Wind energy within the United states updates

[Old Rocks]

Eos Energy Storage Looking to Disrupt Grid-Scale Batteries With Zinc-Air : Greentech Media

 

[flacaltenn]

Eos Energy Storage Looking to Disrupt Grid-Scale Batteries With Zinc-Air : Greentech Media

The only valuable factoid given in that article is hinted at and not even revealed. And that is that JAPAN will not even TAKE wind onto it's grid without interim battery SMOOTHING. That's why they are ahead of us in trying to integrate wind and why they are making the big mistakes (like fires) for us.. Evidently -- they have REAL POWER engineers making rational demands on their renewable whackjobs -- and we just smile and placate them..

NOTHING in that article talks about a technology that can be deployed in a distributed load situation.. These "dreams" about storage being an integral part of the grid assume that EVERY load will be protected by battery backup.. OR -- is Atagon and OldieRocks suggesting we turn it into anarchy and leave large consumers unprotected from vagarities of a flaky grid?

The goal of 6MW-hr zinc air battery IS NOT "grid scale".. It's barely enough to SMOOTH 5 or 6 large windmills. And that -- by doubling the cost of each generator and adding a 40 foot trailer with a battery tech that right now is good for a couple thousand cycles.. (not to mention the inefficiencies of inverting and re-inverting the DC required in and out of the battery -- plus charge/discharge inefficiencies) !!!!

Obviously to save this concept of making sketchy wind useful -- enviros will completely ignore the environmental wreckage of such a large waste/recycling stream to justify their Rube Goldberg plans..

 

[antagon]

Eos Energy Storage Looking to Disrupt Grid-Scale Batteries With Zinc-Air : Greentech Media

The only valuable factoid given in that article is hinted at and not even revealed. And that is that JAPAN will not even TAKE wind onto it's grid without interim battery SMOOTHING. That's why they are ahead of us in trying to integrate wind and why they are making the big mistakes (like fires) for us.. Evidently -- they have REAL POWER engineers making rational demands on their renewable whackjobs -- and we just smile and placate them..

NOTHING in that article talks about a technology that can be deployed in a distributed load situation.. These "dreams" about storage being an integral part of the grid assume that EVERY load will be protected by battery backup.. OR -- is Atagon and OldieRocks suggesting we turn it into anarchy and leave large consumers unprotected from vagarities of a flaky grid?

The goal of 6MW-hr zinc air battery IS NOT "grid scale".. It's barely enough to SMOOTH 5 or 6 large windmills. And that -- by doubling the cost of each generator and adding a 40 foot trailer with a battery tech that right now is good for a couple thousand cycles.. (not to mention the inefficiencies of inverting and re-inverting the DC required in and out of the battery -- plus charge/discharge inefficiencies) !!!!

Obviously to save this concept of making sketchy wind useful -- enviros will completely ignore the environmental wreckage of such a large waste/recycling stream to justify their Rube Goldberg plans..

Yeah. The anarchy.

What do you find negative about this article? ..or did you deliver all the negativity?

 

[flacaltenn]

Sorry to be the pessimist here. I'd prefer another role. LOVE to be optimistic as an engineer..

Unfortunately we've have 25 years or more of "playing" with these problems and have no solutions to taking an energy source onto a grid that puts out 40 minutes BURSTS of energy.

Maybe you'd like to take a whack in the seat of the Utilities Command Center that I put another poster in. Tell me how what switches you would pull and when... Page 2 -- Post #20...

I'm in a related field and don't really have much faith in blind faith...

 

[antagon]

25 years is infantile in terms of infrastructure tech... especially to affect implementation.

I don't see what's so dire about your challenge. Our existing infrastructure can handle concentrated loads and only yourself and your counterparts on the distant left entertain the idea of a wind-only grid.

Whether or not RE is involved, there are many dividends to batteries for the efficiency they could add to a grid.. they would add some more of your switches for pulling.

 

[flacaltenn]

25 years is infantile in terms of infrastructure tech... especially to affect implementation.

I don't see what's so dire about your challenge. Our existing infrastructure can handle concentrated loads and only yourself and your counterparts on the distant left entertain the idea of a wind-only grid.

Whether or not RE is involved, there are many dividends to batteries for the efficiency they could add to a grid.. they would add some more of your switches for pulling.

The grid currently has NO need for batteries to store massive amounts of power. And I don't think you understand the implications of making that addition just so that the demand/load curves can go haywire..

You don't want to play the role of grid operator or to put yourself in the position of the Nat Gas plant operator that's forced to idle his perfectly good plant by govt edict everytime the wind blows. There is NO CHOICE to stranding 130,000 spectators at a night game, race or attraction -- you can't do that. And the batteries to back up a NASCAR event (e.g.) would be larger than the 43 vans that brought the race teams. IF -- that facility was isolated from the grid and could even INVOKE a battery backed local grid. Then those batteries would sit mostly idle for 4 months til the next event.

The SCALE of buffering and storing the grid is out reach as soon as you allow more than perhaps a few percent "ripple" on the PRIMARY generation output.

It's out of reach now and probably out of reach by reasonable measure of physics and economy. Why do you think Germany is tearing up its mountainsides and putting in miles of water storage and piping to attempt to use their measly wind resource? Is THAT the enviromental dream? Or is it just spiteful desperation?? I OPPOSE that kind of sledge hammer approach as a person that actually CARES about the environment and I OPPOSE massive waste/recycling from a battery crazy attempt to fix reality.

At least SOLAR is a tad more predictable by season and time of day.. AND it can SOMEWHAT be relied on to reduce daytime peaks. But there is a need to have 100% LOAD GENERATION 24/7/365.25 so that wind and solar WILL ALWAYS be a redundant source, NOT "an alternative".

I've posted this many times, but perhaps you've never seen the production output from a wind farm.. Trust me -- this is considered GOOD...

That was done before they took the governors off and let the turbines approach their best. BUT -- it's typical of the variability in wind farm production. You want to battery smooth THAT? At 10Megwatt-hrs per farm? Not gonna happen. The switches will STILL have to be pulled and power and equipment will be wasted..

 

[there4eyeM]

Other thinking, folksicules! Present energy solutions are not something that can continue. It was not always that way. People have existed for hundreds of thousands of years. Current energy consumption rates are very, very recent and cannot serve as a standard!

 

[bripat9643]

This thread will be for all updates on the expansion of wind power within the United states. I'm going to work to combine some of the threads this way to not clutter the forum.
-Updates on percentage of electric is done by wind power
-Updates on the construction of new wind power sites
-Reports on the super big wind farms...


US Reaches 50 GW of Wind Energy Capacity in Q2 of 2012

50 GW is the rated power. The actual power delivered probably averages less than 20% of that figure, or about 10 GW. On the other hand, a coal plant delivers on average 95% of the rated power.

Colossal fail.

 

[antagon]

25 years is infantile in terms of infrastructure tech... especially to affect implementation.

I don't see what's so dire about your challenge. Our existing infrastructure can handle concentrated loads and only yourself and your counterparts on the distant left entertain the idea of a wind-only grid.

Whether or not RE is involved, there are many dividends to batteries for the efficiency they could add to a grid.. they would add some more of your switches for pulling.

The grid currently has NO need for batteries to store massive amounts of power. And I don't think you understand the implications of making that addition just so that the demand/load curves can go haywire..

Adding storage capacity to a grid is meant to smooth out your little curves so that plants always run at a sustainable duty where they're most efficient at creating energy.

You don't want to play the role of grid operator or to put yourself in the position of the Nat Gas plant operator ...

You're right. That's probably a better position for yourself. I am moonlighting in the forward-looking, policy-level public infrastructure seat trying to incorporate batteries into grids and fire some of your switch flippers.

 

[bripat9643]

Other thinking, folksicules! Present energy solutions are not something that can continue. It was not always that way. People have existed for hundreds of thousands of years. Current energy consumption rates are very, very recent and cannot serve as a standard!

Obviously you believe we should all go back to living a stone-age existence. Our current energy consumption levels are what make modern living possible. You want to go back to abject poverty, starvation and death? Go find a cave to live in.

 

[flacaltenn]

25 years is infantile in terms of infrastructure tech... especially to affect implementation.

I don't see what's so dire about your challenge. Our existing infrastructure can handle concentrated loads and only yourself and your counterparts on the distant left entertain the idea of a wind-only grid.

Whether or not RE is involved, there are many dividends to batteries for the efficiency they could add to a grid.. they would add some more of your switches for pulling.

The grid currently has NO need for batteries to store massive amounts of power. And I don't think you understand the implications of making that addition just so that the demand/load curves can go haywire..

Adding storage capacity to a grid is meant to smooth out your little curves so that plants always run at a sustainable duty where they're most efficient at creating energy.

You don't want to play the role of grid operator or to put yourself in the position of the Nat Gas plant operator ...

You're right. That's probably a better position for yourself. I am moonlighting in the forward-looking, policy-level public infrastructure seat trying to incorporate batteries into grids and fire some of your switch flippers.

Well good luck from public policy angle if you don't understand the SCALE of what you're proposing. I gave you that the grid could THEORETICALLY run a few percent above and below the demand IF -- you spent mountains of money and material on buffering and storage. But the cost analysis for that is extremely disheartening if you're goal is to add perhaps 15% wind power to the grid 5 days a week for an hour at a time..

With daily production charts like I showed you above (and worse) -- it's not EVEN an issue of smoothing. It's an issue of the public paying for contracted RELIABLE energy in parallel with the costly wind investment and then DUMPING one or the other into the ground when you have too much.. The public is gonna pay TWICE for that "alternative" and THAT costing is not factored in.. That's the public policy angle that will eventually sober up the fan-atics.

 

[there4eyeM]

Other thinking, folksicules! Present energy solutions are not something that can continue. It was not always that way. People have existed for hundreds of thousands of years. Current energy consumption rates are very, very recent and cannot serve as a standard!

Obviously you believe we should all go back to living a stone-age existence. Our current energy consumption levels are what make modern living possible. You want to go back to abject poverty, starvation and death? Go find a cave to live in.

The typical response; if it doesn't correspond exactly to what Americans are doing today, it is a return to the stone age. For thinkers like this, 'progress' is a bigger car. There is no possibility of progress in another direction. In fact, 'progress' has become a dirty word.

The fact is, our current energy consumption levels condemn us to war, death and an end to the 'modern world'.

 

[flacaltenn]

Other thinking, folksicules! Present energy solutions are not something that can continue. It was not always that way. People have existed for hundreds of thousands of years. Current energy consumption rates are very, very recent and cannot serve as a standard!

Obviously you believe we should all go back to living a stone-age existence. Our current energy consumption levels are what make modern living possible. You want to go back to abject poverty, starvation and death? Go find a cave to live in.

The typical response; if it doesn't correspond exactly to what Americans are doing today, it is a return to the stone age. For thinkers like this, 'progress' is a bigger car. There is no possibility of progress in another direction. In fact, 'progress' has become a dirty word.

The fact is, our current energy consumption levels condemn us to war, death and an end to the 'modern world'.

Hey -- Has it ever occurred to you that America IS energy independent RIGHT NOW for all of it's electrical energy?

True Fact dat.. And wind, solar, and the other more weiney progressive ideas you might have floating around -- don't add much to getting us INDEPENDENT of the transportation sector fuels that we need?

If you're gonna invoke PROGRESS and try to appear more NOBLE than me, then at least focus on smoke and mirrors that APPEAR to make progress in the right areas.. You got 20 minutes to save me from myself.. Go!!!!!

 

[flacaltenn]

Too late.. I've gone over the precipice. Donated more money to the CATO institute and scheduled lunch with the Koch Bros to plan your imminent destruction.. You COULD have saved me..

 

[antagon]

The grid currently has NO need for batteries to store massive amounts of power. And I don't think you understand the implications of making that addition just so that the demand/load curves can go haywire..

Adding storage capacity to a grid is meant to smooth out your little curves so that plants always run at a sustainable duty where they're most efficient at creating energy.

You don't want to play the role of grid operator or to put yourself in the position of the Nat Gas plant operator ...

You're right. That's probably a better position for yourself. I am moonlighting in the forward-looking, policy-level public infrastructure seat trying to incorporate batteries into grids and fire some of your switch flippers.

Well good luck from public policy angle if you don't understand the SCALE of what you're proposing. I gave you that the grid could THEORETICALLY run a few percent above and below the demand IF -- you spent mountains of money and material on buffering and storage. But the cost analysis for that is extremely disheartening if you're goal is to add perhaps 15% wind power to the grid 5 days a week for an hour at a time..

With daily production charts like I showed you above (and worse) -- it's not EVEN an issue of smoothing. It's an issue of the public paying for contracted RELIABLE energy in parallel with the costly wind investment and then DUMPING one or the other into the ground when you have too much.. The public is gonna pay TWICE for that "alternative" and THAT costing is not factored in.. That's the public policy angle that will eventually sober up the fan-atics.

Don't worry about it. If it were solely up to people who just complain and supply the negatives about challenges, they'll never be surmounted. This country wouldn't be as far ahead as we even are today.

This century, our electrical infrastructure will have multifunctional grids with capacitive features. They'd allow for emerging energy sources and the challenges they present because these sources are expected to continue to play their marginal role well into the future. The mostly flat qualitative share in demand which I've seen proposed for wind or ethanol or solar means considerable quantitative growth and integration of alt/renewable energy in the market. Doubtful that can come about without more attention to the infrastructure which ties them in.

 

[flacaltenn]

Adding storage capacity to a grid is meant to smooth out your little curves so that plants always run at a sustainable duty where they're most efficient at creating energy.

You're right. That's probably a better position for yourself. I am moonlighting in the forward-looking, policy-level public infrastructure seat trying to incorporate batteries into grids and fire some of your switch flippers.

Well good luck from public policy angle if you don't understand the SCALE of what you're proposing. I gave you that the grid could THEORETICALLY run a few percent above and below the demand IF -- you spent mountains of money and material on buffering and storage. But the cost analysis for that is extremely disheartening if you're goal is to add perhaps 15% wind power to the grid 5 days a week for an hour at a time..

With daily production charts like I showed you above (and worse) -- it's not EVEN an issue of smoothing. It's an issue of the public paying for contracted RELIABLE energy in parallel with the costly wind investment and then DUMPING one or the other into the ground when you have too much.. The public is gonna pay TWICE for that "alternative" and THAT costing is not factored in.. That's the public policy angle that will eventually sober up the fan-atics.

Don't worry about it. If it were solely up to people who just complain and supply the negatives about challenges, they'll never be surmounted. This country wouldn't be as far ahead as we even are today.

This century, our electrical infrastructure will have multifunctional grids with capacitive features. They'd allow for emerging energy sources and the challenges they present because these sources are expected to continue to play their marginal role well into the future. The mostly flat qualitative share in demand which I've seen proposed for wind or ethanol or solar means considerable quantitative growth and integration of alt/renewable energy in the market. Doubtful that can come about without more attention to the infrastructure which ties them in.

Funny thing about infrastructure -- it gets created magically for GREAT ideas like television, cell phones and internet. When you FORCE infrastructure changes to conform to policy -- you're gonna waste a lot of time and effort and money and get little help from the private sector.

Wind is better used OFF GRID -- to make fuels like hydrogen, chemicals, and desalinized water. All products that are NOT time critical and serve to STORE the product made from that energy.. And VOILA -- no wasted demands or capacity on infrastructure..

 

[antagon]

no magic.

 

[flacaltenn]

no magic.

OK boss -- your rules.. No magic..

 

[Wolfmann]

this thread will be for all updates on the expansion of wind power within the united states. I'm going to work to combine some of the threads this way to not clutter the forum.
-updates on percentage of electric is done by wind power
-updates on the construction of new wind power sites
-reports on the super big wind farms...


us reaches 50 gw of wind energy capacity in q2 of 2012

us reaches 50gw of wind energy capacity in q2 of 2012 - cleantechnica
wind energy in the united states hit a new benchmark, reaching 50 gigawatts (gw) of electric capacity in the second quarter of 2012.

The announcement was made by denise bode, ceo of the american wind energy association (awea) at the national clean energy summit in los vegas, nevada.



So far this year, according to the awea, 2,800 megawatts (mw) of wind, along with 1,400 wind turbines have been installed across the us, helping the wind industry reach this fantastic achievement. Many of the new installations have come from new projects in nevada, idaho, iowa, hawaii oklahoma, and california. Some of the key projects that are going in across six of these states, according to the awea include:

■pattern energy’s spring valley wind farm, 30 miles east of ely, nevada (151.8 mw)
■enel green power north america’s rocky ridge wind farm in oklahoma (148.8 mw)
■enxco’s pacific wind project in kern county, california (140 mw)
■utah associated municipal power’s horse butte project in idaho (57.6 mw)
■first wind’s kaheawa wind ii wind farm in hawaii (21 mw)

what has occurred in the wind industry with the us reaching that plateau is quite remarkable. Consider the following:
■between 1981 and 2003, 5 gw of wind power was generated. That number doubled to 10 gw by 2006, then 25 gw by 2008, and now 50 gw in 2012.
■nuclear energy was the last new energy technology to reach 50 gw, done in the late 1970’s and 1980’s.

The next question you are going to wonder is how much 50 gw of wind energy gets you. This beautiful infographic below, supplied by the awea, shows just how much impact 50 gw of wind power can do:

The most interesting fact i found out from this infographic was that wind potential is enough to take out coal power plants in the us. 50 gw of wind provides the same amount of energy as 44 coal fire power plants, or 11 nuclear power plants. The future potential to move at a lighting-fast pace and replace these sunset energy sources is very realistic, especially when you consider that 39 states now have utility-sized wind farms, according to the awea.

Politicians were pleased with the us wind energy’s latest milestone. “this milestone for wind-energy production marks continued success for this clean, renewable and domestically produced energy source,” said republican senator chuck grassley in a statement. “wind energy has exceeded expectations since i first authored the tax incentive, in 1992, and offers an ideal for expanded production and use of alternative energy sources in the future.”

“it is amazing that 50,000 megawatts of our nation’s power is generated from clean and affordable wind energy,” oklahoma republican frank lucas said.

“this is a very big milestone for the wind industry, and i am proud the rocky ridge wind project has contributed to this great success. As a leader of congress, representing oklahoma’s third congressional district, i have supported the wind energy in the past, and i will continue to support it in the future,” he said.

The impact of the wind industry isn’t just on the environment but also economically, on the domestic level. Most of the capacity growth has come from turbines made in the usa, around 60%, according to the statement.

Mike garland, ceo of pattern energy in the statement also agreed with the positive economic impact the wind industry has had.

“we’re very proud that spring valley wind is not only nevada’s first wind power facility but also helps america reach 50 gigawatts of clean wind generation.”

“spring valley wind brought over 250 jobs to nevada and will now power up to 45,000 local homes with zero emissions. This project will also generate significant tax revenue and community benefits for decades to come, demonstrating that wind energy is a meaningful long-term investment in the economic health of local communities.”

however, uncertainty about the production tax credit (ptc), credited for spurring the development of the domestic wind industry, has plagued wind developers and threatens jobs, according to denise bode:


“these truly are the best of times and could be the worst of times for american wind power,”

“this month we shattered the 50-gigawatt mark, and we’re on pace for one of our best years ever in terms of megawatts installed. But because of the uncertainty surrounding the extension of the production tax credit, incoming orders are grinding to a halt,”

“layoffs have begun up and down our american manufacturing supply chain, which the industry has so proudly has built up in support of the u.s. Economy and made-in-the usa manufacturing. And when incoming orders stop, so do factories. Congress must act now to give wind energy a stable business environment to keep producing all this homegrown power, and save 37,000 american jobs by the first quarter of next year.”

however, hope is on the horizon, as the senate finance committee on august 7th passed the “family and business tax cut act.” the act would help extend the ptc, vital for further industrial growth.

Overall, 50gw of wind electricity capacity is something to be celebrated by everyone.

pic of how many homes it can power at different mw level
http://c1cleantechnicacom.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/files/2012/08/infographic_awea.jpg

cool

 

[tjvh]

Adding storage capacity to a grid is meant to smooth out your little curves so that plants always run at a sustainable duty where they're most efficient at creating energy.

You're right. That's probably a better position for yourself. I am moonlighting in the forward-looking, policy-level public infrastructure seat trying to incorporate batteries into grids and fire some of your switch flippers.

Well good luck from public policy angle if you don't understand the SCALE of what you're proposing. I gave you that the grid could THEORETICALLY run a few percent above and below the demand IF -- you spent mountains of money and material on buffering and storage. But the cost analysis for that is extremely disheartening if you're goal is to add perhaps 15% wind power to the grid 5 days a week for an hour at a time..

With daily production charts like I showed you above (and worse) -- it's not EVEN an issue of smoothing. It's an issue of the public paying for contracted RELIABLE energy in parallel with the costly wind investment and then DUMPING one or the other into the ground when you have too much.. The public is gonna pay TWICE for that "alternative" and THAT costing is not factored in.. That's the public policy angle that will eventually sober up the fan-atics.

Don't worry about it. If it were solely up to people who just complain and supply the negatives about challenges, they'll never be surmounted. This country wouldn't be as far ahead as we even are today.

This century, our electrical infrastructure will have multifunctional grids with capacitive features. They'd allow for emerging energy sources and the challenges they present because these sources are expected to continue to play their marginal role well into the future. The mostly flat qualitative share in demand which I've seen proposed for wind or ethanol or solar means considerable quantitative growth and integration of alt/renewable energy in the market. Doubtful that can come about without more attention to the infrastructure which ties them in.

Great... Not only do we have Ethanol requirements in our fuels at the pump (which is conveniently starving people in poor countries, and making our grocery bills horrendous) you propose using our food sources to also generate electricity? Some of you have lost your minds.