A Different Topic - We need UNIONS!

[Unkotare]

We do need Onions. They are essential to any good beef stew.

 

[Unkotare]

What we don't need is protectionism, worker coercion, and political corruption and cronyism in the guise of 'workers rights' bullshit.

 

[Unkotare]

I was forced once to join a union by three guys who followed me into a bathroom. It wasn't a request.

And you joined? Under those conditions? I thought better of you.

 

[PrometheusBound]

You are on the right track.. Unions as they exist today are fossilized dinosaurs..

They don't recognize the changing definition of "a job", don't allow flexible labor regs, and most importantly --- they don't give a rip about an individual CAREER..

Professional Orgs offer some insight for a new model.. Focus on CAREER training, advancement, and (as you mentioned) acquiring MULTIPLE SKILLS to make the overall company work efficiently.. Much different than embracing the stinky old anti-corporate, anti-capitalist paradigms that are killing them AND US..

Global competition is a whole OTHER issue.. NOT SOLVED by the methods which workers decide to organize. THAT is an issue of getting capital to flow to INNOVATION and RISK so that America does what the rest of the world CAN'T DO better and cheaper..

Unions actually don't really even EXIST anymore. When the government became authoritarian and anti-labor under the Reagan regime, labor unions essentially were outlawed. There is no appreciable labor movement allowed in the U.S. today.

This was done to suppress wages, and national health care has been resisted to reduce worker mobility.

The U.S. is a nation of wage slaves.

This is mere deflection of blame for the unwinding of Union memberships.. Had the Unions been SUPPORTED BY POLITICAL favoritism --- we would have lost our manufacturing advantage sooner.. NO interest should be in collusion with the Govt..

We are becoming a nation of wage slaves because OUR KIDS are not filling the Science and Engineering classes at Univ. level.. Foreign kids are.. And we did not hear the advice that America needs to leads in TECHNOLOGY and INNOVATION.. Instead -- we're stewing in a class war and a stagnant economy with little or no capital going to risk ventures..

If students aren't paid a salary in college, they aren't worth anything. The ones we have had graduate under this class-biased indentured-servitude system have dragged down the economy for decades. They are just Mamas' Boys willing to work without pay and live like 15-year-olds because they are afraid to grow up. America deserves its fate for demanding that the talented sacrifice their youth. You get what you pay for.

 

[Unkotare]

Unions actually don't really even EXIST anymore. When the government became authoritarian and anti-labor under the Reagan regime, labor unions essentially were outlawed. There is no appreciable labor movement allowed in the U.S. today.

This was done to suppress wages, and national health care has been resisted to reduce worker mobility.

The U.S. is a nation of wage slaves.

This is mere deflection of blame for the unwinding of Union memberships.. Had the Unions been SUPPORTED BY POLITICAL favoritism --- we would have lost our manufacturing advantage sooner.. NO interest should be in collusion with the Govt..

We are becoming a nation of wage slaves because OUR KIDS are not filling the Science and Engineering classes at Univ. level.. Foreign kids are.. And we did not hear the advice that America needs to leads in TECHNOLOGY and INNOVATION.. Instead -- we're stewing in a class war and a stagnant economy with little or no capital going to risk ventures..

If students aren't paid a salary in college, they aren't worth anything. The ones we have had graduate under this class-biased indentured-servitude system have dragged down the economy for decades. They are just Mamas' Boys willing to work without pay and live like 15-year-olds because they are afraid to grow up. America deserves its fate for demanding that the talented sacrifice their youth. You get what you pay for.

Another anti-education lefty.

 

[Sallow]

The OP misses the point. The reason wages are down and declining is due to lackluster economic growth and oppressive/excessive government which favors Big Bank and Big Corp Cronies.

You're to much.

 

[Sallow]

Don't mind them lobbying as long as it's not about acquiring power or coersive abilities..
While they are lobbying -- they ought to go for policies that put folks INTO industries that CAN SUPPORT living wages. Instead of trying to inflate the job salaries of their CURRENT memberships..

It's counterproductive to promote THE JOB --- and not the person in it...

THere is a primary reason for current union failures..

The "primary" reason for Unions failing is money.

They cannot keep up with the spending that their corporate adversaries engage in.

Hence the stagnant wages and jobs going over seas.

There ya go again.. "their corporate adversaries"... Don't see a problem with that?
Why isn't the focus on their REAL ADVERSARY --- automation and modernization.. ((See EdgeTho's story above)). Even the Chinese don't want cheap labor. They are smart enough to know they can't build dorms and cafeterias for MILLIONS of workers who produce sub par efficiencies.. THEY are investing HEAVILY in automation and modernization. Within a decade --- Chinese labor is gonna be in a similiar boat..

Unions need to realize we don't need folks to pull the same lever everyday.. We need folks who write scripts for robotics. We don't need as many store checkout clerks, we need point of sale technicians. We dont need screwdriver turners, we need industrial and mechanical designers driving CAD automation. The schools need to realize we need FLEXIBLE workers. Folks who know HOW TO LEARN.

How much learning and flexibility do the unions currently promote? Shouldn't THEY? Too many excuses for failure and a basic denial that they need to leave the 19th century behind.

Um..labor and management are adversaries. That's not going to change any time soon. What the UNION's primary function should be is to advocate for labor. They shouldn't be in the business of 'training' anyone.

That's what schools are for..

 

[flacaltenn]

The "primary" reason for Unions failing is money.

They cannot keep up with the spending that their corporate adversaries engage in.

Hence the stagnant wages and jobs going over seas.

There ya go again.. "their corporate adversaries"... Don't see a problem with that?
Why isn't the focus on their REAL ADVERSARY --- automation and modernization.. ((See EdgeTho's story above)). Even the Chinese don't want cheap labor. They are smart enough to know they can't build dorms and cafeterias for MILLIONS of workers who produce sub par efficiencies.. THEY are investing HEAVILY in automation and modernization. Within a decade --- Chinese labor is gonna be in a similiar boat..

Unions need to realize we don't need folks to pull the same lever everyday.. We need folks who write scripts for robotics. We don't need as many store checkout clerks, we need point of sale technicians. We dont need screwdriver turners, we need industrial and mechanical designers driving CAD automation. The schools need to realize we need FLEXIBLE workers. Folks who know HOW TO LEARN.

How much learning and flexibility do the unions currently promote? Shouldn't THEY? Too many excuses for failure and a basic denial that they need to leave the 19th century behind.

Um..labor and management are adversaries. That's not going to change any time soon. What the UNION's primary function should be is to advocate for labor. They shouldn't be in the business of 'training' anyone.

That's what schools are for..

If that's how much unions think about their members careers ---- Ain't anything I can do save them from extinction.. Your "school" education is NOT enough for the rate at which job DESCRIPTIONS are changing..

And they are not "advocating for labor".. They are advocating for RIGID work rules and money. Nothing in their field of view about how the definition and expectations of a job is changing rapidly...

 

[Sallow]

There ya go again.. "their corporate adversaries"... Don't see a problem with that?
Why isn't the focus on their REAL ADVERSARY --- automation and modernization.. ((See EdgeTho's story above)). Even the Chinese don't want cheap labor. They are smart enough to know they can't build dorms and cafeterias for MILLIONS of workers who produce sub par efficiencies.. THEY are investing HEAVILY in automation and modernization. Within a decade --- Chinese labor is gonna be in a similiar boat..

Unions need to realize we don't need folks to pull the same lever everyday.. We need folks who write scripts for robotics. We don't need as many store checkout clerks, we need point of sale technicians. We dont need screwdriver turners, we need industrial and mechanical designers driving CAD automation. The schools need to realize we need FLEXIBLE workers. Folks who know HOW TO LEARN.

How much learning and flexibility do the unions currently promote? Shouldn't THEY? Too many excuses for failure and a basic denial that they need to leave the 19th century behind.

Um..labor and management are adversaries. That's not going to change any time soon. What the UNION's primary function should be is to advocate for labor. They shouldn't be in the business of 'training' anyone.

That's what schools are for..

If that's how much unions think about their members careers ---- Ain't anything I can do save them from extinction.. Your "school" education is NOT enough for the rate at which job DESCRIPTIONS are changing..

And they are not "advocating for labor".. They are advocating for RIGID work rules and money. Nothing in their field of view about how the definition and expectations of a job is changing rapidly...

Nothing's enough.

You ever try to get a job in a tech field these days?

When I lost my job at the NYSE almost every single shop put me through a week long series of interviews and asked about a crap load of tech. They wanted me to be a DB admin, a system admin, a network admin, a programmer, a Microsoft admin, a UNIX admin, and a plethora of other types of admins rolled into one.

I was like, who the fuck knows all that stuff? That's like 10 different fields of specialization.

The job I finally got, put me through a month long of interviews with people from here and Pune, India. After that I had to take several tests including coding in a language I didn't know..but I fudged it well enough to get the job.

Once I started working? It's like I am the go to guy. I haven't been here for a year and already I am team leader on my way to becoming a manager.

However..it should not be that way. Companies should be much more flexible.

People should come in with baseline skills and companies should make them proficient in the stuff they want them to know.

That's how it use to be in tech.

 

[Jarlaxle]

We need unions as much as we "need" a case of the clap!

 

[Jarlaxle]

I was forced once to join a union by three guys who followed me into a bathroom. It wasn't a request.

And you joined? Under those conditions? I thought better of you.

Had he not, he'd probably be dead.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Unions actually don't really even EXIST anymore. When the government became authoritarian and anti-labor under the Reagan regime, labor unions essentially were outlawed. There is no appreciable labor movement allowed in the U.S. today.

This was done to suppress wages, and national health care has been resisted to reduce worker mobility.

The U.S. is a nation of wage slaves.

This is mere deflection of blame for the unwinding of Union memberships.. Had the Unions been SUPPORTED BY POLITICAL favoritism --- we would have lost our manufacturing advantage sooner.. NO interest should be in collusion with the Govt..

We are becoming a nation of wage slaves because OUR KIDS are not filling the Science and Engineering classes at Univ. level.. Foreign kids are.. And we did not hear the advice that America needs to leads in TECHNOLOGY and INNOVATION.. Instead -- we're stewing in a class war and a stagnant economy with little or no capital going to risk ventures..

If students aren't paid a salary in college, they aren't worth anything. The ones we have had graduate under this class-biased indentured-servitude system have dragged down the economy for decades. They are just Mamas' Boys willing to work without pay and live like 15-year-olds because they are afraid to grow up. America deserves its fate for demanding that the talented sacrifice their youth. You get what you pay for.

Are you on DRUGS, boy?!?!

 

[Vox]

The problem with the unions are their leadership which eventually becomes worse than professional prostitutes.

Plus the unions then have to be in EVERY aspect of life.

Imagine unionized bankers

 

[Duped]

Fuck the unions; they will inevitably conspire with the politicians to fuck the people.

 

[Old Rocks]

You are on the right track.. Unions as they exist today are fossilized dinosaurs..

They don't recognize the changing definition of "a job", don't allow flexible labor regs, and most importantly --- they don't give a rip about an individual CAREER..

Professional Orgs offer some insight for a new model.. Focus on CAREER training, advancement, and (as you mentioned) acquiring MULTIPLE SKILLS to make the overall company work efficiently.. Much different than embracing the stinky old anti-corporate, anti-capitalist paradigms that are killing them AND US..

Global competition is a whole OTHER issue.. NOT SOLVED by the methods which workers decide to organize. THAT is an issue of getting capital to flow to INNOVATION and RISK so that America does what the rest of the world CAN'T DO better and cheaper..

Unions actually don't really even EXIST anymore. When the government became authoritarian and anti-labor under the Reagan regime, labor unions essentially were outlawed. There is no appreciable labor movement allowed in the U.S. today.

This was done to suppress wages, and national health care has been resisted to reduce worker mobility.

The U.S. is a nation of wage slaves.

This is mere deflection of blame for the unwinding of Union memberships.. Had the Unions been SUPPORTED BY POLITICAL favoritism --- we would have lost our manufacturing advantage sooner.. NO interest should be in collusion with the Govt..

We are becoming a nation of wage slaves because OUR KIDS are not filling the Science and Engineering classes at Univ. level.. Foreign kids are.. And we did not hear the advice that America needs to leads in TECHNOLOGY and INNOVATION.. Instead -- we're stewing in a class war and a stagnant economy with little or no capital going to risk ventures..

Do you really know what it costs to go to even an inexpensive university? I do. I am currently taking two classes per quarter. Now I own my own home, and have a good job. Even so, 2K+ for just 9 credits makes a hole in my budget. And I make double the average blue collar income. Science classes are especially expensive. Notebooks and lab supplies.

Another point is that it is not just outsourcing that is affecting the labor market, but equally serious for those without a craft or higher education, is robosourcing. If your job is simple, a machine can do it. In fact, the last sawmill I helped construct used more maintenance people than production people. And that was many years ago.

When you pay our best scientists and engineers on the par with what second string linebackers make in the NFL, you will see a lot more engineers and scientists. Right now, even little South Korea graduates more engineers than the US does.

 

[skookerasbil]

LOL.....unions are basically dead in this country. And nobody cares. Been going into the shitter for a good 30 years now.

 

[flacaltenn]

Um..labor and management are adversaries. That's not going to change any time soon. What the UNION's primary function should be is to advocate for labor. They shouldn't be in the business of 'training' anyone.

That's what schools are for..

If that's how much unions think about their members careers ---- Ain't anything I can do save them from extinction.. Your "school" education is NOT enough for the rate at which job DESCRIPTIONS are changing..

And they are not "advocating for labor".. They are advocating for RIGID work rules and money. Nothing in their field of view about how the definition and expectations of a job is changing rapidly...

Nothing's enough.

You ever try to get a job in a tech field these days?

When I lost my job at the NYSE almost every single shop put me through a week long series of interviews and asked about a crap load of tech. They wanted me to be a DB admin, a system admin, a network admin, a programmer, a Microsoft admin, a UNIX admin, and a plethora of other types of admins rolled into one.

I was like, who the fuck knows all that stuff? That's like 10 different fields of specialization.

The job I finally got, put me through a month long of interviews with people from here and Pune, India. After that I had to take several tests including coding in a language I didn't know..but I fudged it well enough to get the job.

Once I started working? It's like I am the go to guy. I haven't been here for a year and already I am team leader on my way to becoming a manager.

However..it should not be that way. Companies should be much more flexible.

People should come in with baseline skills and companies should make them proficient in the stuff they want them to know.

That's how it use to be in tech.

I bet they also want you to write your own reports, handle your own expense account, buy your own materials and wire up your own servers and workstations..

Which is the point. Companies CAN'T provide this flexibility and training under UNION work rules. There was a time when I wasn't allowed to move my own oscilloscope down the hall without a union man with a cart.. Times have changed.

The TOOLS are there to MAKE people productive.. MANY tools.. A union man is allowed ONE tool at a time.. They cannot succeed unless they accept the changing definition of a job...

I remember back in the 80s, Sweden experimented with cross-training union members on several jobs. Was complicated as hell to negotiate but the workers LIJKED IT and it made sense. That was before an employee was expected to be jack o' all trades or computers on a desktop. Imagine how complicated the negotiations would be for YOUR responsibilities...

Crap.. Just the sheer number of jobs that APPLY to rigid Union work rules are shrinking faster than OJ's prison jumpsuit.. They are getting to be rare...

 

[flacaltenn]

Unions actually don't really even EXIST anymore. When the government became authoritarian and anti-labor under the Reagan regime, labor unions essentially were outlawed. There is no appreciable labor movement allowed in the U.S. today.

This was done to suppress wages, and national health care has been resisted to reduce worker mobility.

The U.S. is a nation of wage slaves.

This is mere deflection of blame for the unwinding of Union memberships.. Had the Unions been SUPPORTED BY POLITICAL favoritism --- we would have lost our manufacturing advantage sooner.. NO interest should be in collusion with the Govt..

We are becoming a nation of wage slaves because OUR KIDS are not filling the Science and Engineering classes at Univ. level.. Foreign kids are.. And we did not hear the advice that America needs to leads in TECHNOLOGY and INNOVATION.. Instead -- we're stewing in a class war and a stagnant economy with little or no capital going to risk ventures..

Do you really know what it costs to go to even an inexpensive university? I do. I am currently taking two classes per quarter. Now I own my own home, and have a good job. Even so, 2K+ for just 9 credits makes a hole in my budget. And I make double the average blue collar income. Science classes are especially expensive. Notebooks and lab supplies.

Another point is that it is not just outsourcing that is affecting the labor market, but equally serious for those without a craft or higher education, is robosourcing. If your job is simple, a machine can do it. In fact, the last sawmill I helped construct used more maintenance people than production people. And that was many years ago.

When you pay our best scientists and engineers on the par with what second string linebackers make in the NFL, you will see a lot more engineers and scientists. Right now, even little South Korea graduates more engineers than the US does.

I've got a daughter in college right now --- so I'm familiar with the costs. I told her if she did her undergrad at a state school, I'd treat her like a princess and get her through mostly debt free and then we could discuss grad school. OR -- she could go to an elite school, get neglected for 4 yrs and live like a pauper and have a debt.

My point was --- technology drives us OUT of danger of losing standard of living.. OUR KIDS need to be filling those STEM (science, tech, eng, math) slots --- not foreigners. Not everyone is gonna be a chemist or engineer, but new ventures will create jobs at all levels.. While you're at it -- bring back secondary vocational training and apprenticeships.. Because THOSE service jobs can be good careers as well.. Craftsmen and journeymen are STILL required.

(I actually think that most inner city kids in poor academic situations CAN prepare for tech related jobs and innovation.. If they can put together a MIDI audio system to be a D.J. --- they can do robotic scripting.. )

Robosourcing is not all doom and gloom. With flexible robotics and 3D printing small lines can reconfigure products in days or hours. And people can make a living building NICHE goods that couldn't be customized or done efficiently before. Nothing wrong with moving from lever puller to robotic trainer.

If you look at examples of labor evolution like "self-checkout" lanes at the market, you see that the labor hasn't vanished.. It's be re-purposed to an in-store bakery or actual meat market or floral section or even a prescription counter. Same at Home Depot where labor is re-purposed to holding customer "How to" seminars or doing installations.

But EVERY laborer needs to be willing to flex and learn.. And the unions are NOT MODELED for this kind of accomodation.. They NEED to evolve or die...

 

[jasonnfree]

After WWII, most of the World's Industrial capacity had been bombed to rubble.

Literally. Germany, Belgium, Holland, France (mostly by us) Japan, Italy....

Except us. We were just fine. In fact, we had made so much money selling War Supplies to England that it almost covered up the incompetence of the 3rd Worst president in History -- FDR.

At one time during 1941, the US had 14.6% Unemployment. Hard to believe? Not at all. FDR really was that bad and that incompetent.

I digress..... After the War, Britain had some Industrial Capacity but they immediately kicked Winston Churchill to the curb and elected a socialist.

Which totally fucked Britain for the next 40 years.

Germany was a big pile of debris. So was Japan. China had no industrial capacity.....

The only people that could make anything was -- The good ol' US of A.

And we did. We made ANYTHING. And a lot of was just simply JUNK.

Take it however you want, I don't care. I was in the heart of Industry in Cleveland Ohio at the time. Trust me, it was a lot of JUNK.

Manufacturers saw the Germans and Japanese re-tooling and said, "Boys, thems some smart people over there. We need to modernize or we're going to get left behind."

The Unions SLAMMED the door on them. Told them that if they even THOUGHT about modernizing, they'd strike and shut 'em down.

And they would.

I was there. I physically, personally witnessed it.... First hand. I even talked to an Executive VP of Republic Steel about it.

Unions killed American Industry.

Unions and the EPA. Like there's a difference. dimocrap scum. Same thing.

I could see the EPA being hard-asses. I was there when the Cuyahoga River caught fire. Kinda embarrassing.

But they were so incredibly heavy-handed. Guys, I swear to God, they were worse than Nazis.

I was also there when a Federal Judge ruled that Companies inside the City Limits of Cleveland had to have a work force representative of the population of Cleveland.

Which at the time was about 70%.

No time was allowed. I was there.

I watched them hire people that, honest to God, should have been in Prison. Lice-infested, disease-carrying, thieving, drugged-up, dirty street scum.

I was there people.

Don't quote some ass-wipe's bullshit history to me. I WATCHED it unfold. day by day, week by week, month by month until I finally left in 1977.

I knew it was going to go to hell in a hand basket.

It did.

So you know what? Anybody wanna talk to me about Unions?

As far as I'm concerned, they should take them all out and horse whip them. Then smear them with tar and drag them out of town behind a smoking, oil-burning 1985 LTD.

I live in a "Right To Work'' State now and love it. We are so much more modern, so much more prosperous, so much happier, so much better off than ANY Union State.... It isn't even funny.

Union States are dying.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

I could say that I believe in Unions, but I just don't believe in stupid Unions.

But once you have Unions, dimocraps infest them and they bring the stupid.

hoo boy, do they ever bring the stupid.

So you're saying the Cuyahoga caught fire because of the EPA? It was catching fire before either of us were born and it was because of industry dumping in it.

 

[jasonnfree]

This is mere deflection of blame for the unwinding of Union memberships.. Had the Unions been SUPPORTED BY POLITICAL favoritism --- we would have lost our manufacturing advantage sooner.. NO interest should be in collusion with the Govt..

We are becoming a nation of wage slaves because OUR KIDS are not filling the Science and Engineering classes at Univ. level.. Foreign kids are.. And we did not hear the advice that America needs to leads in TECHNOLOGY and INNOVATION.. Instead -- we're stewing in a class war and a stagnant economy with little or no capital going to risk ventures..

Do you really know what it costs to go to even an inexpensive university? I do. I am currently taking two classes per quarter. Now I own my own home, and have a good job. Even so, 2K+ for just 9 credits makes a hole in my budget. And I make double the average blue collar income. Science classes are especially expensive. Notebooks and lab supplies.

Another point is that it is not just outsourcing that is affecting the labor market, but equally serious for those without a craft or higher education, is robosourcing. If your job is simple, a machine can do it. In fact, the last sawmill I helped construct used more maintenance people than production people. And that was many years ago.

When you pay our best scientists and engineers on the par with what second string linebackers make in the NFL, you will see a lot more engineers and scientists. Right now, even little South Korea graduates more engineers than the US does.

I've got a daughter in college right now --- so I'm familiar with the costs. I told her if she did her undergrad at a state school, I'd treat her like a princess and get her through mostly debt free and then we could discuss grad school. OR -- she could go to an elite school, get neglected for 4 yrs and live like a pauper and have a debt.

My point was --- technology drives us OUT of danger of losing standard of living.. OUR KIDS need to be filling those STEM (science, tech, eng, math) slots --- not foreigners. Not everyone is gonna be a chemist or engineer, but new ventures will create jobs at all levels.. While you're at it -- bring back secondary vocational training and apprenticeships.. Because THOSE service jobs can be good careers as well.. Craftsmen and journeymen are STILL required.

(I actually think that most inner city kids in poor academic situations CAN prepare for tech related jobs and innovation.. If they can put together a MIDI audio system to be a D.J. --- they can do robotic scripting.. )

Robosourcing is not all doom and gloom. With flexible robotics and 3D printing small lines can reconfigure products in days or hours. And people can make a living building NICHE goods that couldn't be customized or done efficiently before. Nothing wrong with moving from lever puller to robotic trainer.

If you look at examples of labor evolution like "self-checkout" lanes at the market, you see that the labor hasn't vanished.. It's be re-purposed to an in-store bakery or actual meat market or floral section or even a prescription counter. Same at Home Depot where labor is re-purposed to holding customer "How to" seminars or doing installations.

But EVERY laborer needs to be willing to flex and learn.. And the unions are NOT MODELED for this kind of accomodation.. They NEED to evolve or die...

I'm ex union and can't disagree, lots of make work and deadbeats. Schools too, some kids better off being apprenticed out at a certain age, maybe age 14 working under a contractor learning to wire a machine shop or whatever. By then he should know how to read, write and do math at least up to pre algebra level if schools are doing their job.