White man shoots innocent black teen....

[Procrustes Stretched]

I didn't say he was. It was just AN example of the law of justification.

And frankly, I don't know that Zimmerman has ANY valid claim (even a color-able one) to the defense of justification or necessity.

All I WAS saying is that there ARE situations where even though the cops know full well that a person pulled the trigger, they also see no valid probable cause for an arrest. Justification (self defense or defense of another) is but one set of examples of that principle.

Ok I got you.

Off topic:

It LOOKS like the lass in your avie is convinced that the beer goes right to her tits.

She might be right.

I've asked this and can't seem to get a straight (white?) answer:

What is it about MarcATL and Inthemiddle that they want a lynch mob before all evidence is in? Are their minds affected by some kind of mental illness? This is a serious question. MarcATL and a few other people have become completely unhinged over a tragedy that is not theirs.

What is it about lonely shut-ins with internet service that makes them so angry and irrational?

 

[koshergrl]

They're liberals.

 

[The Gadfly]

I honestly think it's too late in the game to ever truly determine WHO made it physical beyond the shadow of a doubt.

I agree. Zimmerman's going to walk, regardless of whether he's ultimately charged.

I know what I believe happened. I heard the tapes. I saw the map and the streets and where the initial call was placed and where the shooting occurred. I saw how far Zimmerman followed (chased?) Martin. Two-tenths of a mile isn't very far, but in a situation like this it's far enough for Zimmerman to have heeded the advice of the dispatcher and let the police check Martin out. IMO he went looking for a confrontation. I don't see a 17 year old, 140 lb kid with a can of ice tea as his only weapon initiating an attack on a man who not only outweighs him by a hundred pounds, but is toting a gun besides.

Zimmerman saw himself as the community protector. He saw someone he didn't recognize, and didn't believe belonged in his neighborhood. He took it upon himself to track this kid, and things spiraled out of control. Once it was over, and Zimmerman realized what he'd done, he had an "oh shit!" moment. He knew that people had to have heard the cries for help. He knew he was fucked if police decided he had no cause to shoot this young man. He also knew the law. So he tells paramedics he called for help and no one came. jmo, of course.

That may have been how it actually happened, Emma. However it happened, this is tragic. This did not need to happen, and it could have been averted at several points. If Zimmerman had simply followed Martin from a distance and observed, nothing more would have happenedIf Martin had not run, and Zimmerman had not chased him, nothing would have happened-Martin would have simply walked to his father's house, and that would have been it. From the facts we have, here's what I think actually happened-it makes a few assumptions, but not many:

This went bad, when Martin ran. This was a normal reaction. It was dark, Martin knew someone was following him; that made Martin nervous, and likely angry; he hadn't DONE anything, after all. Martin decided to run. Zimmerman decided to chase him, and caught up to him, probably close to the final scene. The verbal confrontation ensued. Zimmerman grabbed or tried to grab Martin. Martin responded like a typical 17 year-old; he was scared, and really angry now. Martin twisted or spun away from Zimmerman, winding up slightly to the side of and behind Zimmerman. The final piece of the puzzle comes into play here; if the iced tea was in a can (I did not know that earlier) here's where it comes into play. A full soft-drink can makes a reasonably effective improvised weapon of sorts, and it was all Martin had. Martin swung his hand, holding the can of tea, at Zimmerman's head, and connected. That was a heavy enough blow knock Zimmerman , already off-balance, to the ground, and accounts for the cut on the back of Zimmerman's head. Now, the tables were turned, and Martin had the advantage over his larger antagonist, now stunned and on his back. Martins's adrenaline was up; he was both scared, and fighting mad-again a normal reaction for a 17 year-old in that situation. He smacked Zimmerman in the face again with the can, trying to end the fight. If only he could put the bigger man out of action for a few seconds, he could get away and sprint to his father's house. Zimmerman , now losing the fight, panicked and yelled for help as Martin hit him again. Now, Zimmerman was desperate too; he reached for his gun, and used his other advantage, size, to push the smaller and lighter Martin off, drew, and fired one shot. A 9mm bullet will kill, but does not have a lot of knock-down effect; Martin hands still in front of him, fell forward to the ground, fatally hit.

Zimmerman's story about being hit as he got out of the vehicle is most probably false. He most likely DID grab Martin, or at least, lunge at him in an attempt to do so, BUT, unless someone saw that, it cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and without that proof, and without further evidence, and with Martin dead and unable to tell the other side of the story, there's nothing else to contradict Zimmerman's account of events that is conclusive. There might be enough evidence to indict Zimmerman for 2nd degree murder, but not enough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman's claim of self-defense is false. in the end, though, Zimmerman may walk free, simply because his lawyer tells the jury the Trayvon Martin in fact DID have a weapon that night-a can of iced tea, and as crazy as it sounds, that just might be how this ends. That ONE, seemingly insignificant detail, after all Zimmerman did wrong, might turn the case in his favor...because the end of a twelve oz aluminum can full of liquid, swung with the strength of even a 140 lb. kid, is hard enough, and has enough weight behind it, to fracture a human skull and kill, as any forensic pathologist can demonstrate.

 

[Peach]

Not in Florida. They have stand your ground laws.

"A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

And Martin could inflict great bodily harm or death HOW?

I'm wondering if you are being obtuse on purpose.

He has arms and legs, you know.

Or, had.

Yes, had. I am for a complete investigation. I do not contend Zimmerman is guilty of any crime, just that the Seminole county Sheriff's Department was lax in their investigation. Didn't take the gun, nor BAC or drug tests from Zimmerman. Too late now.

 

[Si modo]

I honestly think it's too late in the game to ever truly determine WHO made it physical beyond the shadow of a doubt.

I agree. Zimmerman's going to walk, regardless of whether he's ultimately charged.

I know what I believe happened. I heard the tapes. I saw the map and the streets and where the initial call was placed and where the shooting occurred. I saw how far Zimmerman followed (chased?) Martin. Two-tenths of a mile isn't very far, but in a situation like this it's far enough for Zimmerman to have heeded the advice of the dispatcher and let the police check Martin out. IMO he went looking for a confrontation. I don't see a 17 year old, 140 lb kid with a can of ice tea as his only weapon initiating an attack on a man who not only outweighs him by a hundred pounds, but is toting a gun besides.

Zimmerman saw himself as the community protector. He saw someone he didn't recognize, and didn't believe belonged in his neighborhood. He took it upon himself to track this kid, and things spiraled out of control. Once it was over, and Zimmerman realized what he'd done, he had an "oh shit!" moment. He knew that people had to have heard the cries for help. He knew he was fucked if police decided he had no cause to shoot this young man. He also knew the law. So he tells paramedics he called for help and no one came. jmo, of course.

That may have been how it actually happened, Emma. However it happened, this is tragic. This did not need to happen, and it could have been averted at several points. If Zimmerman had simply followed Martin from a distance and observed, nothing more would have happenedIf Martin had not run, and Zimmerman had not chased him, nothing would have happened-Martin would have simply walked to his father's house, and that would have been it. From the facts we have, here's what I think actually happened-it makes a few assumptions, but not many:

This went bad, when Martin ran. This was a normal reaction. It was dark, Martin knew someone was following him; that made Martin nervous, and likely angry; he hadn't DONE anything, after all. Martin decided to run. Zimmerman decided to chase him, and caught up to him, probably close to the final scene. The verbal confrontation ensued. Zimmerman grabbed or tried to grab Martin. Martin responded like a typical 17 year-old; he was scared, and really angry now. Martin twisted or spun away from Zimmerman, winding up slightly to the side of and behind Zimmerman. The final piece of the puzzle comes into play here; if the iced tea was in a can (I did not know that earlier) here's where it comes into play. A full soft-drink can makes a reasonably effective improvised weapon of sorts, and it was all Martin had. Martin swung his hand, holding the can of tea, at Zimmerman's head, and connected. That was a heavy enough blow knock Zimmerman , already off-balance, to the ground, and accounts for the cut on the back of Zimmerman's head. Now, the tables were turned, and Martin had the advantage over his larger antagonist, now stunned and on his back. Martins's adrenaline was up; he was both scared, and fighting mad-again a normal reaction for a 17 year-old in that situation. He smacked Zimmerman in the face again with the can, trying to end the fight. If only he could put the bigger man out of action for a few seconds, he could get away and sprint to his father's house. Zimmerman , now losing the fight, panicked and yelled for help as Martin hit him again. Now, Zimmerman was desperate too; he reached for his gun, and used his other advantage, size, to push the smaller and lighter Martin off, drew, and fired one shot. A 9mm bullet will kill, but does not have a lot of knock-down effect; Martin hands still in front of him, fell forward to the ground, fatally hit.

Zimmerman's story about being hit as he got out of the vehicle is most probably false. He most likely DID grab Martin, or at least, lunge at him in an attempt to do so, BUT, unless someone saw that, it cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and without that proof, and without further evidence, and with Martin dead and unable to tell the other side of the story, there's nothing else to contradict Zimmerman's account of events that is conclusive. There might be enough evidence to indict Zimmerman for 2nd degree murder, but not enough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman's claim of self-defense is false. in the end, though, Zimmerman may walk free, simply because his lawyer tells the jury the Trayvon Martin in fact DID have a weapon that night-a can of iced tea, and as crazy as it sounds, that just might be how this ends. That ONE, seemingly insignificant detail, after all Zimmerman did wrong, might turn the case in his favor...because the end of a twelve oz aluminum can full of liquid, swung with the strength of even a 140 lb. kid, is hard enough, and has enough weight behind it, to fracture a human skull and kill, as any forensic pathologist can demonstrate.

The cop report says Martin was 6', 160 lbs. Just a point in accuracy.

http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf

 

[Si modo]

And Martin could inflict great bodily harm or death HOW?

I'm wondering if you are being obtuse on purpose.

He has arms and legs, you know.

Or, had.

Yes, had. I am for a complete investigation. I do not contend Zimmerman is guilty of any crime, just that the Seminole county Sheriff's Department was lax in their investigation. Didn't take the gun, nor BAC or drug tests from Zimmerman. Too late now.

Um, yes they DID take the gun from Zimmerman. It's right there in the cop report. They took the gun and it's in evidence.

And, they CANNOT do a BAC on ANYONE without consent or probable cause to do so.

 

[The Gadfly]

Thanks, Si; someone had put the other140 weight out here earlier, so I had been going with that.

 

[Si modo]

Thanks, Si; someone had put the other140 weight out here earlier, so I had been going with that.

No problem. Emma was a gem and first posted the cop report.

And, that's quite useful in showing the erroneous assumptions several have made already about this case.

Thank gawd we have courts and not mobs for justice.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

And Martin could inflict great bodily harm or death HOW?

I'm wondering if you are being obtuse on purpose.

He has arms and legs, you know.

Or, had.

Yes, had. I am for a complete investigation. I do not contend Zimmerman is guilty of any crime, just that the Seminole county Sheriff's Department was lax in their investigation. Didn't take the gun, nor BAC or drug tests from Zimmerman. Too late now.

Why should they have? All things on the surface seemed factual. '

real life is NOT an episode of CSI you do realize police, prosecutors and the courts complain about people like you? you watch an episode of a police crime drama on television and all of a sudden you want to sit in court as an expert.

I've asked this and can't seem to get a straight (white?) answer:

What is it about MarcATL and Inthemiddle that they want a lynch mob before all evidence is in? Are their minds affected by some kind of mental illness? This is a serious question. MarcATL and a few other people have become completely unhinged over a tragedy that is not theirs.

What is it about lonely shut-ins with internet service that makes them so angry and irrational?

 

[The Gadfly]

Thanks, Si; someone had put the other140 weight out here earlier, so I had been going with that.

No problem. Emma was a gem and first posted the cop report.

And, that's quite useful in showing the erroneous assumptions several have made already about this case.

Thank gawd we have courts and not mobs for justice.

Thanks. I really think there might be something to the iced tea can thing, as bizarre as that sounds. It is possible to kill a person with any number of everyday, innocuous objects, if one is so inclined, and either trained, or desperate and/or lucky. A ballpoint pen, a rolled-up newspaper or magazine...or a full beverage can. Try it; you can knock a hole in a piece of plywood with the end of one-just wrap your hand around the can, and swing it backhanded.

 

[Ariux]

Zimmerman grabbed or tried to grab Martin.

What makes you think Zimmerman tried to grab the black? What makes you think a short, fat slob is going to try to physically restrain a 6' 160# buck, especially given that Zimmerman had a gun? When the 911 operator told Zimmerman not to follow the black, Zimmerman agreed.

The black could have jogged away any time he wanted.

Your argument sounds like pure prejudice.

 

[The Gadfly]

I'm wondering if you are being obtuse on purpose.

He has arms and legs, you know.

Or, had.

Yes, had. I am for a complete investigation. I do not contend Zimmerman is guilty of any crime, just that the Seminole county Sheriff's Department was lax in their investigation. Didn't take the gun, nor BAC or drug tests from Zimmerman. Too late now.

Why should they have? All things on the surface seemed factual. '

real life is NOT an episode of CSI you do realize police, prosecutors and the courts complain about people like you? you watch an episode of a police crime drama on television and all of a sudden you want to sit in court as an expert.

I've asked this and can't seem to get a straight (white?) answer:

What is it about MarcATL and Inthemiddle that they want a lynch mob before all evidence is in? Are their minds affected by some kind of mental illness? This is a serious question. MarcATL and a few other people have become completely unhinged over a tragedy that is not theirs.

What is it about lonely shut-ins with internet service that makes them so angry and irrational?

Short answer? Emotions, and what they see as a cover-up of a racially-motivated killing.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Zimmerman grabbed or tried to grab Martin.

What makes you think Zimmerman tried to grab the black? What makes you think a short, fat slob is going to try to physically restrain a 6' 160# buck, especially given that Zimmerman had a gun? When the 911 operator told Zimmerman not to follow the black, Zimmerman agreed.

The black could have jogged away any time he wanted.

Your argument sounds like pure prejudice.

So does your's

 

[High_Gravity]

Zimmerman grabbed or tried to grab Martin.

What makes you think Zimmerman tried to grab the black? What makes you think a short, fat slob is going to try to physically restrain a 6' 160# buck, especially given that Zimmerman had a gun? When the 911 operator told Zimmerman not to follow the black, Zimmerman agreed.

The black could have jogged away any time he wanted.

Your argument sounds like pure prejudice.

You are the once who is prejudiced here you racist piece of shit, and you are not fooling anyone, now go suck your boyfriend Zimmermans dick and shut the fuck up.

 

[The Gadfly]

Zimmerman grabbed or tried to grab Martin.

What makes you think Zimmerman tried to grab the black? What makes you think a short, fat slob is going to try to physically restrain a 6' 160# buck, especially given that Zimmerman had a gun? When the 911 operator told Zimmerman not to follow the black, Zimmerman agreed.

The black could have jogged away any time he wanted.

Your argument sounds like pure prejudice.

Ah, just when we were having a civil discussion, the bigot slithers into the room....slither right back out, you snake!

 

[Si modo]

I'm wondering if you are being obtuse on purpose.

He has arms and legs, you know.

Or, had.

Yes, had. I am for a complete investigation. I do not contend Zimmerman is guilty of any crime, just that the Seminole county Sheriff's Department was lax in their investigation. Didn't take the gun, nor BAC or drug tests from Zimmerman. Too late now.

Why should they have? All things on the surface seemed factual. '

real life is NOT an episode of CSI you do realize police, prosecutors and the courts complain about people like you? you watch an episode of a police crime drama on television and all of a sudden you want to sit in court as an expert.

I've asked this and can't seem to get a straight (white?) answer:

What is it about MarcATL and Inthemiddle that they want a lynch mob before all evidence is in? Are their minds affected by some kind of mental illness? This is a serious question. MarcATL and a few other people have become completely unhinged over a tragedy that is not theirs.

What is it about lonely shut-ins with internet service that makes them so angry and irrational?

IMO, I believe some are more prone to suggestion than others (eg. some can be hypnotized and others cannot). The media has made several suggestions that are to cause emotional reaction rather than thoughtful reaction.

And, some can't distinguish emotions from thoughts.

JMHO.

 

[Crackerjack]

I don't know if that's true. A neighborhood watch guy might be well within his legal rights to follow a person for any reason. And if (I have no idea if the "if" is valid or not), but IF the situation then escalates, the fact that he had followed him should have no bearing on the matter.

I do know that in NY, before a person permitted to employ deadly physical force in reliance on the law of "justification," among other things, the person is obligated to retreat if he can do so in complete safety (except for cops or folks inside their own homes where there is no duty to retreat). I don't know if FL has a similar provision in their law.

Not in Florida. They have stand your ground laws.

"A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

And Martin could inflict great bodily harm or death HOW?

Really? You think it's impossible for him to have been able to inflict such substantial harm on another person?

 

[Ariux]

You are the once who is prejudiced here you racist piece of shit, and you are not fooling anyone, now go suck your boyfriend Zimmermans dick and shut the fuck up.

You'd have to come up with an argument before I could accuse you of using a prejudicial argument.

 

[High_Gravity]

You are the once who is prejudiced here you racist piece of shit, and you are not fooling anyone, now go suck your boyfriend Zimmermans dick and shut the fuck up.

You'd have to come up with an argument before I could accuse you of using a prejudicial argument.

 

[Conservative]

Zimmerman grabbed or tried to grab Martin.

What makes you think Zimmerman tried to grab the black? What makes you think a short, fat slob is going to try to physically restrain a 6' 160# buck, especially given that Zimmerman had a gun? When the 911 operator told Zimmerman not to follow the black, Zimmerman agreed.

The black could have jogged away any time he wanted.

Your argument sounds like pure prejudice.

lying piece of shit. EVERY report on this states he ignored the 911 operator instructions in that regard.