process. The prosecution will be looking for people who are afraid of guns with German last names and the Defense will be looking for people with concealed carry permits that have no compunctions about defending their families, homes and properties. 12 people have to vote to convict If even 2 people vote to acquit, it's very likely the state will not retry the case
A conviction in Montana will be virtually impossible.

Aaaand we're back to where we started, which is that I don't think you know Montanans very well. People who are afraid of guns will be hard to come by in Montana, but that's irrelevant because the case isn't about guns; it's about homicide, which is an action. It isn't about "defense" either, even if the defense will try to play it that way.

Check out the comments I on the Missoulan page I linked if you think you know Montanans' minds. Here's one of the lengthier ones that goes into these aspects:

>> For clarification... Kaarma said “I’m just waiting to shoot some fucking kid” to Felene Sherbondy, his hair stylist. He elaborated that he had been waiting up for three nights with his shotgun to shoot “some fucking kid”. He left the garage door open 5 ½ ft that night, and baited him in with his wife's purse. They set up motion sensors and a baby monitor. He knew there was an intruder inside the garage so we went outside, around to the front of garage where the door is. He then fired 3 shots into the garage at a low level, and 1 at a higher elevation. He called 911 AFTER he fired the shots into the garage, sweeping the entire garage with this battery. THIS IS BASED ON THE POLICE AFFIDAVIT OF PROBABLE CAUSE. It is unknown if everything in the affidavit is correct, but it is the closest thing to concrete data we have on what happened at this point in time.

Should the data enclosed in the affidavit be correct, and Felene’s testimony permissible, this is a case of first degree homicide as Kaarma did not feel threatened for his life, but instead had been planning on leaving an opportune scene for a robber, and to corner and gun them down.

This is Murder, and the Castle Doctrine should not be repealed as the state is properly handling this case. All this talk of the Castle Doctrine legalizing murder is some play on pathos by a few crooked politicians to take away your right to defend your life and your family. The law is working as intended, and that is why Kaarma is being charged.
Here is the castle doctrine. It does not apply if the affidavit is true in its accusations.
45-3-103. Use of force in defense of occupied structure. (1) A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that the use of force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry into or attack upon an occupied structure.
(2) A person justified in the use of force pursuant to subsection (1) is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if:
(a) the entry is made or attempted and the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent an assault upon the person or another then in the occupied structure; or
(b) the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony in the occupied structure. <<​

Those comments btw were running about 70% against what Kaarma did, and that was only in the first couple of days after the incident.

 

[Kondor3]

...Perhaps, but I responded to the various predictions of "what Montanans will do" because I actually have experience with Montanans in Montana, and I don't believe the assumptions from you or Ernie are entirely accurate about them...

You have experience with Montanans, in Montana? How nice for you. Doesn't change the stereotype, though, nor its basis in reality, nor the likelihood that most of the local fodder for a jury pool will conform to such a stereotype in the main.

Opinion?

Yep.

We'll know soon enough which of us was right.

 

[Kondor3]

...Those comments btw were running about 70% against what Kaarma did, and that was only in the first couple of days after the incident.

70% against, in the first couple of days following the incident, before all the surviving participants had been heard from, directly or indirectly?

No surprise there.

In the days following the May 6 disclosure by defense attorney Ryan that Dede's sidekick from Ecuador confessed that Dede was 'garage-hopping' the night of the shooting (intentionally trespasssing, with the intention to commit burglary) and that both he and Dede had engaged in garage-hopping on multiple occasions in the past?

Any data on such numbers after the May 6 disclosure?

I'll bet not.

I'll also bet that if such polling occurred again since that information became public, that that 70% would fall a point or two afterwards.. or 10 or 20 or 30 or 40 or more...

 

[protectionist]

Markus Kaarma, Montana man, pleads not guilty in shooting death of German exchange student - CBS News

Suspect in German exchange student killing pleads not guilty.

Another unarmed teenanger is sacraficed to the pro-gun pitbull grip on a literal interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.

American is the only modern Western country where unarmed burglary seems to warrant a death sentence.

In your OP, the word "unarmed" is mentioned 3 times. That's a lot for a word that is 100% meaningless to the topic.

 

[Noomi]

Americans have a habit of shooting people dead for the crime of stepping onto their property.

 

[Noomi]

Markus Kaarma, Montana man, pleads not guilty in shooting death of German exchange student - CBS News

Suspect in German exchange student killing pleads not guilty.

Another unarmed teenanger is sacraficed to the pro-gun pitbull grip on a literal interpretation of the 2nd Amendment.

American is the only modern Western country where unarmed burglary seems to warrant a death sentence.

In your OP, the word "unarmed" is mentioned 3 times. That's a lot for a word that is 100% meaningless to the topic.

UNARMED means the boy was never a physical threat.

 

[Kondor3]

Americans have a habit of shooting people dead for the crime of stepping onto their property.

True. It happens more often, here, than in many other parts of the world. That's what makes it more dangerous to violate a man's home, here, than in many places. Solution? Don't violate the man's home.

...UNARMED means the boy was never a physical threat.

True, but impossible to tell in the dark; consequently, it's best not to violate a man's home in the dark.

 

[Ernie S.]

I live here. Most of us, especially those to the north of me, hunt. We may not have the same game as Montana, but we do pretty well.
Smaller farms too, but many of them, all with predators to dispatch.
Most of my weapons are primarily for hunting and all are legal hunting weapons in Alabama. Any is also quite suitable
If your implication was to label me a "gun nut", I must tell you that I resent the shit out of that.

It isn't. I already know you're not an Alabaman and have one of the sharpest minds on this board. I was speaking of cultural stereotypes. That's always dicey but hey, you started it.

You've already described some incidents you've been in where you demonstrated responsible actions and attitudes toward firearms. Kondor did the same. Both of y'all made the right decisions as you described your experiences. Kaarma didn't. That's what makes your stance odd; you exercised proper restraint, and this guy did not. One would think you'd hold others to the same standard you practice yourself.

Kaarma will get a jury chosen by the voir dire process. The prosecution will be looking for people who are afraid of guns with German last names and the Defense will be looking for people with concealed carry permits that have no compunctions about defending their families, homes and properties. 12 people have to vote to convict If even 2 people vote to acquit, it's very likely the state will not retry the case
A conviction in Montana will be virtually impossible.

Aaaand we're back to where we started, which is that I don't think you know Montanans very well. People who are afraid of guns will be hard to come by in Montana, but that's irrelevant because the case isn't about guns; it's about homicide, which is an action. It isn't about "defense" either, even if the defense will try to play it that way.

Check out the comments I on the Missoulan page I linked if you think you know Montanans' minds. Here's one of the lengthier ones that goes into these aspects:

>> For clarification... Kaarma said “I’m just waiting to shoot some fucking kid” to Felene Sherbondy, his hair stylist. He elaborated that he had been waiting up for three nights with his shotgun to shoot “some fucking kid”. He left the garage door open 5 ½ ft that night, and baited him in with his wife's purse. They set up motion sensors and a baby monitor. He knew there was an intruder inside the garage so we went outside, around to the front of garage where the door is. He then fired 3 shots into the garage at a low level, and 1 at a higher elevation. He called 911 AFTER he fired the shots into the garage, sweeping the entire garage with this battery. THIS IS BASED ON THE POLICE AFFIDAVIT OF PROBABLE CAUSE. It is unknown if everything in the affidavit is correct, but it is the closest thing to concrete data we have on what happened at this point in time.

Should the data enclosed in the affidavit be correct, and Felene’s testimony permissible, this is a case of first degree homicide as Kaarma did not feel threatened for his life, but instead had been planning on leaving an opportune scene for a robber, and to corner and gun them down.

This is Murder, and the Castle Doctrine should not be repealed as the state is properly handling this case. All this talk of the Castle Doctrine legalizing murder is some play on pathos by a few crooked politicians to take away your right to defend your life and your family. The law is working as intended, and that is why Kaarma is being charged.
Here is the castle doctrine. It does not apply if the affidavit is true in its accusations.
45-3-103. Use of force in defense of occupied structure. (1) A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that the use of force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry into or attack upon an occupied structure.
(2) A person justified in the use of force pursuant to subsection (1) is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if:
(a) the entry is made or attempted and the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent an assault upon the person or another then in the occupied structure; or
(b) the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony in the occupied structure. <<​

Those comments btw were running about 70% against what Kaarma did, and that was only in the first couple of days after the incident.

I appreciate the kind words, Mr Possum and your implied pronouncement that I am not a "gun nut".
While true, I am not a native Alabaman, I do to a great extent, fit in well here. I've even caught myself saying "I'm fixin' ta go ta WalMart, y'all.
I was every bit as pro 2nd Amendment when I lived in Connecticut and Florida. My home in CT had a sticker on the window glass of the front door like this:

And I meant it. I wasn't afraid to say it or to tell people what I would have done if that asshole HAD broken through my front door.
Hell, Pogo, I've even sat in the dark with my .44 in a house under construction after twice having been broken into and having tools stolen.

I've told numerous people that anyone who enters my home uninvited gets dead. Now, am I a "gun nut"?
Felene Sherbondy (I can't wait til SHE'S on the stand) SAYS Kaarma said those things. Perhaps he did, perhaps she is imbellishing the story a bit. I'm sure Mr Kaarma's attorney will cross examine her and we shall see how well her statements hold up.

Has anyone come up with a picture of this Sherbondy woman? I'm thinking this will do until we get an update:

As far s the law goes, Pay close attention to this part:

(b) the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony in the occupied structure.

Reasonably believes Reasonably Believes

It is up to the state to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Markus Kaarma did not reasonably believe that he and his family were in danger.

Damned if I know what he was thinking at the time. I think myself a fairly reasonable man and if someone was in my garage without an invitation around midnight I would expect the worst. I would KILL him. And I think that in Montana, at minimum 25% of the population would do exactly the same thing.
So, if the defense team does their job in the voir dere stage, Dede gets at worst, a hung jury and the prosecution wouldn't retry.
11:1, yeah the state will retry.
10:2, I'd say 50/50, depending on how DA's are hired/elected in Montana.
9:3, (the worst I'd expect) Nope no retrial.

So.... That's the reality of it, Pogo. Dede should have stayed the hell out of the man's garage. HE instigated his own death.

 

[Ernie S.]

Americans have a habit of shooting people dead for the crime of stepping onto their property.

Yes we do. We also have a high number of thugs that stage home invasions and kill the occupants of the home. The fear that you may be assaulted in your own home is very real here.
As The Prophet John Lenon said, "Happiness is a Warm Gun."

 

[Esmeralda]

You've tried to float this turd like eight times now. An army of one. This is not an issue of gun rights, and you can't make it into one. Nobody but nobody has disputed that Markus Kaarma, or anyone else, has the right to own and use a gun. So that's the end of that fantasy, sorry. As already painstakingly pointed out multiple times, this is about the responsible use of that firearm. Guns don't shoot themselves; they need a human to make the wrong decision for them.

Similarly, nobody but nobody has disputed that Markus Kaarma (or anyone else) has the right to defend his home. The entire question you keep desperately trying to morph is whether that is what he was doing.

Sorry, told you before, that kind of deflection bullshit is not gonna fly here...

Newsflash.

This particular sidebar was about the validity of stereotyping as it applies to the likely consistency and sentiments of a jury in this case, not gun-control.

Try to keep up.

I'm starting to infer that by "sidebar" you must mean "tangent" (?) Just a guess, but sidebar is an actual word in publishing... anyway your point was how Montanans would see the Second Amendment.

And I quote, directly from above:


--- which is why I then pointed out (yet again, the ninth (?) time) that this story has nothing to do with Second Amendment, right to bear arms or "gun grabbers". I know that's what you wish it were about but .... it isn't. So whether the jury is comprised of "gun rights folk" (which really doesn't need to be capitalized), is entirely moot. Because the case isn't about Second Amendment or gun grabbers. It's about Markus Kaarma and what he did. It's about the action taken.




No guess what any of that means ...

...As for the concept of Montanans...

We see the validity of stereotyping differently, in the context of this case.

Thank you for your feedback.

Perhaps, but I responded to the various predictions of "what Montanans will do" because I actually have experience with Montanans in Montana, and I don't believe the assumptions from you or Ernie are entirely accurate about them. Culturally they're far from Alabama, and they're not quite as red as you seem to assume. By my count these run more than 2-to-1 that Kaarma's action was way out of line, premeditated, grossly disproportionate to the event, and constitutes murder.

As far as predicting what a local jury will do, our opinions and a $ will buy each of us our own cup of coffee, but if we take a hint from this page of comments made to the Missoulian newspaper back in late April at the time of the event I suspect you'll see what I mean. Kind of a ... wait for it... sidebar.

Thanks for your feedback.

Given how the neighborhood and community reacted to Dede's death, it would not be wise to assume all people from Montana would support what Kaarma did.

 

[Politico]

Americans have a habit of shooting people dead for the crime of stepping onto their property.

Yes we do. We also have a high number of thugs that stage home invasions and kill the occupants of the home. The fear that you may be assaulted in your own home is very real here.
As The Prophet John Lenon said, "Happiness is a Warm Gun."

I guess that means joy is a smoking one lol.

 

[Noomi]

Americans have a habit of shooting people dead for the crime of stepping onto their property.

Yes we do. We also have a high number of thugs that stage home invasions and kill the occupants of the home. The fear that you may be assaulted in your own home is very real here.
As The Prophet John Lenon said, "Happiness is a Warm Gun."

Funny, we don't have the same fear here. But then, we lock our doors and are responsible people.
You must have a problem with crime. I wonder what that is?

 

[Kondor3]

...Given how the neighborhood and community reacted to Dede's death, it would not be wise to assume all people from Montana would support what Kaarma did.

1. I make no assumptions about 'all' such folk.

2. Community reaction manifested before the disclosure of the Ecuadoran sidekick's confession-statement.

 

[thanatos144]

Hi, you have received -11936 reputation points from Pogo.
Reputation was given for this post.

Comment:
Here ya go troll. Eat it.

Regards,
Pogo

Note: This is an automated message.

Proof that I am right ...

 

[Ernie S.]

Americans have a habit of shooting people dead for the crime of stepping onto their property.

Yes we do. We also have a high number of thugs that stage home invasions and kill the occupants of the home. The fear that you may be assaulted in your own home is very real here.
As The Prophet John Lenon said, "Happiness is a Warm Gun."

Funny, we don't have the same fear here. But then, we lock our doors and are responsible people.
You must have a problem with crime. I wonder what that is?

Funny. I guess you don't have the same blend of thugs we have here. We lock our doors and still they try to get in. If one does happen to get in, we shoot them before that harm us.
Responsible people protect their home and family.
The last bit is confusing. Of course I/we have a problem with crime. There are home invasions, carjackings murders, robberies and rapes all the time.
Or do you mean I personally have a problem with crime. First, I resent the implication and second, several states and the Federal Government have decided I could carry a firearm and have access to nuclear research facilities. Criminals don't get CCPs and DOE security clearance.

 

[Katzndogz]

Americans have a habit of shooting people dead for the crime of stepping onto their property.

Especially when they step onto their property with an intent to steal.

 

[Ernie S.]

Hi, you have received -11936 reputation points from Pogo.
Reputation was given for this post.

Comment:
Here ya go troll. Eat it.

Regards,
Pogo

Note: This is an automated message.

Proof that I am right ...

Looks like a resignation to me.

 

[Esmeralda]

In America, except back in the Wild West when they hanged horse theives, death has never been the penalty for theft. Never. Killing someone because they are on your property and 'might' steal something is thinking you have a license to kill. These laws, like the Castle Doctrine, make people think they just shoot and won't be questioned.

I posted one example of that and how the home owner went to prison for life. This is a similar case. Kaarma may go to prison for life.

Watch this program. The home owner thought he had a license to kill anyone who entered his home. He sat it wait like Kaarma. He shot to kill and made sure they were dead. He planned it. He didn't call the police, but lay in wait for them and blew them away. Many similarities. He went to prison for life. Laws like the Castle Doctrine are not a license to kill.

 

[Ernie S.]

In America, except back in the Wild West when they hanged horse theives, death has never been the penalty for theft. Never. Killing someone because they are on your property and 'might' steal something is thinking you have a license to kill. These laws, like the Castle Doctrine, make people think they have a license to kill. I posted one example of that and how the home owners went to prison for life. This is a similar case. Kaarma may go to prison for life.

The odds of getting 12 Montanans to agree with you are infinitesimal.

 

[Kondor3]

...You must have a problem with crime. I wonder what that is?

Vis a vis Australia?

I dunno.

Larger population?

Profoundly more diverse population?

Inner cities that were abandoned by white people 50 or 60 or 70 years ago?

Borders that allow millions of Illegals to flood into the country unchecked?

And on and on and on...

All kinds of possibilities...

MY question is, would you (Australia) do as well with similar problems?

The answer lies in some Alternate Universe...