A culture of violence

[Katzndogz]

It's been a long day with tragedy and some personal bad news on top of it....I can't tell you why I'm still awake really.

But considering your post and the OP in the light of today's events (both national and private)....I wonder what would happen if we had a nationwide "3 strikes and you're out" law. If you are convicted of 3 crimes; regardless of severity or jurisdiction, you're in jail for life. Boom; gone. It doesn't just apply to violent crime of course.

I doubt there is anything we can do to stop the Marathon type of tragedy really. Getting a larger portion of the criminal element off of the streets and out of society is probably a good start I would imagine.

The ‘3 strikes law’ has always been an abject failure. It is a law of zero tolerance, one of the worst concepts in legal terms that has ever occurred.

This is the same concept that has children suspended because they brought a butter knife to school. No tolerance for weapons at school. It removes all thought from the system and that should NEVER happen. Anything but an asinine 3 strikes policy.

So let me see if I understand you correctly. You are equating a person who has been convicted three times of felonies to a 10 year old who brings a butterknife to school??

Are you serious? Do you really expect us to agree to that line of reasoning?

That's enough to make you cough up your morning coffee.

The 3 strikes law seldom put someone away for long based on 3 strikes. Usually, they are 10 or 15 strikes because defense attorneys always get at least one strike thrown out.

 

[candycorn]

Simple, get rid of the violent people. War is another thing entirely. You can take a gun away from a violent criminal, but he will just find something else to kill with. Never underestimate a criminal's will for improvisation.

It's been a long day with tragedy and some personal bad news on top of it....I can't tell you why I'm still awake really.

But considering your post and the OP in the light of today's events (both national and private)....I wonder what would happen if we had a nationwide "3 strikes and you're out" law. If you are convicted of 3 crimes; regardless of severity or jurisdiction, you're in jail for life. Boom; gone. It doesn't just apply to violent crime of course.

I doubt there is anything we can do to stop the Marathon type of tragedy really. Getting a larger portion of the criminal element off of the streets and out of society is probably a good start I would imagine.

The ‘3 strikes law’ has always been an abject failure. It is a law of zero tolerance, one of the worst concepts in legal terms that has ever occurred.

This is the same concept that has children suspended because they brought a butter knife to school. No tolerance for weapons at school. It removes all thought from the system and that should NEVER happen. Anything but an asinine 3 strikes policy.

Id ask you to support that with facts.

 

[buckeye45_73]

And how is it it that none of the slave states had a proper economy? Precisely because there was a lack of the movement of goods and services due to the suppression of wage labor. The same problem in any plutocracy

Of cvourse they had a proper economy. Where the fuck do they teach this?

If they had, they wouldn't have got their asses handed to them in the Civil War. It certainly wasn't as if the Union had superior Generals.

Uh it had nothing to do with their economy. It was 2 things mainly.
1)The fact that many of the people in the south werent allowed to use weapons (aka the slaves) and they were then at a huge population disadvantage....
2) They didnt use industry, because they were rich as hell without it....they were kind of like the environmentalists of their day, not wanting to use modern technology (and yes environmentalists HATE electricity.....ask them what is the most preferred way to generate it)


and that's what Grant and Sherman took advantage of....they in effect waged a war of attrition and use modern tech as well as superior numbers and won.

Aka McClellan was a meglomanica horrible general and DEMOCRAT...I'll take republicans Grant and Sherman any day....toss in Phil Sheridan....and well you see.

 

[whitehall]

I keep hearing politicians and pundits say that we don't have a problem with guns, but rather with violence. So let's have at it!

What can be done to reform a culture in which every interaction is made a competition for status, in which life's preservation is a commodity to be bought in the marketplace, in which radio propagandists regularly call some members of society "parasites" or "a waste of oxygen"?

Maybe the poster is in a safe house in the Mid-East or is just a victim of the left wing union based education system in the US. What the politicians are saying is that the perceived (by the hate-America crowd) problem with "guns" is actually a problem with violence. The politicians never said America is a violent Country. In fact most of the foreign hate-America crowd owe their DNA to the sacrifices America made in the 20th century.

 

[buckeye45_73]

Simple, get rid of the violent people. War is another thing entirely. You can take a gun away from a violent criminal, but he will just find something else to kill with. Never underestimate a criminal's will for improvisation.

It's been a long day with tragedy and some personal bad news on top of it....I can't tell you why I'm still awake really.

But considering your post and the OP in the light of today's events (both national and private)....I wonder what would happen if we had a nationwide "3 strikes and you're out" law. If you are convicted of 3 crimes; regardless of severity or jurisdiction, you're in jail for life. Boom; gone. It doesn't just apply to violent crime of course.

I doubt there is anything we can do to stop the Marathon type of tragedy really. Getting a larger portion of the criminal element off of the streets and out of society is probably a good start I would imagine.

The ‘3 strikes law’ has always been an abject failure. It is a law of zero tolerance, one of the worst concepts in legal terms that has ever occurred.

This is the same concept that has children suspended because they brought a butter knife to school. No tolerance for weapons at school. It removes all thought from the system and that should NEVER happen. Anything but an asinine 3 strikes policy.

how has it been a failure? I mean how many times can you break the law? They dont include traffic incidents and other misdemeanors

 

[FA_Q2]

So let me see if I understand you correctly. You are equating a person who has been convicted three times of felonies to a 10 year old who brings a butterknife to school??

Are you serious? Do you really expect us to agree to that line of reasoning?

I do because the thought process is identical. You seem to think that only people who are hardened criminals that perform terrible acts are considered under a three strikes policy. Look at CA, it is a shining example where that was the intent and it failed precisely because there is no play.

My grandfather was a in a jury no one such case where the person in question was 19 years old, had 2 other petty theft charges against him and on the third was facing life. The last count, he stole a game console with some games from his mother’s house. Ignorant fool thought it was his because it was ‘his’ as a child when he lived with her. They called the cops and things went from there. Almost spent life in prison because the law had no leeway and he never committed a violent crime.

You might think that he deserved life in prison but I am not willing to accept that. The punishment should fit the crime. I am not willing to subsidize another criminal for his entire life because of ignorant laws that create hard jail terms. Life rarely resembles what the law is attempting at. Jail time should look at whether or not the offender is likely to ever be anything in society, what crime was committed and how badly the crime injured the ones wronged. There are a LOT of details that should be part of sentencing and blanket rules rarely, if ever, do the justice system good.

Again, these same principals play out in ‘sexting’ cases as well. If there are hard line sentences where judges have little leeway, there would be tons of children sentenced as sex offenders for taking nude pictures of themselves and sending them to their boy/girlfriends. Again, no tolerance is a dumb concept only fit for a police state.


Are you really willing to give the government that power without the judicial system having some sort of leeway?

 

[OriginalShroom]

The issue was't the law, but the application of it.

 

[The Rabbi]

The "culture of violence" is largely a product of inner city black culture, itself a copy of southern redneck culture. It thrives on lack of responsibility, which has been facilitated by the state welfare apparatus which encourages irresponsible behavior. Throwing more money at schools will not do anything. You have to start with making responsible for their own actions and for their own care and feeding.

You really have no idea what a "redneck" is besides what you have seen put out by Liberals in Hollywood have you?

I'm a firearms dealer in TN and have lived here for 30 years. You do the math.

 

[Agit8r]

Democrats like Obama claim they want unity, but every speech they make is about divisions. Women against Men, Blacks against Whites, Poor against Rich, Hispanics against everyone, Gays against Straights, Illegals immigrants against legal immigrants.
.

Examples?

Or did you just believe what the far-right media told you?

 

[FA_Q2]

The issue was't the law, but the application of it.

The application is ALWAYS the problem when you try and fit the grey world into a black and white standard.

 

[The Rabbi]

Democrats like Obama claim they want unity, but every speech they make is about divisions. Women against Men, Blacks against Whites, Poor against Rich, Hispanics against everyone, Gays against Straights, Illegals immigrants against legal immigrants.
.

Examples?

Or did you just believe what the far-right media told you?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xxUxO820PE]Joe Biden To Supporters: Mitt Romney Will 'Put You All Back In Chains' - YouTube[/ame]


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9ev0LY8pzU]Fiscal Cliff Obama accuses Republicans of protecting the rich as 'fiscal cliff' deadline approaches - YouTube[/ame]

Yeah, I know. They're right so it makes it OK.

 

[Agit8r]

Democrats like Obama claim they want unity, but every speech they make is about divisions. Women against Men, Blacks against Whites, Poor against Rich, Hispanics against everyone, Gays against Straights, Illegals immigrants against legal immigrants.
.

Examples?

Or did you just believe what the far-right media told you?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xxUxO820PE]Joe Biden To Supporters: Mitt Romney Will 'Put You All Back In Chains' - YouTube[/ame]


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9ev0LY8pzU]Fiscal Cliff Obama accuses Republicans of protecting the rich as 'fiscal cliff' deadline approaches - YouTube[/ame]

Yeah, I know. They're right so it makes it OK.

so... you found two examples that SORT OF fit "poor against rich." Perhaps you could find just one example from any one of the other categories?

 

[NoTeaPartyPleez]

To append to the above, remember that Gun Violence is the EFFECT of crime, not the CAUSE.

But it is the most commonly used and easiest form of violent death, for obvious reasons.

We go nuts and mourn on a national scale if someone from another country kills 3000 of our citizens but are impassive and unmoved when we kill our own on a grand scale.

"""Since 9/11, the Brady Campaign tells us, there have been an estimated 334,168 gun deaths* in the United States, a figure that includes homicides, suicides, and unintentional shooting deaths. The total is 100 times larger than the toll of September 11, 2001. Each year, since that day, approximately 30,000 people have been killed by firearms in America.""
Under a Blood Red Sky
Andrew Cohen Jul 21 2012
Under a Blood Red Sky - Andrew Cohen - The Atlantic

 

[The Rabbi]

Examples?

Or did you just believe what the far-right media told you?

Yeah, I know. They're right so it makes it OK.

so... you found two examples that SORT OF fit "poor against rich." Perhaps you could find just one example from any one of the other categories?

Oh, moving the goalposts? So when (not if) I find just what you are asking for, then it will be "well he/she doesnt represent the Democrattic Party." Or some other such crap.
Oh. here.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS1ncuCBK5o]Chris Matthews Perplexed That Blacks Could Support 'Pure Racism' Of The Tea Party - YouTube[/ame]

 

[FA_Q2]

To append to the above, remember that Gun Violence is the EFFECT of crime, not the CAUSE.

But it is the most commonly used and easiest form of violent death, for obvious reasons.

We go nuts and mourn on a national scale if someone from another country kills 3000 of our citizens but are impassive and unmoved when we kill our own on a grand scale.

"""Since 9/11, the Brady Campaign tells us, there have been an estimated 334,168 gun deaths* in the United States, a figure that includes homicides, suicides, and unintentional shooting deaths. The total is 100 times larger than the toll of September 11, 2001. Each year, since that day, approximately 30,000 people have been killed by firearms in America.""
Under a Blood Red Sky
Andrew Cohen Jul 21 2012
Under a Blood Red Sky - Andrew Cohen - The Atlantic

But the question is not how many are killed in that context but how do those numbers change when policies that you are quoting that data to reinforce are created (aka. Gun control)



The reality is that they simply don’t change.

 

[The Rabbi]

Yeah, I know. They're right so it makes it OK.

so... you found two examples that SORT OF fit "poor against rich." Perhaps you could find just one example from any one of the other categories?

Oh, moving the goalposts? So when (not if) I find just what you are asking for, then it will be "well he/she doesnt represent the Democrattic Party." Or some other such crap.
Oh. here.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS1ncuCBK5o]Chris Matthews Perplexed That Blacks Could Support 'Pure Racism' Of The Tea Party - YouTube[/ame]

And Agit2r has left the room. This always happens when libs are shown to be the low information simps they are.

 

[Katzndogz]

So let me see if I understand you correctly. You are equating a person who has been convicted three times of felonies to a 10 year old who brings a butterknife to school??

Are you serious? Do you really expect us to agree to that line of reasoning?

I do because the thought process is identical. You seem to think that only people who are hardened criminals that perform terrible acts are considered under a three strikes policy. Look at CA, it is a shining example where that was the intent and it failed precisely because there is no play.

My grandfather was a in a jury no one such case where the person in question was 19 years old, had 2 other petty theft charges against him and on the third was facing life. The last count, he stole a game console with some games from his mother’s house. Ignorant fool thought it was his because it was ‘his’ as a child when he lived with her. They called the cops and things went from there. Almost spent life in prison because the law had no leeway and he never committed a violent crime.

You might think that he deserved life in prison but I am not willing to accept that. The punishment should fit the crime. I am not willing to subsidize another criminal for his entire life because of ignorant laws that create hard jail terms. Life rarely resembles what the law is attempting at. Jail time should look at whether or not the offender is likely to ever be anything in society, what crime was committed and how badly the crime injured the ones wronged. There are a LOT of details that should be part of sentencing and blanket rules rarely, if ever, do the justice system good.

Again, these same principals play out in ‘sexting’ cases as well. If there are hard line sentences where judges have little leeway, there would be tons of children sentenced as sex offenders for taking nude pictures of themselves and sending them to their boy/girlfriends. Again, no tolerance is a dumb concept only fit for a police state.


Are you really willing to give the government that power without the judicial system having some sort of leeway?

This whole story is untrue. For one thing, no crime, no matter how violent, committed by someone under 18 is used as a strike in California. A 19 year old with two crimes in a year is a career criminal. Not every crime is a strike. A strike must be a violent crime. Two violent crimes in the past and the third strike has be a violent or non violent but serious felony. Petty theft would never qualify as a strike crime. In addition, to make this story patently untrue, there isn't a single defense attorney in the state that would not make his first court appearance a motion to exclude one or more strikes. By the time the three strikes law is applied, the defendant doesn't have three strikes but many, many strikes, dozens sometimes, all of which have been excluded by motion.

Don't come around with grandpa BS. It doesn't fly.

http://vig.cdn.sos.ca.gov/2012/general/pdf/36-title-summ-analysis.pdf

Explanation for those who still don't understand.

California "Three Strikes" Law Defined & Explained

 

[FA_Q2]

So let me see if I understand you correctly. You are equating a person who has been convicted three times of felonies to a 10 year old who brings a butterknife to school??

Are you serious? Do you really expect us to agree to that line of reasoning?

I do because the thought process is identical. You seem to think that only people who are hardened criminals that perform terrible acts are considered under a three strikes policy. Look at CA, it is a shining example where that was the intent and it failed precisely because there is no play.

My grandfather was a in a jury no one such case where the person in question was 19 years old, had 2 other petty theft charges against him and on the third was facing life. The last count, he stole a game console with some games from his mother’s house. Ignorant fool thought it was his because it was ‘his’ as a child when he lived with her. They called the cops and things went from there. Almost spent life in prison because the law had no leeway and he never committed a violent crime.

You might think that he deserved life in prison but I am not willing to accept that. The punishment should fit the crime. I am not willing to subsidize another criminal for his entire life because of ignorant laws that create hard jail terms. Life rarely resembles what the law is attempting at. Jail time should look at whether or not the offender is likely to ever be anything in society, what crime was committed and how badly the crime injured the ones wronged. There are a LOT of details that should be part of sentencing and blanket rules rarely, if ever, do the justice system good.

Again, these same principals play out in ‘sexting’ cases as well. If there are hard line sentences where judges have little leeway, there would be tons of children sentenced as sex offenders for taking nude pictures of themselves and sending them to their boy/girlfriends. Again, no tolerance is a dumb concept only fit for a police state.


Are you really willing to give the government that power without the judicial system having some sort of leeway?

This whole story is untrue. For one thing, no crime, no matter how violent, committed by someone under 18 is used as a strike in California. A 19 year old with two crimes in a year is a career criminal. Not every crime is a strike. A strike must be a violent crime. Two violent crimes in the past and the third strike has be a violent or non violent but serious felony. Petty theft would never qualify as a strike crime. In addition, to make this story patently untrue, there isn't a single defense attorney in the state that would not make his first court appearance a motion to exclude one or more strikes. By the time the three strikes law is applied, the defendant doesn't have three strikes but many, many strikes, dozens sometimes, all of which have been excluded by motion.

Don't come around with grandpa BS. It doesn't fly.

http://vig.cdn.sos.ca.gov/2012/general/pdf/36-title-summ-analysis.pdf

Explanation for those who still don't understand.

California "Three Strikes" Law Defined & Explained

Its true and I don’t need you to verify. I don’t care if you don’t believe me, you are irrelevant.