What is the proper method of dealing with crowd control ...

[Ravi]

Morain told CNN that 25 tents were in place Friday afternoon despite fliers explaining the campus prohibits overnight camping. It does so for security and health reasons, Katehi said.

After written and verbal warnings, officers reminded the protesters they would be subject to arrest if they did not move their tents from the quad, Morain said. Many protesters did decide to remove their tents and equipment, officials said.

Critics took issue with the college's account, saying the seated protesters did not pose a threat to the officers.

California campus police on leave after pepper-spraying - CNN.com

 

[Intense]

What is the proper method of dealing with people who have repeatedly disobeyed lawful orders to disperse?

Do you think the OWS are intentionally pushing police to the point where the only way the police can enforce the law is to do things which make for "good" anti-cop TV?


Is physically dragging lawbreakers away more appropriate than pepper spray? Some in-the-know have said no, that physically carrying people away comes with its own set of risks and liabilities.

Yes. Apprehend and Prosecute. Use no more force than required. It's not Rocket Science. It's been done before.

 

[Intense]

They also had tents set up which as I understand was against the rules. That's a public health and safety issue. They received (and as I understand it ignored) written orders to take them down.

Then they linked arms and hunkered down to make it as hard as possible for police to accomplish their lawful duty.

the right to link arms shall not be infringed ~ george wallace

Wrong, it is not a Right. It is Passive Resistance though, and should be dealt with accordingly, not by Over Kill.

 

[Intense]

Was the pepper spray right or wrong? I don't know. I await the results of the investigation. Maybe they'll be cleared. Even in California, almost anything is possible.


But whether these officers' actions are deemed to have been too extreme, the government has an obligation to ALL citizens to not stand by and watch while a few are breaking the law.

Either way, the Officers should be removed.

 

[OldUSAFSniper]

Oh my GAWD!! Here we go again... Well, those poor, innocent little victims were just sitting around, linking arms and singing "Kum ba ya" and those big, nasty cops just came right up and abused them!

Really??? And let's say that you own one of those businesses down by Wall Street. Some of those mom and pop shops are being hurt pretty bad. You got maggots walking in and using the restrooms to take 'baths' in. When they leave, the bathrooms are dirty and stinky and trashed up. Just what are the responsibilities of those small businesses in the area? Are they supposed to put up with this crap?

And let's suppose you're one of those cops and the mayor, or someone else in authority tells you that those people "have to be moved." And they don't want to be moved. I mean they have a right to sit on the sidewalk and link arms, but what about the people who want to use those sidewalks to do crazy things like walk to and from class or I don't know, something crazy like go to work to make a living? Who's rights take presedence?

The simple fact is that until you've been there, you don't know squat! Pretty easy to stand on the sidelines and Monday morning quarterback. You whining bunch of perennial bystanders NEVER actually do. You wait for someone else to do what needs to be done and then you piss and moan about the way it was done. And to stand there and tell me that ALL cops are bad is just so damn ignorant that I can't even find the words to tell you how really stupid you are.

What would amaze me is if one of you people who stand around and bad-mouth the cops would actually freakin DO SOMETHING to help your community. Oh I don't know, go work in a homeless shelter this Thanksgiving... Or maybe you could work at a Vet Center and listen to some of the stories these guys tell. Or maybe you could ride along with some of those big, horrible cops and help them pull those children out of that crushed mini van. Or you can explain to that mom and dad why that innocent drunk crossed the center line and killed their only daughter while the drunk walked?

No, I didn't think so. Talk is cheap... the kind that this thread engages in is typical do nothing horse shit...

 

[L.K.Eder]

tactically speaking, it is a losing strategy to pound on the demonstrators. maybe it works for assad.

no legal or pseudo-legal excuse will mitigate the negative PR that goes with those pictures.

blabla, the protestors denied other students the rights to study, BULLSHIT.

but, even if that was right.

the PR battle is lost the second the pictures go out of cops or pseudo-cops doing what the pike guy did.



lol at myself for the tactics and strategy.

 

[paulitician]

'Smaller less-intrusive Government' Conservatives should be ashamed of themselves for defending these kinds of Government abuses of power. Those kids in California didn't deserve to be treated like animals. Big Government always leads to these abuses. So come on Conservatives,get it together.

 

[idb]

Big Government can't leave the People alone. It's what they do. Everytime you turn around you're bumping into Government. They're everywhere. It really is all about the harassment & control. They can't possibly allow the People to be free to protest. They have to be right there instigating trouble. Police seem to be harassing Citizens more than they're helping them these days. And that's why the People are turning on them. I mean how much harassment are the People gonna take? I see much more unrest in the future.

A Dr. Paul-sponsored

The protesters simply do not have any legitiamte right to endlessly engage in behavior which disrupts the lives of so many other people.

They have aright to protest.
They have a right to gather together.
They can combine those concepts.
They can march.
They can carry signs.
They can bang the drums.
They can say all manner of silly stuff.

But they cannot, legitimately, do so endlessly.

It may gripe them, but they do have an obligation, too. And that is an obligation to at some point stop interfering with the lives and livelihood of others.

And when they behave like pigs and refuse to honor the rights of the others, the duty of the government is to step in.

All the libertarian and leftist statist wailing a gnashing of teeth is just so much unpersuasive and unreasonable and irrational hot air.

You're right of course, personal freedoms have to be balanced against imposition on others' freedoms.
The eternal question is where those boundaries are.

 

[idb]

Oh my GAWD!! Here we go again... Well, those poor, innocent little victims were just sitting around, linking arms and singing "Kum ba ya" and those big, nasty cops just came right up and abused them!

Really??? And let's say that you own one of those businesses down by Wall Street. Some of those mom and pop shops are being hurt pretty bad. You got maggots walking in and using the restrooms to take 'baths' in. When they leave, the bathrooms are dirty and stinky and trashed up. Just what are the responsibilities of those small businesses in the area? Are they supposed to put up with this crap?

And let's suppose you're one of those cops and the mayor, or someone else in authority tells you that those people "have to be moved." And they don't want to be moved. I mean they have a right to sit on the sidewalk and link arms, but what about the people who want to use those sidewalks to do crazy things like walk to and from class or I don't know, something crazy like go to work to make a living? Who's rights take presedence?

The simple fact is that until you've been there, you don't know squat! Pretty easy to stand on the sidelines and Monday morning quarterback. You whining bunch of perennial bystanders NEVER actually do. You wait for someone else to do what needs to be done and then you piss and moan about the way it was done. And to stand there and tell me that ALL cops are bad is just so damn ignorant that I can't even find the words to tell you how really stupid you are.

What would amaze me is if one of you people who stand around and bad-mouth the cops would actually freakin DO SOMETHING to help your community. Oh I don't know, go work in a homeless shelter this Thanksgiving... Or maybe you could work at a Vet Center and listen to some of the stories these guys tell. Or maybe you could ride along with some of those big, horrible cops and help them pull those children out of that crushed mini van. Or you can explain to that mom and dad why that innocent drunk crossed the center line and killed their only daughter while the drunk walked?

No, I didn't think so. Talk is cheap... the kind that this thread engages in is typical do nothing horse shit...

No, I didn't think so. Talk is cheap... the kind that this thread engages in is typical do nothing horse shit...

Hehe, you're on USMB now sir!

 

[Amelia]

'Smaller less-intrusive Government' Conservatives should be ashamed of themselves for defending these kinds of Government abuses of power. Those kids in California didn't deserve to be treated like animals. Big Government always leads to these abuses. So come on Conservatives,get it together.

I'm a law-abiding Conservative.

Not the kind who thinks that people should be able to pick and choose which laws they follow.




I'll disagree with those who think it's okay for people to disregard immigration law just as long as they follow all the other laws.

And I'll disagree with people who paint law enforcement officers as the enemy when they are doing their job and trying to deal with people who are breaking the law.


Again, I don't know whether the UC Davis case will be deemed undue force when all the facts are investigated, but I believe in giving LEO's the benefit of the doubt most of the time. They're in a high stress, high stakes, little thanks job and are vulnerable to being thrown under the bus when things go wrong and politicians need a scape goat.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Did the kids disperse after they were sprayed?

Instead of pepper spray why didn't they use water from a fire hose? Of course, that's more cumbersome and more expense . . . .

If a cop tells you to move and you don't, doesn't the cop have the authority to make you move?

How long were the kids 'just sitting' there? Is there a time limit on how long they can 'just sit' there? Were they interfering with anyone or anything? If not, why make them move in the first place?

 

[L.K.Eder]

Did the kids disperse after they were sprayed?

Instead of pepper spray why didn't they use water from a fire hose? Of course, that's more cumbersome and more expense . . . .

If a cop tells you to move and you don't, doesn't the cop have the authority to make you move?

How long were the kids 'just sitting' there? Is there a time limit on how long they can 'just sit' there? Were they interfering with anyone or anything? If not, why make them move in the first place?

those are reasonable questions.

and the failure to answer them is why this episode is a win for the protesters.

 

[idb]

Did anyone in authority (cops, city) try to explain to the protestors what the problem is and why they have to move on?

 

[L.K.Eder]

Did anyone in authority (cops, city) try to explain to the protestors what the problem is and why they have to move on?

legend has it that by sitting there they prevented real american students to reach their classrooms.

other legends have it that cop cars were surrounded.

 

[Liability]

Big Government can't leave the People alone. It's what they do. Everytime you turn around you're bumping into Government. They're everywhere. It really is all about the harassment & control. They can't possibly allow the People to be free to protest. They have to be right there instigating trouble. Police seem to be harassing Citizens more than they're helping them these days. And that's why the People are turning on them. I mean how much harassment are the People gonna take? I see much more unrest in the future.

A Dr. Paul-sponsored

The protesters simply do not have any legitiamte right to endlessly engage in behavior which disrupts the lives of so many other people.

They have aright to protest.
They have a right to gather together.
They can combine those concepts.
They can march.
They can carry signs.
They can bang the drums.
They can say all manner of silly stuff.

But they cannot, legitimately, do so endlessly.

It may gripe them, but they do have an obligation, too. And that is an obligation to at some point stop interfering with the lives and livelihood of others.

And when they behave like pigs and refuse to honor the rights of the others, the duty of the government is to step in.

All the libertarian and leftist statist wailing a gnashing of teeth is just so much unpersuasive and unreasonable and irrational hot air.

You're right of course, personal freedoms have to be balanced against imposition on others' freedoms.
The eternal question is where those boundaries are.

Good. And I agree that it CAN happen that the government (and its agents) may, periodically, cross the line a bit too far.

But, the simple fact of enforcing laws that serve to protect folks other than just the protesters is NOT an indication (at least in and of itself) that the government has gone too far.

 

[Caroljo]

Did the kids disperse after they were sprayed?

Instead of pepper spray why didn't they use water from a fire hose? Of course, that's more cumbersome and more expense . . . .

If a cop tells you to move and you don't, doesn't the cop have the authority to make you move?

How long were the kids 'just sitting' there? Is there a time limit on how long they can 'just sit' there? Were they interfering with anyone or anything? If not, why make them move in the first place?

They were on a college campus, so someone had to have called the police because they were disrupting something or causing some kind of problem. If they were just hanging around and not in anyone's way, this probably wouldn't have happened.

 

[mskafka]

How about Long Range Acoustic Devices? I know that there is a big potential for hearing loss, but if people really need to be cleared out, this is a non-violent way to do it.

Has this been utilized?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSMyY3_dmrM]Long Range Acoustic Device (LRAD) G20 Pittsburgh - YouTube[/ame]

Just a thought.

 

[Amelia]

Did the kids disperse after they were sprayed?

Instead of pepper spray why didn't they use water from a fire hose? Of course, that's more cumbersome and more expense . . . .

If a cop tells you to move and you don't, doesn't the cop have the authority to make you move?

How long were the kids 'just sitting' there? Is there a time limit on how long they can 'just sit' there? Were they interfering with anyone or anything? If not, why make them move in the first place?

They had tents up. I don't know how long the tents had been up. If I understand correctly the tents were a violation. I don't know if just blocking the sidewalk was.

They were given written instructions to clear the tents but apparently they disobeyed the orders.

Police told the TV station that students were given until 3 p.m. on Friday to dismantle their tents from the university's quad.

A spokesman for the protesters told the News that they had also received written warnings to remove their tents.

As with many Occupy protests around the country, the demonstrators refused to cede to the cops' demands and defied officials' orders.

Read more: UC Davis investigating student pepper-sprayed by cop during 'Occupy' protest; Chancellor refuses to resign - NY Daily News

 

[Ringel05]

tactically speaking, it is a losing strategy to pound on the demonstrators. maybe it works for assad.

no legal or pseudo-legal excuse will mitigate the negative PR that goes with those pictures.

blabla, the protestors denied other students the rights to study, BULLSHIT.

but, even if that was right.

the PR battle is lost the second the pictures go out of cops or pseudo-cops doing what the pike guy did.



lol at myself for the tactics and strategy.

Yup, the protesters and their supporters know how to manipulate the situation and exploit the police reaction with selective video cuts and accusations. Not saying the cops don't occasionally go overboard but then again we're not the officer or officers in the middle of the situation. Cops should start doing their own videos starting from when the situation starts, showing everything that leads up to any "use of force" and the follow up to minimize the potential for accidental or intentional misinformation release.

 

[L.K.Eder]

tactically speaking, it is a losing strategy to pound on the demonstrators. maybe it works for assad.

no legal or pseudo-legal excuse will mitigate the negative PR that goes with those pictures.

blabla, the protestors denied other students the rights to study, BULLSHIT.

but, even if that was right.

the PR battle is lost the second the pictures go out of cops or pseudo-cops doing what the pike guy did.



lol at myself for the tactics and strategy.

Yup, the protesters and their supporters know how to manipulate the situation and exploit the police reaction with selective video cuts and accusations. Not saying the cops don't occasionally go overboard but then again we're not the officer or officers in the middle of the situation. Cops should start doing their own videos starting from when the situation starts, showing everything that leads up to any "use of force" and the follow up to minimize the potential for accidental or intentional misinformation release.

from what i hear and know, units who are used to break up protests have their own documentary. that's how they prove "resistance to arrest", e.g.

maybe the keystone kops at uc davis did not have that.

but it is hard to imagine how piggy pike's action could be somehow asplaind by footage shot by the keystone kops.