6th Circuit Federal Appeals Court Gives Thumb's Up to States' Choice on Gay Marriage

Should the definition of marriage be up to the states?

  • Yes

    Votes: 11 57.9%
  • No

    Votes: 8 42.1%

  • Total voters
    19
Simple, the people do not get to vote on the civil rights of others for it they did soon no one would have any.

If that is the true conclusion of law (yet to be determined), like Sutton said, you need to delineate in writing how people's lonstanding right to set definitions for marriage in their state can "rightfully be taken away from them". That has to be carefully written out. When a civil right is taken away it cannot be done flippantly or vaguely from underneath.

Interim law says gay marriage is not legal in any state that did not vote it in.

**********

And now, claimants insist, must account for United States v. Windsor , 133 S. Ct. 2675 (2013), which invalidated the Defense of Marriage Act of 1996, a law that refused for purposes of federal statutory benefits to respect gay marriages authorized by state law. Yet Windsor does not answer today’s question. The decision never mentions Baker , much less overrules it. And the outcomes of the cases do not clash. Windsor invalidated a federal law that refused to respect state laws permitting gay marriage, while Baker upheld the right of the people of a State to define marriage as they see it. To respect one decision does not slight the other. Nor does Windsor's reasoning clash with Baker. Windsor hinges on the Defense of Marriage Act’s unprecedented intrusion into the States’ authority over domestic relations. Id.at 2691–92. Before the Act’s passage in 1996, the federal government had traditionally relied on state definitions of marriage instead of purporting to define marriage itself.Id.at 2691.

That premise does not work—it runs the other way—in a case involving a challenge in federal court to state laws defining marriage. The point of Windsor was to prevent the Federal Government from “divest[ing]” gay couples of “a dignity and status of immense import” that New York’s extension of the definition of marriage gave them, an extension that “without doubt” any State could provide... Windsor made explicit that it does not answer today’s question, telling us that the “opinion and its holding are confined to . . . lawful marriages” already protected by some of the States. Id. at 2696. Bringing the matter to a close, the Court held minutes after releasing Windsor that procedural obstacles in Hollingsworth v. Perry, 133 S. Ct. 2652 (2013), prevented it from considering the validity of state marriage laws. Saying that the Court declined in Hollingsworth to overrule Baker openly but decided in Windsor to overrule it by stealth makes an unflattering and unfair estimate of the Justices’ candor.

Even if Windsor did not overrule Baker by name,the claimants point out, lower courts still may rely on “doctrinal developments” in the aftermath of a summary disposition as a ground for not following the decision. Hicks,422 U.S. at 344. And Windsor , they say, together with Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558 (2003), and Romer v. Evans, 517 U.S. 620 (1996), permit us to cast Baker aside. But this reading of “doctrinal developments” would be a groundbreaking development of its own. From the perspective of a lower court, summary dispositions remain “controlling precedent, unless and until re-examined by [the Supreme] Court. Tully v. Griffin, Inc., 429 U.S. 68, 74 (1976); see Hicks, 422 U.S. at 343–45. And the Court has told us to treat the two types of decisions, whether summary dispositions or full-merits decisions, the same, “prevent[ing] lower courts” in both settings “from coming to opposite conclusions on the precise issues presented and necessarily decided by those actions.” Mandel v. Bradley, 432 U.S. 173, 176 (1977).

Lest doubt remain, the Court has also told us not to ignore its decisions even when they are in tension with a new line of cases. “If a precedent of this Court has direct application in a case, yet appears to rest on reasons rejected in some other line of decisions, the Court of Appeals should follow the case which directly controls, leaving to this Court the prerogative of overruling its own decisions.” Rodriguez de Quijas v. Shearson/Am. Express, Inc., 490 U.S. 477, 484 (1989); see Agostini v. Felton, 521 U.S. 203, 237 (1997).

Just two scenarios, then, permit us to ignore a Supreme Court decision, whatever its form: when the Court has overruled the decision by name (if, say, Windsor had directly overruled Baker ) or when the Court has overruled the decision by outcome (if, say, Hollingsworth had invalidated the California law without mentioning Baker ). Any other approach returns us to a world in which the lower courts may anticipatorily overrule all manner of Supreme Court decisions based on counting-to-five predictions, perceived trajectories in the caselaw, or, worst of all, new appointments to the Court. In the end, neither of the two preconditions for ignoring Supreme Court precedent applies here. Windsor as shown does not mention
Baker , and it clarifies that its “opinion and holding” do not govern the States’ authority to define marriage. Hollingsworth was dismissed. And neither Lawrence nor Romer mentions Baker ,and neither is inconsistent with its outcome. The one invalidates a State’s criminal antisodomy law and explains that the case “does not involve . . . formal recognition” of same-sex relationships. Lawrence, 539 U.S. at 578....

...don’t these denials of certiorari signal that, from the Court’s perspective, the right to same-sex marriage is inevitable? Maybe; maybe not. Even if we grant the premise and assume that same-sex marriage will be recognized one day in all fifty States, that does not tell us how— whether through the courts or through democracy. And, if through the courts, that does not tell us why—whether through one theory of constitutional invalidity or another. Four courts of appeals thus far have recognized a constitutional right to same-sex marriage. They agree on one thing: the result. But they reach that outcome in many ways, often more than one way in the same decision...The Court’s certiorari denials tell us nothing about the democracy-versus-litigation path to same-sex marriage, and they tell us nothing about the validity of any of these theories. If a federal court denies the people suffrage over an issue long thought to be within their power, they deserve an explanation. We, for our part, cannot find one, as several other judges have concluded as well....

...There are many ways, as these lower court decisions confirm, to look at this question: originalism; rational basis review; animus; fundamental rights; suspect classifications; evolving meaning. The parties in one way or another have invoked them all. Not one of the plaintiffs’ theories, however, makes the case for constitutionalizing the definition of marriage and for removing the issue from the place it has been since the founding: in the hands of state voters.
 
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Simple, the people do not get to vote on the civil rights of others for it they did soon no one would have any.

If that is the true conclusion of law (yet to be determined), like Sutton said, you need to delineate in writing how people's lonstanding right to set definitions for marriage in their state can "rightfully be taken away from them". That has to be carefully written out. When a civil right is taken away it cannot be done flippantly or vaguely from underneath.
Nothing is being taken away, the law is being applied more fairly. When others gain equality you don't lose anything beyond your ability write bigotry into the law. In this case the bigotry serves no rational or worthy interest so out the window it goes.
 
Said Syriusly on the wrong thread:

How is marriage a right?
Loving v Virginia
"Marriage is one of the 'basic civil rights of man,' fundamental to our very existence and survival."
Maynard v. Hill,125 U. S. 190(1888), the Court characterized marriage as "the most important relation in life,"id.at125 U. S. 205, and as "the foundation of the family and of society, without which there would be neither civilization nor progress,"
Marriage is "fundametal to our very existence and survival" and "the foundation of the family and of society". It seems to me that children are the paramount members of marriage...

Well lots of things 'seem' something to you that don't to anyone else.

Marriage is a right in the United States.

Loving v Virginia

"The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men."

"Marriage is one of the 'basic civil rights of man,' fundamental to our very existence and survival."

Zablocki v. Rehail

AlthoughLovingarose in the context of racial discrimination, prior and subsequent decisions of this Court confirm that the right to marry is of fundamental importance for all individuals.

Maynard v. Hill,125 U. S. 190(1888), the Court characterized marriage as "the most important relation in life,"id.at125 U. S. 205, and as "the foundation of the family and of society, without which there would be neither civilization nor progress,"

InMeyer v. Nebraska,262 U. S. 390(1923), the Court recognized that the right "to marry, establish a home and bring up children" is a central part of the liberty protected by the Due Process Clause,

InGriswold v. Connecticut,381 U. S. 479(1965), the Court observed:

"We deal with a right of privacy older than the Bill of Rights -- older than our political parties, older than our school system. Marriage is a coming together for better or for worse, hopefully enduring, and intimate to the degree of being sacred. It is an association that promotes a way of life, not causes; a harmony in living, not political faiths; a bilateral loyalty, not commercial or social projects. Yet it is an association for as noble a purpose as any involved in our prior decisions."

Carey v. Population Services International,431 U. S. 678(1977)

"While the outer limits of [the right of personal privacy] have not been marked by the Court, it is clear that among the decisions that an individual may make without unjustified government interference are personal decisions 'relating to marriage,

Cleveland Board of Education v. LaFleur

"This Court has long recognized that freedom of personal choice in matters of marriage and family life is one of the liberties protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment"
 
Marriage is not a constitutional right. You can quote 50 more people but you still can't refute that.
That's correct so what are you worried about? Marriage, in the US, is a contract, a license issued by the state, and like all licenses you have to have a compelling reason why you won't issue one to a person or a class of people.
 
Marriage is not a constitutional right. You can quote 50 more people but you still can't refute that.

How about interstate travel? Procreation? Where are your "constitutional rights" to those things? I'll help you out...Google "fundamental rights".
There's no right, "fundamental" or otherwise that's absolute and not subject to regulation. Can I sire children with my daughter? Can I drive into Nebraska with weed I bought in Colorado? The right to marry does not translate into the right to marry whoever you want. Throughout human history this has been true.
 
Marriage is not a constitutional right. You can quote 50 more people but you still can't refute that.

How about interstate travel? Procreation? Where are your "constitutional rights" to those things? I'll help you out...Google "fundamental rights".
There's no right, "fundamental" or otherwise that's absolute and not subject to regulation. Can I sire children with my daughter? Can I drive into Nebraska with weed I bought in Colorado? The right to marry does not translate into the right to marry whoever you want. Throughout human history this has been true.
For someone who doesn't seem to care about the past much, if at all, stop living in it. It's the New World now Chief.
 
Marriage is not a constitutional right. You can quote 50 more people but you still can't refute that.

I am not quoting people- I am quoting the Supreme Court

Marriage is a right in the United States.

Loving v Virginia

"The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men."

"Marriage is one of the 'basic civil rights of man,' fundamental to our very existence and survival."

Zablocki v. Rehail

AlthoughLovingarose in the context of racial discrimination, prior and subsequent decisions of this Court confirm that the right to marry is of fundamental importance for all individuals.

Maynard v. Hill,125 U. S. 190(1888), the Court characterized marriage as "the most important relation in life,"id.at125 U. S. 205, and as "the foundation of the family and of society, without which there would be neither civilization nor progress,"

InMeyer v. Nebraska,262 U. S. 390(1923), the Court recognized that the right "to marry, establish a home and bring up children" is a central part of the liberty protected by the Due Process Clause,

InGriswold v. Connecticut,381 U. S. 479(1965), the Court observed:

"We deal with a right of privacy older than the Bill of Rights -- older than our political parties, older than our school system. Marriage is a coming together for better or for worse, hopefully enduring, and intimate to the degree of being sacred. It is an association that promotes a way of life, not causes; a harmony in living, not political faiths; a bilateral loyalty, not commercial or social projects. Yet it is an association for as noble a purpose as any involved in our prior decisions."

Carey v. Population Services International,431 U. S. 678(1977)

"While the outer limits of [the right of personal privacy] have not been marked by the Court, it is clear that among the decisions that an individual may make without unjustified government interference are personal decisions 'relating to marriage,

Cleveland Board of Education v. LaFleur

"This Court has long recognized that freedom of personal choice in matters of marriage and family life is one of the liberties protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment"
 
Marriage is not a constitutional right. You can quote 50 more people but you still can't refute that.

I am not quoting people- I am quoting the Supreme Court

Marriage is a right in the United States.

Loving v Virginia

"The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men."

"Marriage is one of the 'basic civil rights of man,' fundamental to our very existence and survival."

Zablocki v. Rehail

AlthoughLovingarose in the context of racial discrimination, prior and subsequent decisions of this Court confirm that the right to marry is of fundamental importance for all individuals.

Maynard v. Hill,125 U. S. 190(1888), the Court characterized marriage as "the most important relation in life,"id.at125 U. S. 205, and as "the foundation of the family and of society, without which there would be neither civilization nor progress,"

InMeyer v. Nebraska,262 U. S. 390(1923), the Court recognized that the right "to marry, establish a home and bring up children" is a central part of the liberty protected by the Due Process Clause,

InGriswold v. Connecticut,381 U. S. 479(1965), the Court observed:

"We deal with a right of privacy older than the Bill of Rights -- older than our political parties, older than our school system. Marriage is a coming together for better or for worse, hopefully enduring, and intimate to the degree of being sacred. It is an association that promotes a way of life, not causes; a harmony in living, not political faiths; a bilateral loyalty, not commercial or social projects. Yet it is an association for as noble a purpose as any involved in our prior decisions."

Carey v. Population Services International,431 U. S. 678(1977)

"While the outer limits of [the right of personal privacy] have not been marked by the Court, it is clear that among the decisions that an individual may make without unjustified government interference are personal decisions 'relating to marriage,

Cleveland Board of Education v. LaFleur

"This Court has long recognized that freedom of personal choice in matters of marriage and family life is one of the liberties protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment"

Stop with the damn pasting. I said there is no constitutional right to get married. You can't float the asinine argument that the SC equals the constitution without conceding that slavery and denying women's suffrage is also "constitutional". Nowhere does the actual document give the federal government a say in marriage. You can quote all day long but you can't put it in the constitution.
 
Stop with the damn pasting. I said there is no constitutional right to get married. You can't float the asinine argument that the SC equals the constitution without conceding that slavery and denying women's suffrage is also "constitutional". Nowhere does the actual document give the federal government a say in marriage. You can quote all day long but you can't put it in the constitution.


Are you saying that rights must be enumerated in the Constitution for them to be held by people?


>>>>
 
Stop with the damn pasting. I said there is no constitutional right to get married. You can't float the asinine argument that the SC equals the constitution without conceding that slavery and denying women's suffrage is also "constitutional". Nowhere does the actual document give the federal government a say in marriage. You can quote all day long but you can't put it in the constitution.


Are you saying that rights must be enumerated in the Constitution for them to be held by people?


>>>>
Powers have to be enumerated in order for the federal government to have authority to regulate. If you've never read the Federalist Papers, please bow out of the conversation as you lack the education needed to contribute intelligently to the conversation.
 
Stop with the damn pasting. I said there is no constitutional right to get married. You can't float the asinine argument that the SC equals the constitution without conceding that slavery and denying women's suffrage is also "constitutional". Nowhere does the actual document give the federal government a say in marriage. You can quote all day long but you can't put it in the constitution.


Are you saying that rights must be enumerated in the Constitution for them to be held by people?


>>>>
Powers have to be enumerated in order for the federal government to have authority to regulate. If you've never read the Federalist Papers, please bow out of the conversation as you lack the education needed to contribute intelligently to the conversation.

1. You didn't asnwer the question, instead you deflect. You indicated that marriage was not a right because it isn't listed as so in the Constitution. Why not a direct answer on the comment you made. Must rights held by people be enumerated in the Constitution as you alluded?

2. Secondly, yes I've read the Federalist Papers, however the 14th Amendment was passed long after they were written.

3. The power of the United States government to ensure that States provide equal protections and due process under the laws and shall not infringe on the rights of citizens is enumerated in the 14th Amendment.


>>>>
 
Stop with the damn pasting. I said there is no constitutional right to get married. You can't float the asinine argument that the SC equals the constitution without conceding that slavery and denying women's suffrage is also "constitutional". Nowhere does the actual document give the federal government a say in marriage. You can quote all day long but you can't put it in the constitution.


Are you saying that rights must be enumerated in the Constitution for them to be held by people?


>>>>
That's clearly not the case.
However, any powers not explicitly given to the Federal gov't belongs to the states.
 
1. You didn't asnwer the question, instead you deflect. You indicated that marriage was not a right because it isn't listed as so in the Constitution. Why not a direct answer on the comment you made. Must rights held by people be enumerated in the Constitution as you alluded? 2. Secondly, yes I've read the Federalist Papers, however the 14th Amendment was passed long after they were written. 3. The power of the United States government to ensure that States provide equal protections and due process under the laws and shall not infringe on the rights of citizens is enumerated in the 14th Amendment.
Who ennumerates rights that aren't in the constitution? Well, SCOTUS might. They did in Baker and Windsor which have not been overridden or overturned. So they are the law. In them they found some rights. And those rights are to states and their electorates to set definitions for marriage. That's the law now and no lower courts' decisions are allowed to conflict with that law until or if SCOTUS overturns itself...FIRST.
 
Stop with the damn pasting. I said there is no constitutional right to get married. You can't float the asinine argument that the SC equals the constitution without conceding that slavery and denying women's suffrage is also "constitutional". Nowhere does the actual document give the federal government a say in marriage. You can quote all day long but you can't put it in the constitution.


Are you saying that rights must be enumerated in the Constitution for them to be held by people?


>>>>
Powers have to be enumerated in order for the federal government to have authority to regulate. If you've never read the Federalist Papers, please bow out of the conversation as you lack the education needed to contribute intelligently to the conversation.

1. You didn't asnwer the question, instead you deflect. You indicated that marriage was not a right because it isn't listed as so in the Constitution. Why not a direct answer on the comment you made. Must rights held by people be enumerated in the Constitution as you alluded?

2. Secondly, yes I've read the Federalist Papers, however the 14th Amendment was passed long after they were written.

3. The power of the United States government to ensure that States provide equal protections and due process under the laws and shall not infringe on the rights of citizens is enumerated in the 14th Amendment.


>>>>
Are you arguing the 14th Amendment undid the 10th? It isn't open ended and cites specific exclusionary criteria. It's absurd to suggest the 14th deprived the states the power to regulate marriage. Such an open ended interpretation renders the entire constitution meaningless just like the Leftist rendition of the Welfare Clause. It's a recipe for unbridled statism and I can promise you that's not what the advocates had in mind.

And it's clear you didn't understand the Federalist Papers.
 
Stop with the damn pasting. I said there is no constitutional right to get married. You can't float the asinine argument that the SC equals the constitution without conceding that slavery and denying women's suffrage is also "constitutional". Nowhere does the actual document give the federal government a say in marriage. You can quote all day long but you can't put it in the constitution.


Are you saying that rights must be enumerated in the Constitution for them to be held by people?


>>>>
Powers have to be enumerated in order for the federal government to have authority to regulate. If you've never read the Federalist Papers, please bow out of the conversation as you lack the education needed to contribute intelligently to the conversation.

1. You didn't asnwer the question, instead you deflect. You indicated that marriage was not a right because it isn't listed as so in the Constitution. Why not a direct answer on the comment you made. Must rights held by people be enumerated in the Constitution as you alluded?

2. Secondly, yes I've read the Federalist Papers, however the 14th Amendment was passed long after they were written.

3. The power of the United States government to ensure that States provide equal protections and due process under the laws and shall not infringe on the rights of citizens is enumerated in the 14th Amendment.


>>>>
Are you arguing the 14th Amendment undid the 10th? It isn't open ended and cites specific exclusionary criteria. It's absurd to suggest the 14th deprived the states the power to regulate marriage. Such an open ended interpretation renders the entire constitution meaningless just like the Leftist rendition of the Welfare Clause. It's a recipe for unbridled statism and I can promise you that's not what the advocates had in mind.

And it's clear you didn't understand the Federalist Papers.
It's clear you don't understand what is winning the day, equality. You guys should go back to arguing that income taxes are illegal.
 
Stop with the damn pasting. I said there is no constitutional right to get married. You can't float the asinine argument that the SC equals the constitution without conceding that slavery and denying women's suffrage is also "constitutional". Nowhere does the actual document give the federal government a say in marriage. You can quote all day long but you can't put it in the constitution.


Are you saying that rights must be enumerated in the Constitution for them to be held by people?


>>>>
Powers have to be enumerated in order for the federal government to have authority to regulate. If you've never read the Federalist Papers, please bow out of the conversation as you lack the education needed to contribute intelligently to the conversation.

1. You didn't asnwer the question, instead you deflect. You indicated that marriage was not a right because it isn't listed as so in the Constitution. Why not a direct answer on the comment you made. Must rights held by people be enumerated in the Constitution as you alluded?

2. Secondly, yes I've read the Federalist Papers, however the 14th Amendment was passed long after they were written.

3. The power of the United States government to ensure that States provide equal protections and due process under the laws and shall not infringe on the rights of citizens is enumerated in the 14th Amendment.


>>>>
Are you arguing the 14th Amendment undid the 10th?

Nope. Simply pointing out that it provides for balance between individual rights and state powers.

It isn't open ended and cites specific exclusionary criteria.

Please cite this "exclusionary criteria" from the 14th.

It's absurd to suggest the 14th deprived the states the power to regulate marriage.

Strawman alert, I didn't argue such a position.

Of course the States can regulate Civil Marriage. However such regulation are subject to Constitutional guarantees. For example, the State of Alabama passed a state constitutional amendment to ban interracial marriage. If states had unlimited powers to infringe on individual rights then from your position the SCOTUS ruled incorrectly in Loving v. Virginia and should have upheld state bans on interracial marriage. History shows that didn't happen.

Such an open ended interpretation renders the entire constitution meaningless just like the Leftist rendition of the Welfare Clause. It's a recipe for unbridled statism and I can promise you that's not what the advocates had in mind.

Sorry, not a "leftist", if you want their opinion you would have to ask them. I've been a registered Republican since 1978 whose political philosophy is more of the Goldwater type conservative as opposed to the modern big government "conservative" that has been running my party since the 80's.


>>>>
 

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