Unfettered Capitalism

[georgephillip]

Wrong. Politically constructed laws interfere with the distribution of income. That's all they do

Are you admitting corporations interfere with the distribution of income?

 

[bripat9643]

Ask the former citizens of the Soviet Union if they would be willing to pay for that "bit of meddling."

Right after you ask a majority of Russians if they're living better under capitalism.

They aren't living under capitalism. They are living under crony capitalism.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

However, in a free market, absent the Postal Service and government interference, services like FedEx and UPS and other delivery services would likely be cheaper as they would not be legally barred from being competitive, and as prices tend to go down the freer the market

I wonder how long it would take before FedEx and UPS merged under such a system and began functioning as a monopoly (which appears to be the goal of most capitalists)?

Efficiency and Deadweight Loss

In the 1800's, Lysander Spooner started the American Letter Mail Company, which competed directly with the U.S. Postal Service and forced them to lower their prices on several occasions while still not being cheaper or more effective than Spooner's private company. Right up until the U.S. government declared it's illegal to compete with the Postal Service. If you think we can't have competition in 2020 for delivering packages, when we could in 1844, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[bripat9643]

Wrong. Politically constructed laws interfere with the distribution of income. That's all they do

Are you admitting corporations interfere with the distribution of income?

No, I'm admitting the law does. For instance, unions interfere with the distribution of income.

 

[bripat9643]

Subjects like sociology are not science at all, at least the way they are currently practiced, but economics is science. The law of marginal return is as immutable as the theory of gravity.

Diminishing marginal utility has been recognized for centuries:

Marginal utility - Wikipedia

"Perhaps the essence of a notion of diminishing marginal utility can be found in Aristotle's Politics, wherein he writes

"external goods have a limit, like any other instrument, and all things useful are of such a nature that where there is too much of them they must either do harm, or at any rate be of no use"

That doesn't change the fact today's mathematical economics is based on circular reasoning that treats all that has happened as inevitable. If it's all survival of the fittest, then there really is no alternative.

That policy conclusion is built into the economic methodology. If we weren't the fittest, we wouldn't have survived; therefore (by circular reasoning), any alternative is less than fit.

So where is the circular logic used to support the theory of marginal utility?

 

[bripat9643]

You mean agriculture run by government. You're begging the question again.

You asked me for a definition of "large scale agriculture."
I responded by claiming agriculture on a scale sufficiently large enough to feed cities containing thousands of people required centralized organization, i.e., government. There's nothing circular in my reasoning. You simply hate government. Why is that?

In other words, "large scale agriculture" is the kind that requires government. Circular logic.

 

[bripat9643]

Are consumers better off if Windows exists or if it doesn't exist? The latter proposition is clearly idiotic.

Would you say patents and copyrights represent government interference in the "free market"?

That's a complex subject. Some Libertarians would say they are. Others would say not.

 

[georgephillip]

I've heard the government called many things, but never a factor of production. That is insane. How can you have a factor of production that exists because it takes productive people's resources?

How productive could people be without the security provided by government?

Government can also lower the cost of living and doing business by providing public roads, courts, and other infrastructure.

This was glaringly obvious to Republicans and industrialists at the end of the US Civil War:

Up in Arms | Michael Hudson

"MH: The first U.S. business schools in the late 19th century described rentiers as unproductive.

"That is why today’s neoliberals are trying to rewrite the history of Institutionalism in a way that expurgates the Americans who wanted the government to provide public infrastructure to make America a low-cost economy, undersell England and other countries, and evolve into the industrial giant it became by the 1920s.

"JS: That was Simon Patten’s teaching at the Wharton School — government-subsidized public infrastructure as the fourth factor of production.

"MH: Yes. America’s ruling political class tried to make the United States a dominant economy instead of a rentier economy of landlords and financial manipulators.

"JS: How did the robber barons fit into this story?"

 

[georgephillip]

All those things can be provided privately, and have been.

The private for-profit sector can provide roads, bridges, courts, and schools but not without raising the cost of living and doing business.

 

[bripat9643]

All those things can be provided privately, and have been.

The private for-profit sector can provide roads, bridges, courts, and schools but not without raising the cost of living and doing business.

Why would it cost any more for private companies to do it than for government to do it? Private schools are cheaper than government schools, and so is everything else the private sector produces.

 

[georgephillip]

Musk did not know it, moron.

You believe one of the smartest capitalist on the planet was unaware of this fundamental business bias?

The Divine Right of Capital by Marjorie Kelly: A Summary

"Today, our worldview has a bias – that stockholders are to be paid as much as possible, while employees are to be paid as little as possible. 'Income for one group is declared good, and income for another group is declared bad.'

"Nowhere is this more clear than in our financial statements. Here’s the basic formula you’ll find on financial statements:

Capital Income + Retained earnings = Revenue – (Employee income + Cost of materials)"

 

[bripat9643]

Musk did not know it, moron.

You believe one of the smartest capitalist on the planet was unaware of this fundamental business bias?

The Divine Right of Capital by Marjorie Kelly: A Summary

"Today, our worldview has a bias – that stockholders are to be paid as much as possible, while employees are to be paid as little as possible. 'Income for one group is declared good, and income for another group is declared bad.'

"Nowhere is this more clear than in our financial statements. Here’s the basic formula you’ll find on financial statements:

Capital Income + Retained earnings = Revenue – (Employee income + Cost of materials)"

How is the stock market a "business bias?" In case you aren't aware of it, corporations began paying their executives when the government passed tax disincentives for paying them in salary. Many state governments also made so-called "hostile take overs" that made it possible to get rid of incompetent management that was looting the company till.

You have no one but yourself to blame for Elon's compensation.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Musk did not know it, moron.

You believe one of the smartest capitalist on the planet was unaware of this fundamental business bias?

The Divine Right of Capital by Marjorie Kelly: A Summary

"Today, our worldview has a bias – that stockholders are to be paid as much as possible, while employees are to be paid as little as possible. 'Income for one group is declared good, and income for another group is declared bad.'

"Nowhere is this more clear than in our financial statements. Here’s the basic formula you’ll find on financial statements:

Capital Income + Retained earnings = Revenue – (Employee income + Cost of materials)"

Capital Income + Retained earnings = Revenue – (Employee income + Cost of materials)"

Nothing in this statement says good or bad.

 

[georgephillip]

For fuck's sake, NO! I don't want Donald Trump assuming the role of my "provider".

Which institution do you trust to solve the "free rider" problem and other forms of market failure?

What is a Market Failure

"How to Solve Externalities
•It is desirable to have the true, proper allocation that is truly efficient.
•Market naturally does not recognize the discrepancies , therefore an authoritative power can best push the market to the true costs and benefits to closer obtain efficient levels

"Information Asymmetry
•Where one party has more information than the other in a transaction
•Leads to market failure
•Inefficient outcome derives from not having the proper information to make decisions upon
•Demand/Supply functions not properly reflected

"Examples of free market Asymmetric Information
•Car Dealers
•Insurance companies
•Stockbrokers
•Replica or rip-offs of real product
•George Akerlof showed that average value of commodities goes down even for quality goods due to information asymmetry

"Solutions to Asymmetric Information
•Companies have incentive to hide information
–Higher profits at consumer’s expense
•Government mandates full disclosure of relevant information
•Successful examples: FDA, SEC"

 

[georgephillip]

Socialism combines economic power with state power. It means your boss can have you arrested if you piss him off, rather than just fired. He can also have you evicted. And you can't just go get another job, or find another place to live, because there's only one boss, only one landlord.

You seem to be conflating socialism with fascism:

How many people have been arrested for antagonizing their boss?
How many have been evicted (compared to the upcoming Covid-19 eviction tsunami)?

 

[georgephillip]

your definition contains the word it is defining.

Government is the monopoly on the use of force, period.

3 responsibilities every government has towards its citizens

"The concept of government as provider comes next: government as provider of goods and services that individuals cannot provide individually for themselves.

"Government in this conception is the solution to collective action problems, the medium through which citizens create public goods that benefit everyone, but that are also subject to free-rider problems without some collective compulsion."

Horseshit.

 

[georgephillip]

Die because of capitalism? Tell me more!!

"A December 2017 statement from the United Nations Special Rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights notes that, while the US manages to spend 'more [money] on national defence than China, Saudi Arabia, Russia, United Kingdom, India, France, and Japan combined', US infant mortality rates were, as of 2013, 'the highest in the developed world'"

How capitalism is killing us

 

[georgephillip]

I'd choose not stealing the products I use.

Without theft you would be homeless

 

[georgephillip]

They aren't living under capitalism. They are living under crony capitalism.

When and where has there ever been a difference between "capitalism" and "crony-capitalism"?

 

[bripat9643]

For fuck's sake, NO! I don't want Donald Trump assuming the role of my "provider".

Which institution do you trust to solve the "free rider" problem and other forms of market failure?
View attachment 385146
What is a Market Failure

"How to Solve Externalities
•It is desirable to have the true, proper allocation that is truly efficient.
•Market naturally does not recognize the discrepancies , therefore an authoritative power can best push the market to the true costs and benefits to closer obtain efficient levels

"Information Asymmetry
•Where one party has more information than the other in a transaction
•Leads to market failure
•Inefficient outcome derives from not having the proper information to make decisions upon
•Demand/Supply functions not properly reflected

"Examples of free market Asymmetric Information
•Car Dealers
•Insurance companies
•Stockbrokers
•Replica or rip-offs of real product
•George Akerlof showed that average value of commodities goes down even for quality goods due to information asymmetry

"Solutions to Asymmetric Information
•Companies have incentive to hide information
–Higher profits at consumer’s expense
•Government mandates full disclosure of relevant information
•Successful examples: FDA, SEC"

"Market failure" is a con conceived by politicians so they can justify using tax dollars to put their constituents on the payroll.

Yeah, the FDA saved consumers all kinds of money. That's why each new drug costs $1 billion.