What should abortion laws be?

[Contumacious]

You’re damn right it should be illegal and there is not a SINGLE GOD DAMN ARGUMENT OUT THERE THAT RESONABLE SUPPORTS PARTAL BIRTH ABORTIONS AS THEY ARE ACCOMPLISHED DURING THE BIRTHING PROSESS.

There are numerous reasons to continue partial birth abortions.

1- Women are completely sovereign over the bodies., They are FREE people . They don't owe you or the state an explanation.

2- Fetuses are POTENTIAL human beings, as such, they have no rights until birth.

3. If fetuses are important to you, let the putative mothers know that you will adopt their offsprings, no questions asked.


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[AllieBaba]

Children aren't a punishment. However, pregnancy is a consequence.

I'm not going to even address the rest of your insane post. Yes, women are sovereign over their own bodies. That doesn't mean they can use their bodies to kill others, inside or outside of it.

If you aren't ready to have a child, don't have sex.

Pretty basic stuff.

 

[Cecilie1200]

A parasitic relationship is one in which one member of the association benefits while the other is harmed.


Ahmadjian, Vernon; Paracer, Surindar (2000), Symbiosis: an introduction to biological associations, Oxford [Oxfordshire]: Oxford University Press, ISBN 0-195-11806-5

The fetus is a biotrophic parasite; it's simply not usually referred to as such for the sake of sensitivity. Because of the negative association ascribed to the term 'parasite', it is common for people to say that a parasite must be a different species; this isn't based on any reasoning, logic, or scientific points, but rather on the desire to not call one's own child a parasite.

Look at your own definition. The mother isn't harmed by the fetus, so a fetus is not a parasite.

As a matter of fact, I've always benefitted to a certain extent from pregnancy. It has its discomforts, as any sudden increase in body mass would, but it also produces positive aspects.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Although, I don't agree with your cutoff at 6 weeks, I can at least respect your opinion of this and the basis by which you arrived at it. My belief that the being is a human from the moment of conception on tells me that when sentience begins is irrelevant and that unless there are extenuating circumstances affecting the furtherance of life of the mother, the fetal life should be protected.

Immie

So, the 1/3rd of all pregnant women who end up having a miscarriage before they ever knew they were pregnant, should be required to report the "death" authorities, and subjected to ongoing testing, etc, to avoid prosecution for "foul play"???

Yikes.

I disagree.

Er..a miscarriage isn't an abortion.

JD seems to think that because people sometimes die on their own, that means it's okay to kill them.

Hmmm. People fall off of cliffs on their own sometimes. I doubt JD would think that makes it okay for me to push her off of one.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Brain dead... would be as I understand it a natural death. I would also understand that this would mean that the child would be born and then determined to be still born.

Braindeath does not always lead to the death of the body. The brainstem will keep the heartand lungs going even if the rest of the brain is gone.

But, my understanding is that brain death is defined as death.

I am not aware of this being an issue at birth, not to say that it is not, so I don't know that my answer is sufficient or even correct. I do know of the defect called Hydroencephalitis (I think that is it) where the child is born without a brain (or is it only the brainstem) but these children do not as far as I know live.

What do you want me to say? Mom should be forced to give birth and endure the extremely short life of such a child? No effing way I would do that to any mother!

In cases such as this, I tend to realize that I don't know what is best in every case.

Immie

You're thinking of ancephaly, the lack of a brain. Hydroencephalitis is swelling of the brain caused by too much fluid.

 

[AllieBaba]

I'm still dying to know how she could count miscarriages where the mothers didn't know they were pregnant.

If they didn't know they were pregnant...they wouldn't know they were miscarrying...

It makes no sense atall.

 

[Contumacious]

Children aren't a punishment.

They are if the mom is not emotionally or financially ready.

However, pregnancy is a consequence.

That 's the reason we have abortion on demand.

If you aren't ready to have a child, don't have sex.

We are going to fuck 24/7 - we love it. Don't blame me because no one will touch you with a ten foot pole.

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[☭proletarian☭]

Who's punishing them, then? God?

Burden and punishment are not equivalent terms. But then, we've yet to see you or JD say anything intelligent, so I'm not surprised by this latest display of stupidity.

 

[AllieBaba]

Children aren't a punishment.

They are if the mom is not emotionally or financially ready.

However, pregnancy is a consequence.

That 's the reason we have abortion on demand.

If you aren't ready to have a child, don't have sex.

We are going to fuck 24/7 - we love it. Don't blame me because no one will touch you with a ten foot pole.

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Who the fuck is "we"?

Abortion on demand is baby murder on demand. Embrace it, loser.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Enough about dead babies that grow and are alive cause they grow but aren't alive because they aren't breathing at the momwent and human-dog hybrids (as amusing as JD's little comedy routine was for a short while)...

Does anyone have any objection to this reasoning?

I support abortion up to 6 weeks after conception. This is based on the evidence I've seen which suggests that the regions of the brain which give rise to sentience develop possibly as early as 6-7 weeks after conception. Once this occurs, we are dealing with a sentient mind- a true person. Prior to the emergence of the mind capable of perceiving its own existence and/or the world around it, we are dealing with a living entity that possesses no selfhood. Thus, ending the life of such a creature is fundamentally the same as letting the body of the braindead die- the individual does not exist as such and the tissue itself possesses only sentimental value in its association in our minds with the individual.

This being said, finding information on fetal brain development has been difficult and I remain open to evidence indicating a different timeline.

APPENDIX:I also support abortion as a necessary, if undesirable, option in medical emergencies threaten the life of mother and/or child (it's better to save one life than to allow two to die)

 

[AllieBaba]

It's better than partial birth, but just because we aren't able to detect brain activity doesn't mean it's not human, or it's not killing a human to destroy it.

Babies didn't used to be able to survive if they were more than 8 weeks premature. Should we have been aborting them up to 7 months then, because technology hadn't caught up with their needs?

I don't believe in the destruction of any human force, regardless of how capable that person is of thinking or communicating to us.

 

[Contumacious]

Children aren't a punishment.

They are if the mom is not emotionally or financially ready.



That 's the reason we have abortion on demand.

If you aren't ready to have a child, don't have sex.

We are going to fuck 24/7 - we love it. Don't blame me because no one will touch you with a ten foot pole.

.

Who the fuck is "we"?

It doesn't include you, that's for sure.

Abortion on demand is baby murder on demand. Embrace it, loser.

You are going to die with your hymen intact. Embrace it loser.

.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

It's better than partial birth, but just because we aren't able to detect brain activity doesn't mean it's not human, or it's not killing a human to destroy it.

I never denied that it's human. It's human by definition and any DNA lab can confirm that. I see this issue as being very similar to that of braindeath and 'pulling the plug'. If the mind is gone, the individual no longer exists. You're no longer caring for the person, merely for the body which once housed the person. Similarly, in early-stage abortion we're dealing with a human,, but no mind has emerged. There is no individual or sentience- the very thing that separates a human from a plant or a bacterium. In such a scenario we're dealing with a human animal, but not with a person.

While it's true that not being able to detect brainwaves does not necessarily mean they're not present, not being able to detect a heartbeat doesn't mean someone's heart's not beating (although such instances are rare with modern medicine). However, if the structures of the brain which gives rise to the mind have not developed, there can be no question that they are not active, for they do not even exist yet.

Babies didn't used to be able to survive if they were more than 8 weeks premature. Should we have been aborting them up to 7 months then, because technology hadn't caught up with their needs?

I never forwarded biological viability as an argument and have refuted it in this very thread as highly subjective and of little, if any, value, so I'm not sure whom you're you're referring to.

I don't believe in the destruction of any human force, regardless of how capable that person is of thinking or communicating to us.

Should we, then, keep a body alive on life support forever? should we replace organs as they fail until we have little flesh at all and keep the machiones running for no intelligible reason? You reach a point where it's just absurd and I've seen no other meaningful measure than what I've forwarded (although I am by no means the only one to propose it). Your words may sound good, but they're not really meaningful and your ideals are neither pragmatic or useful in the real world.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Cuminthetumy, attacking Allie on a personal level does nothing to refute her(?) assertions or strengthen your own arguments.

Can we please have a mature conversation like adults? We got enough childishness from, JD's posts to last the rest of the thread.

 

[Contumacious]

Cuminthetumy, attacking Allie on a personal level does nothing to refute her(?) assertions or strengthen your own arguments.

Can we please have a mature conversation like adults? We got enough childishness from, JD's posts to last the rest of the thread.

Identify the FACTS upon which you rely to conclude that Allie's arguments are pure as the white driven snow. Specifically, that she does not have a hidden agenda.

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[☭proletarian☭]

Identify the FACTS upon which you rely to conclude that Allie's arguments are pure as the white driven snow

Well, seeing as I'm disagreeing with Allie right now, I''m sure she'll present her reasoning and evidence during the course of our discussion if you'll be so kind as to stfu for a while while the grown-ups are talking.

 

[HUGGY]

What should abortion laws be?


Retroactive.

 

[AllieBaba]

They are if the mom is not emotionally or financially ready.



That 's the reason we have abortion on demand.



We are going to fuck 24/7 - we love it. Don't blame me because no one will touch you with a ten foot pole.

.

Who the fuck is "we"?

It doesn't include you, that's for sure.

Abortion on demand is baby murder on demand. Embrace it, loser.

You are going to die with your hymen intact. Embrace it loser.

.

Hard to do with 4 kids and a granddaughter.

I guess it is pretty prestigious to be the first 12 y.o. in the class who gets knocked up by her brother, but you need to step back a minute and think things through, to save your uterus and your sanity for a day when you might acutally need it.

Just say no.

 

[AllieBaba]

Cuminthetumy, attacking Allie on a personal level does nothing to refute her(?) assertions or strengthen your own arguments.

Can we please have a mature conversation like adults? We got enough childishness from, JD's posts to last the rest of the thread.

Identify the FACTS upon which you rely to conclude that Allie's arguments are pure as the white driven snow. Specifically, that she does not have a hidden agenda.

.

What the fuck are you talking about, idiot? How on earth does another poster prove my arguments are pure as the driven snow, or that I DON'T have a hidden agenda?

Have you had any education at all? Because I'm starting to feel sort of bad.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Whether she has an agenda or not doesn't matter; it's the validity of the arguments that matters.