What should abortion laws be?

[Bern80]

Because women have miscarriages and stillbirths all the fucking time, moron. As long as you call me names, I will call you names, also. If that is all you can do here, lol..
It is impossible to ensure that ALL women even KNOW they are pregnant, also. You CANT enforce rights for all fetuses. That is ridiculous. So ridiculous.. How the fuck can a FETUS have fucking RIGHTS as an idividual when all it is is something that lives pretty much in a COCOON??? Pah-lease.
Plus, what are you going to do, sit there are charge women with accidental homicide charges when they jump on a trampoline and later lose the 5 week gestated embryo? ...or child neglect when they get beat up by their husbands and lose the pregnancy status? Give it up, man. That is insane. Fetuses are NOT people. They are humans, but they do not have the capacity of individualism, and cannot be considered individuals, because of that simple very REAL fact.

The OP is right on this. Your feminist bull shit aside, all this is about is when an organism is human. What is asanine is your case that there is a distinction between a person and a human. They're one in the same as far as most of us are concerned. Not some contrivance for convenience sake. The point is you would not condone murder of an innocent person/human/life and it is pure cowardice, and selfishness to argue that a baby is somehow less than a person/human/life 30 seconds, 30 minutes, 30 hours, days or weeks, before it is expelled from the womb. It has all of the sames senses prior to being expelled from the womb as it does after it leaves the womb. People like you make these ridiculous arguments solely so you can sleep at night.

The interesting thing about this one is how far the position of many have come. At one time this really was a black or white issue for most. Either abortion anytime or abortion never. Many pro-lifers have made a fair compromise becauese they are not so naive to believe that there is functioning person at the point of conception. But it is the abortion rights activists that won't budge. Abortion whenever for whatever. Further proving the lefts abhoration for anything remotely resembling personal accountability.

 

[JD_2B]

It is more than that. It is taking another life that is totally independent of you and throwing it away because of inconvenience. That is the crux of the issue. The true scary part is many of those are willing to brutally kill a child by chopping them up into pieces at birth out of that inconvenience of putting them up for adoption. The fact there are people that defend that position really shows the depths of depravity of this society and the unwillingness to accept the consequences of the lives we lead.

The day you can adopt an embryo, and take it home with you, without taking the woman as well, let me know.

 

[AllieBaba]

Exactly.

PS...I would love anyone who refers to a baby as a parasite to please provide a link to a scientific study which proves it is a parasite.

 

[AllieBaba]

It is more than that. It is taking another life that is totally independent of you and throwing it away because of inconvenience. That is the crux of the issue. The true scary part is many of those are willing to brutally kill a child by chopping them up into pieces at birth out of that inconvenience of putting them up for adoption. The fact there are people that defend that position really shows the depths of depravity of this society and the unwillingness to accept the consequences of the lives we lead.

The day you can adopt an embryo, and take it home with you, without taking the woman as well, let me know.

Are you high? Hello, donated eggs and/or sperm are often used for in-vitro.

http://www.health.state.ny.us/publications/1127/

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Exactly.

PS...I would love anyone who refers to a baby as a parasite to please provide a link to a scientific study which proves it is a parasite.

look up the definition of a parasitic relationship

 

[2Parties]

I'm gonna abort myself if I ever see another abortion thread.

 

[AllieBaba]

"A parasite is defined as an organism of one species living in or on an organism of another species (a heterospecific relationship) and deriving its nourishment from the host (is metabolically dependent on the host). (See Cheng, T.C., General Parasitology, p. 7, 1973.)"

"When a parasite invades host tissue, the host tissue will sometimes respond by forming a capsule (of connective tissue) to surround the parasite and cut it off from other surrounding tissue (examples would be Paragonimus westermani, lung fluke, or Oncocerca volvulus, a nematode worm causing cutaneous filariasis in the human).
b) When the human embryo or fetus attaches to and invades the lining tissue of the mother's uterus, the lining tissue responds by surrounding the human embryo and does not cut it off from the mother, but rather establishes a means of close contact (the placenta) between the mother and the new human being."

"Parasitism usually involves an immunological response on the part of the host. (See Cheng, T.C., General Parasitology, p. 8.) "

"A parasite is generally detrimental to the reproductive capacity of the invaded host. The host may be weakened, diseased or killed by the parasite, thus reducing or eliminating the host's capacity to reproduce."
Libertarians for Life - Why the Embryo or Fetus Is Not a Parasite

Undoubtedly a biased site, but they provide scientific references to go with their statements.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

A parasitic relationship is one in which one member of the association benefits while the other is harmed.


Ahmadjian, Vernon; Paracer, Surindar (2000), Symbiosis: an introduction to biological associations, Oxford [Oxfordshire]: Oxford University Press, ISBN 0-195-11806-5

The fetus is a biotrophic parasite; it's simply not usually referred to as such for the sake of sensitivity. Because of the negative association ascribed to the term 'parasite', it is common for people to say that a parasite must be a different species; this isn't based on any reasoning, logic, or scientific points, but rather on the desire to not call one's own child a parasite.

 

[AllieBaba]

You know, I actually looked into "parasite". It was used to refer to leeching relatives before it was used as a biological term.

So meh, either way. Children are parasites too.

 

[Contumacious]

Exactly.

PS...I would love anyone who refers to a baby as a parasite to please provide a link to a scientific study which proves it is a parasite.

S: (n) parasite (an animal or plant that lives in or on a host (another animal or plant); it obtains nourishment from the host without benefiting or killing the host)

 

[Immanuel]

I support abortion up to 6 weeks after conception. This is based on the evidence I've seen which suggests that the regions of the brain which give rise to sentience develop possibly as early as 7 weeks after conception. Once this occurs, we are dealing with a sentient mind- a true person. Prior o the emergence of the mind capable of perceiving its own existence and/or the world around it , we are dealing with a living entity that possesses no selfhood. Thus, ending the life of such a creature is fundamentally the same as letting the body of the braindead die- the individual does not exist as such and the tissue itself possesses only sentimental value in its association in our minds with the individual.

This being said, finding information on fetal brain development has been difficult and I remain open to evidence indicating a different timeline.

Although, I don't agree with your cutoff at 6 weeks, I can at least respect your opinion of this and the basis by which you arrived at it. My belief that the being is a human from the moment of conception on tells me that when sentience begins is irrelevant and that unless there are extenuating circumstances affecting the furtherance of life of the mother, the fetal life should be protected.

Immie

 

[AllieBaba]

Exactly.

PS...I would love anyone who refers to a baby as a parasite to please provide a link to a scientific study which proves it is a parasite.

S: (n) parasite (an animal or plant that lives in or on a host (another animal or plant); it obtains nourishment from the host without benefiting or killing the host)

That's a link?

 

[JD_2B]

Exactly.

PS...I would love anyone who refers to a baby as a parasite to please provide a link to a scientific study which proves it is a parasite.

S: (n) parasite (an animal or plant that lives in or on a host (another animal or plant); it obtains nourishment from the host without benefiting or killing the host)

Actually, a parasite has to either move to another host to survive, or some other types will spend it's entire life within the host, to survive, and dying only when it exits that host.

This is not the case with fetuses. Fetuses are not parasites.

 

[JD_2B]

I support abortion up to 6 weeks after conception. This is based on the evidence I've seen which suggests that the regions of the brain which give rise to sentience develop possibly as early as 7 weeks after conception. Once this occurs, we are dealing with a sentient mind- a true person. Prior o the emergence of the mind capable of perceiving its own existence and/or the world around it , we are dealing with a living entity that possesses no selfhood. Thus, ending the life of such a creature is fundamentally the same as letting the body of the braindead die- the individual does not exist as such and the tissue itself possesses only sentimental value in its association in our minds with the individual.

This being said, finding information on fetal brain development has been difficult and I remain open to evidence indicating a different timeline.

Although, I don't agree with your cutoff at 6 weeks, I can at least respect your opinion of this and the basis by which you arrived at it. My belief that the being is a human from the moment of conception on tells me that when sentience begins is irrelevant and that unless there are extenuating circumstances affecting the furtherance of life of the mother, the fetal life should be protected.

Immie

So, the 1/3rd of all pregnant women who end up having a miscarriage before they ever knew they were pregnant, should be required to report the "death" authorities, and subjected to ongoing testing, etc, to avoid prosecution for "foul play"???

Yikes.

I disagree.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

I support abortion up to 6 weeks after conception. This is based on the evidence I've seen which suggests that the regions of the brain which give rise to sentience develop possibly as early as 7 weeks after conception. Once this occurs, we are dealing with a sentient mind- a true person. Prior o the emergence of the mind capable of perceiving its own existence and/or the world around it , we are dealing with a living entity that possesses no selfhood. Thus, ending the life of such a creature is fundamentally the same as letting the body of the braindead die- the individual does not exist as such and the tissue itself possesses only sentimental value in its association in our minds with the individual.

This being said, finding information on fetal brain development has been difficult and I remain open to evidence indicating a different timeline.

Although, I don't agree with your cutoff at 6 weeks, I can at least respect your opinion of this and the basis by which you arrived at it. My belief that the being is a human from the moment of conception on tells me that when sentience begins is irrelevant and that unless there are extenuating circumstances affecting the furtherance of life of the mother, the fetal life should be protected.

Immie

Sorry for the late reply. Your post was buried under JD's attempts to get social security by proving herself retarded.

My question to you is this: what, then of the braindead or children born with a brainstem but no other brain structures?

 

[AllieBaba]

I support abortion up to 6 weeks after conception. This is based on the evidence I've seen which suggests that the regions of the brain which give rise to sentience develop possibly as early as 7 weeks after conception. Once this occurs, we are dealing with a sentient mind- a true person. Prior o the emergence of the mind capable of perceiving its own existence and/or the world around it , we are dealing with a living entity that possesses no selfhood. Thus, ending the life of such a creature is fundamentally the same as letting the body of the braindead die- the individual does not exist as such and the tissue itself possesses only sentimental value in its association in our minds with the individual.

This being said, finding information on fetal brain development has been difficult and I remain open to evidence indicating a different timeline.

Although, I don't agree with your cutoff at 6 weeks, I can at least respect your opinion of this and the basis by which you arrived at it. My belief that the being is a human from the moment of conception on tells me that when sentience begins is irrelevant and that unless there are extenuating circumstances affecting the furtherance of life of the mother, the fetal life should be protected.

Immie

So, the 1/3rd of all pregnant women who end up having a miscarriage before they ever knew they were pregnant, should be required to report the "death" authorities, and subjected to ongoing testing, etc, to avoid prosecution for "foul play"???

Yikes.

I disagree.

Er..a miscarriage isn't an abortion.

 

[AllieBaba]

Besides which, if they miscarry BEFORE they know they're pregnant, how do they know they're having a miscarriage and not just a heavy period?

I'd love to see where the 1/3 number came from. Have a link and explanation for that number?

 

[Immanuel]

I support abortion up to 6 weeks after conception. This is based on the evidence I've seen which suggests that the regions of the brain which give rise to sentience develop possibly as early as 7 weeks after conception. Once this occurs, we are dealing with a sentient mind- a true person. Prior o the emergence of the mind capable of perceiving its own existence and/or the world around it , we are dealing with a living entity that possesses no selfhood. Thus, ending the life of such a creature is fundamentally the same as letting the body of the braindead die- the individual does not exist as such and the tissue itself possesses only sentimental value in its association in our minds with the individual.

This being said, finding information on fetal brain development has been difficult and I remain open to evidence indicating a different timeline.

Although, I don't agree with your cutoff at 6 weeks, I can at least respect your opinion of this and the basis by which you arrived at it. My belief that the being is a human from the moment of conception on tells me that when sentience begins is irrelevant and that unless there are extenuating circumstances affecting the furtherance of life of the mother, the fetal life should be protected.

Immie

So, the 1/3rd of all pregnant women who end up having a miscarriage before they ever knew they were pregnant, should be required to report the "death" authorities, and subjected to ongoing testing, etc, to avoid prosecution for "foul play"???

Yikes.

I disagree.

And where did I state such a thing?

No where did I say anything about having to report anything. Also a miscarriage is nothing more than a natural death... it was not induced at the hands of another. Big difference there.

Oh and by the way JD, if I am not mistaken, miscarriages are reported by the doctors when they are known of. My wife miscarried our first child. It was heartbreaking to the both of us. Three days after we discovered that she was pregnant she lost the baby. We took the remains to the hospital with us (and no we could not identify it as a baby) but after the exam we were told that she had mis-carried. I believe, although am not certain, that the hospital had to report this to the state. It was a tough and scary thing in our lives.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

I support abortion up to 6 weeks after conception. This is based on the evidence I've seen which suggests that the regions of the brain which give rise to sentience develop possibly as early as 7 weeks after conception. Once this occurs, we are dealing with a sentient mind- a true person. Prior o the emergence of the mind capable of perceiving its own existence and/or the world around it , we are dealing with a living entity that possesses no selfhood. Thus, ending the life of such a creature is fundamentally the same as letting the body of the braindead die- the individual does not exist as such and the tissue itself possesses only sentimental value in its association in our minds with the individual.

This being said, finding information on fetal brain development has been difficult and I remain open to evidence indicating a different timeline.

Although, I don't agree with your cutoff at 6 weeks, I can at least respect your opinion of this and the basis by which you arrived at it. My belief that the being is a human from the moment of conception on tells me that when sentience begins is irrelevant and that unless there are extenuating circumstances affecting the furtherance of life of the mother, the fetal life should be protected.

Immie

Sorry for the late reply. Your post was buried under JD's attempts to get social security by proving herself retarded.

My question to you is this: what, then of the braindead or children born with a brainstem but no other brain structures?

Brain dead... would be as I understand it a natural death. I would also understand that this would mean that the child would be born and then determined to be still born. Although that may not be what you mean by your question. If you meant braindead while still within the womb, then I would understand that would be taken care of by a natural miscarriage.

In your second example, I would understand that case to be one of imminent death anyway. If you are talking of whether or not an abortion should be allowed... I'd have to say that death is imminent and that should be left up to the doctor. Is there anything that can be done to save the child? If not, then maybe an abortion would be preferred rather than having a mother go through the trauma of the remaining pregnancy, birth and death of the child. But, this should not be left up to only one doctor. A review of the case should be undertaken.

Immie

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Brain dead... would be as I understand it a natural death. I would also understand that this would mean that the child would be born and then determined to be still born.

Braindeath does not always lead to the death of the body. The brainstem will keep the heartand lungs going even if the rest of the brain is gone.