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I was thinking about this from the perspective of a parent. My daughter is 20 and I remember discussing this issue with her before she started dating, and again when she left for college. Reflecting on that conversation, I did put the burden of responsibility on her. My son is 11, and soon enough we'll be having a similar conversation. I will put the burden of responsibility on him, and instill that he should never make assumptions no matter the circumstances. No excuses and no justifications.
I'm gonna give her the benefit of the doubt and say I think she's getting confused about the whole word "responsibility", thinking you're assigning blame. And you're NOT assigning blame here. Neither am I, neither is Emma, neither are any of the others who brought up the same concept.
The responsibility a woman has is to act wisely and keep the risk in mind, the same way you act wisely about locking your door at night knowing there are a few assholes out there who might walk in and steal your stuff. That doesn't mean if you forget to lock your door it's your "fault" if your house gets broken into. It also doesn't mean somebody who really wants to get in can't force the lock or break a window instead. It's just using a little common sense.
I don't care if she is MARRIED to the male, even if she is at first willing and then he does or says something stupid, or she gets a real headache, or he starts sweating and smells like the asparagus she cooked, or just because she changed her mind she has the absolute right to tell him to get the fuck off, leave off, or whatever. People's bodies belong to themselves, themselves alone, period. The have an absolute right not to do, and no person has any right to force the issue, to entreat, to whine, or in any way object when a person says or indicates no, period.
All that should ever be necessary is "no."
As someone up here said, males who cannot control themselves are NOT REAL MEN.
I find the sort of female that does not get that a person's body is their own totally pathetic, and it is that sort of women that have always held other women back, forced them down, and made it possible for others to abuse at will.
As for locking doors in houses, we all do because we know that there are those out there who will enter and who will say. "BUT THE DOOR WAS OPEN..." A door may be unlocked, but SO FUCKING WHAT. There are lines that decent people never cross, and rape is one of them.
I find it even more pathetic that some women justify being raped as their own fault, that they are less than valuable, that being an object - not really a person but a thing is OK, because someone has "needs," and in this case, where it is mostly about women, just because women were once property, to be used, sold, traded is no excuse for other women to perpetuate that. Women like that are nothing but our own worst enemies.
...And you're a fucking dumbass who is - I'm sorry if you don't like it, but that doesn't make it untrue - issuing an engraved invitation for something horrible to happen to you. (And no, I don't mean that "you" in a specific sense.)
I'm gonna give her the benefit of the doubt and say I think she's getting confused about the whole word "responsibility", thinking you're assigning blame. And you're NOT assigning blame here. Neither am I, neither is Emma, neither are any of the others who brought up the same concept.
The responsibility a woman has is to act wisely and keep the risk in mind, the same way you act wisely about locking your door at night knowing there are a few assholes out there who might walk in and steal your stuff. That doesn't mean if you forget to lock your door it's your "fault" if your house gets broken into. It also doesn't mean somebody who really wants to get in can't force the lock or break a window instead. It's just using a little common sense.
I don't care if she is MARRIED to the male, even if she is at first willing and then he does or says something stupid, or she gets a real headache, or he starts sweating and smells like the asparagus she cooked, or just because she changed her mind she has the absolute right to tell him to get the fuck off, leave off, or whatever. People's bodies belong to themselves, themselves alone, period. The have an absolute right not to do, and no person has any right to force the issue, to entreat, to whine, or in any way object when a person says or indicates no, period.
All that should ever be necessary is "no."
As someone up here said, males who cannot control themselves are NOT REAL MEN.
I find the sort of female that does not get that a person's body is their own totally pathetic, and it is that sort of women that have always held other women back, forced them down, and made it possible for others to abuse at will.
As for locking doors in houses, we all do because we know that there are those out there who will enter and who will say. "BUT THE DOOR WAS OPEN..." A door may be unlocked, but SO FUCKING WHAT. There are lines that decent people never cross, and rape is one of them.
I find it even more pathetic that some women justify being raped as their own fault, that they are less than valuable, that being an object - not really a person but a thing is OK, because someone has "needs," and in this case, where it is mostly about women, just because women were once property, to be used, sold, traded is no excuse for other women to perpetuate that. Women like that are nothing but our own worst enemies.
Problem is, nobody (other than Cecile to some extent) is saying any of those things or blaming the victim at all. We were discussing the difference between blaming the victim and believing there are certain common sense things a woman can and should do to lessen her odds of the worst happening.
Knowing NO means NO and saying NO means it's rape is very different from being realistic about the fact that the word NO alone isn't a shield or guarantee. That's like saying a protective order will stop a bullet.
In the part of your post I bolded you made the exact same point I did. But does that mean you deliberately leave your door unlocked? No, because you're realistic about the fact that not everybody respects others' property. And while most men are decent, not all of them respect a woman's body. Reasonable caution is prudent and responsible. But failure to take reasonable precautions doesn't mean the victim is at fault.
I don't care if she is MARRIED to the male, even if she is at first willing and then he does or says something stupid, or she gets a real headache, or he starts sweating and smells like the asparagus she cooked, or just because she changed her mind she has the absolute right to tell him to get the fuck off, leave off, or whatever. People's bodies belong to themselves, themselves alone, period. The have an absolute right not to do, and no person has any right to force the issue, to entreat, to whine, or in any way object when a person says or indicates no, period.
All that should ever be necessary is "no."
As someone up here said, males who cannot control themselves are NOT REAL MEN.
I find the sort of female that does not get that a person's body is their own totally pathetic, and it is that sort of women that have always held other women back, forced them down, and made it possible for others to abuse at will.
As for locking doors in houses, we all do because we know that there are those out there who will enter and who will say. "BUT THE DOOR WAS OPEN..." A door may be unlocked, but SO FUCKING WHAT. There are lines that decent people never cross, and rape is one of them.
I find it even more pathetic that some women justify being raped as their own fault, that they are less than valuable, that being an object - not really a person but a thing is OK, because someone has "needs," and in this case, where it is mostly about women, just because women were once property, to be used, sold, traded is no excuse for other women to perpetuate that. Women like that are nothing but our own worst enemies.
Problem is, nobody (other than Cecile to some extent) is saying any of those things or blaming the victim at all. We were discussing the difference between blaming the victim and believing there are certain common sense things a woman can and should do to lessen her odds of the worst happening.
Knowing NO means NO and saying NO means it's rape is very different from being realistic about the fact that the word NO alone isn't a shield or guarantee. That's like saying a protective order will stop a bullet.
In the part of your post I bolded you made the exact same point I did. But does that mean you deliberately leave your door unlocked? No, because you're realistic about the fact that not everybody respects others' property. And while most men are decent, not all of them respect a woman's body. Reasonable caution is prudent and responsible. But failure to take reasonable precautions doesn't mean the victim is at fault.
Women and men held to different standards --- doesn't say a whole lot for the men parents raise, especially mothers. You would think mothers at least would know better, and tell their sons...
Being in the company of a male does not give him the right to sex.... PERIOD.
You used the wrong word Dogbert. It's not "blame" it's "responsibility".
Sorry, I know this is probably a big old piece of flamebait, but it's just the way I see things.
It's not my poll. I'm only putting what the poll said in the OP.
The poll and article said "responsibility", but you put the word "blame" in the subject line. Thats why I say you used the wrong word.
I'm gonna give her the benefit of the doubt and say I think she's getting confused about the whole word "responsibility", thinking you're assigning blame. And you're NOT assigning blame here. Neither am I, neither is Emma, neither are any of the others who brought up the same concept.
The responsibility a woman has is to act wisely and keep the risk in mind, the same way you act wisely about locking your door at night knowing there are a few assholes out there who might walk in and steal your stuff. That doesn't mean if you forget to lock your door it's your "fault" if your house gets broken into. It also doesn't mean somebody who really wants to get in can't force the lock or break a window instead. It's just using a little common sense.
I don't care if she is MARRIED to the male, even if she is at first willing and then he does or says something stupid, or she gets a real headache, or he starts sweating and smells like the asparagus she cooked, or just because she changed her mind she has the absolute right to tell him to get the fuck off, leave off, or whatever. People's bodies belong to themselves, themselves alone, period. The have an absolute right not to do, and no person has any right to force the issue, to entreat, to whine, or in any way object when a person says or indicates no, period.
All that should ever be necessary is "no."
As someone up here said, males who cannot control themselves are NOT REAL MEN.
I find the sort of female that does not get that a person's body is their own totally pathetic, and it is that sort of women that have always held other women back, forced them down, and made it possible for others to abuse at will.
As for locking doors in houses, we all do because we know that there are those out there who will enter and who will say. "BUT THE DOOR WAS OPEN..." A door may be unlocked, but SO FUCKING WHAT. There are lines that decent people never cross, and rape is one of them.
I find it even more pathetic that some women justify being raped as their own fault, that they are less than valuable, that being an object - not really a person but a thing is OK, because someone has "needs," and in this case, where it is mostly about women, just because women were once property, to be used, sold, traded is no excuse for other women to perpetuate that. Women like that are nothing but our own worst enemies.
I'm gonna give her the benefit of the doubt and say I think she's getting confused about the whole word "responsibility", thinking you're assigning blame. And you're NOT assigning blame here. Neither am I, neither is Emma, neither are any of the others who brought up the same concept.
The responsibility a woman has is to act wisely and keep the risk in mind, the same way you act wisely about locking your door at night knowing there are a few assholes out there who might walk in and steal your stuff. That doesn't mean if you forget to lock your door it's your "fault" if your house gets broken into. It also doesn't mean somebody who really wants to get in can't force the lock or break a window instead. It's just using a little common sense.
I don't care if she is MARRIED to the male, even if she is at first willing and then he does or says something stupid, or she gets a real headache, or he starts sweating and smells like the asparagus she cooked, or just because she changed her mind she has the absolute right to tell him to get the fuck off, leave off, or whatever. People's bodies belong to themselves, themselves alone, period. The have an absolute right not to do, and no person has any right to force the issue, to entreat, to whine, or in any way object when a person says or indicates no, period.
All that should ever be necessary is "no."
As someone up here said, males who cannot control themselves are NOT REAL MEN.
I find the sort of female that does not get that a person's body is their own totally pathetic, and it is that sort of women that have always held other women back, forced them down, and made it possible for others to abuse at will.
As for locking doors in houses, we all do because we know that there are those out there who will enter and who will say. "BUT THE DOOR WAS OPEN..." A door may be unlocked, but SO FUCKING WHAT. There are lines that decent people never cross, and rape is one of them.
I find it even more pathetic that some women justify being raped as their own fault, that they are less than valuable, that being an object - not really a person but a thing is OK, because someone has "needs," and in this case, where it is mostly about women, just because women were once property, to be used, sold, traded is no excuse for other women to perpetuate that. Women like that are nothing but our own worst enemies.
Problem is, nobody (other than Cecile to some extent) is saying any of those things or blaming the victim at all. We were discussing the difference between blaming the victim and believing there are certain common sense things a woman can and should do to lessen her odds of the worst happening.
Knowing NO means NO and saying NO means it's rape is very different from being realistic about the fact that the word NO alone isn't a shield or guarantee. That's like saying a protective order will stop a bullet.
In the part of your post I bolded you made the exact same point I did. But does that mean you deliberately leave your door unlocked? No, because you're realistic about the fact that not everybody respects others' property. And while most men are decent, not all of them respect a woman's body. Reasonable caution is prudent and responsible. But failure to take reasonable precautions doesn't mean the victim is at fault.
...And you're a fucking dumbass who is - I'm sorry if you don't like it, but that doesn't make it untrue - issuing an engraved invitation for something horrible to happen to you. (And no, I don't mean that "you" in a specific sense.)
This is a great "affirmative defense" for murderers, burglars, robbers, and whatever else...
Take the wrong bus, get killed, well ya should have known better than to get on that bus...
Live in a non-gated and non-security guarded neighborhood because that is what you can afford, well it is your own damned fault if someone breaks in and steals everything once or twice a month...
Get in a car and someone hits it and you are maimed, well so what, stats tell us riding in cars can be dangerous, so ya should have known better....
There are some things that no matter what, decent people do not do, and rape is one of them... When someome says no, or stop, OR no more, it is over! Done...
Another comparison: your son is out there, of age, has a few drinks and says something stupid and gets punched for this, then says "Stop, I don't want to fight, I'm sorry, I just want to leave," does the person hitting him, because he has a NEED, he thinks, for "payback" -- another very human urge, then have the right to go on and beat your kid to a bloody pulp? What does the decent person do? HE STOPS, walks away, may feel frustrated, angry, UNSATISFIED, but because he is DECENT, he walks away, even though your son started it, put himself in a position to draw certain attention, because assaults are against the law, wrong, and decent people don't do that!
But what, a woman errs so she deserves to be assaulted? She OWES it to the other person to satisfy their NEED? Their "urge?"
So by your reckoning if a drunk driver runs over and kills another drunk, no crime occured.Woman says no and man does anyway.
Woman says I changed my mind for whatever reason and man does anyway.
Woman says pullout and man does not.
Female under a certain age.
Woman is drunk or otherwise incapacitated.
Woman says yes because of threat of violence.
All cases of rape. It's the same if the victim is a man.
Sorry, but not quite. If they are both trashed and make a bad decision - as drunken people are wont to do - to have sex, then to my mind, no rape occurred, even if she looks back the next morning and says, "Oh, shit, I didn't want to do that." (This is presuming, of course, that she wasn't screaming, "No! Stop! Rape!" in the middle of their drunking fucking.)
Now you have to call yourself one since you made the suggestion. May I say, it's quite fitting.Good points.Which does raise a question of credibility for anyone prosecuting a case, but what does it do to make a claim more or less likely to be truthful? We all know there are far more rapes than ever make it to prosecution - either because they are not reported, or because they are difficult to prove, or because the victim's credibility rightly or wrongly is considered suspect. Does that change whether a rape occurred?
I wonder how many people would be questioning rape if this was a discussion about child molestation.
I KNOW you're not suggesting that women are equivalent to helpless children, unable to give consent under any circumstances, because if you were, I'd have to call you a misogynistic pig.
So by your reckoning if a drunk driver runs over and kills another drunk, no crime occured.Woman says no and man does anyway.
Woman says I changed my mind for whatever reason and man does anyway.
Woman says pullout and man does not.
Female under a certain age.
Woman is drunk or otherwise incapacitated.
Woman says yes because of threat of violence.
All cases of rape. It's the same if the victim is a man.
Sorry, but not quite. If they are both trashed and make a bad decision - as drunken people are wont to do - to have sex, then to my mind, no rape occurred, even if she looks back the next morning and says, "Oh, shit, I didn't want to do that." (This is presuming, of course, that she wasn't screaming, "No! Stop! Rape!" in the middle of their drunking fucking.)
So by your reckoning if a drunk driver runs over and kills another drunk, no crime occured.Woman says no and man does anyway.
Woman says I changed my mind for whatever reason and man does anyway.
Woman says pullout and man does not.
Female under a certain age.
Woman is drunk or otherwise incapacitated.
Woman says yes because of threat of violence.
All cases of rape. It's the same if the victim is a man.
Sorry, but not quite. If they are both trashed and make a bad decision - as drunken people are wont to do - to have sex, then to my mind, no rape occurred, even if she looks back the next morning and says, "Oh, shit, I didn't want to do that." (This is presuming, of course, that she wasn't screaming, "No! Stop! Rape!" in the middle of their drunking fucking.)
I kind of agree with you. But. As a woman, walking on the beach alone is putting myself in a dangerous position. So is hiking in the woods alone. Or walking down the street.So by your reckoning if a drunk driver runs over and kills another drunk, no crime occured.Sorry, but not quite. If they are both trashed and make a bad decision - as drunken people are wont to do - to have sex, then to my mind, no rape occurred, even if she looks back the next morning and says, "Oh, shit, I didn't want to do that." (This is presuming, of course, that she wasn't screaming, "No! Stop! Rape!" in the middle of their drunking fucking.)
Both need to take personal responsibility for being drunk and driving. See how that works? Maybe if the drunk that got killed had not been drunk, he may have been able to take evasive action.
Everyone needs to take responsibility to NOT put themselves in dangerous situations.
I kind of agree with you. But. As a woman, walking on the beach alone is putting myself in a dangerous position. So is hiking in the woods alone. Or walking down the street.So by your reckoning if a drunk driver runs over and kills another drunk, no crime occured.
Both need to take personal responsibility for being drunk and driving. See how that works? Maybe if the drunk that got killed had not been drunk, he may have been able to take evasive action.
Everyone needs to take responsibility to NOT put themselves in dangerous situations.
The problem is with the criminal, not the victim.
Maybe we should wear burkas.
I kind of agree with you. But. As a woman, walking on the beach alone is putting myself in a dangerous position. So is hiking in the woods alone. Or walking down the street.Both need to take personal responsibility for being drunk and driving. See how that works? Maybe if the drunk that got killed had not been drunk, he may have been able to take evasive action.
Everyone needs to take responsibility to NOT put themselves in dangerous situations.
The problem is with the criminal, not the victim.
I kind of get what you're say too but.... you're taking it to an extreme. I am trying to balance the need to take sensible precautions - ie getting naked with a guy that you do not intend to have sex with is actually not even remotely the same thing as going for a solitary hike, really, is it?
Women need to be sensible when it comes to not deliberately putting themselves into a situation whereby a man can misread the signals.
