A serious question about Jewish history

[Indofred]

I'm pretty certain at least some of the expulsions were not fueled by hate but rather used anti-Semitism for justification.

True, anti-semitism does not equal hate.

It's really more of a dislike of the jews and not wanting to associate with them.........

But muslims HATE Jews and want to kill them all, I gave you the verses in a previous post. Not just don't like them and don't want to associate with them, that's more how infidels feel towards muslims.

The Jews of Babylon

The oldest and most stable of Jewish communities was saved from the Christians by Muslims sweeping through the Middle East.

Sorry, what was that about Muslims hating Jews?

 

[MHunterB]

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I'm rather hoping this thread will encourage posters to question what they've been told and open their eyes so they can see what's going on.

I know for a fact, some more extreme Muslim outlets depict Jews as baby eating bastards and I'd be more than surprised if the more extreme Jewish teachings didn't claim pretty much the same about Muslims.

I'm hoping posters will read the list in my OP, research at least a few parts of it for themselves and realise there isn't really an enemy in the whole of the opposing theological group, just the mad fools in both groups.

I'm not aware of any such - neither past nor present. I don't think there are tidy neat parallels and 'equivalents' available.

The Jews of Babylon, for example, were beggared and ejected in the late 1940's.... after something like 2600 years.

 

[editec]

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I'm rather hoping this thread will encourage posters to question what they've been told and open their eyes so they can see what's going on.

I know for a fact, some more extreme Muslim outlets depict Jews as baby eating bastards and I'd be more than surprised if the more extreme Jewish teachings didn't claim pretty much the same about Muslims.

I'm hoping posters will read the list in my OP, research at least a few parts of it for themselves and realise there isn't really an enemy in the whole of the opposing theological group, just the mad fools in both groups.

I'm not aware of any such - neither past nor present. I don't think there are tidy neat parallels and 'equivalents' available.

The Jews of Babylon, for example, were beggared and ejected in the late 1940's.... after something like 2600 years.

History is complex.

I know it flies in the face of the general POV here, but trying to characterize the relationship between the Jews and Islam in a few single words is just silly.

Islam has been many different things over the last 1400 years, and the Jews have not been the same people everywhere on earth during that time, either.

XXXXXXX
They're mostly (I think) not interested in truth.

 

[SAYIT]

"there is a diference between expressing pride in your ethnicity by saying "we're good" and saying "we're better than."

Indeed there is - and yet some seem unable to distinguish between the two.

"very early in the discussion is an ecellent example of this and, albeit a bit extreme and lacking in subtlety, is not at all unusual."


To quote someone "could you be any more vague?" Seriously, if you're going to refer to something , quote it so we can all see 'the original' and eac decide if it fits the interpretation you are putting on it.


personally, i have no problem acknowledging the acomplihments of jews as a group or as individuals, but some ethnicities do excel in certain areas and my experience has been jewish people interject themselves into the conversation in a manner that seems to be designed to elevate their accomplishments over those of the people in question."

The last clause of that run-on bit above belies the initial stance - at least as it's written. The very usage of the phrase 'interject themselves into the conversation' has pejorative connotations and appears hostile in intent. Likewise the 'seems to be designed' appears not so much a qualifier as another 'subtle' suggestion of machination and manipulation. And the 'elevating their accomplishments over those of the people in question' is entirely too vague and general to really have much meaning.

"it is the max baer/slapsie maxie rosenbloom paradox i have brought up on occasion. "

Speaking of 'interjecting themselves into the conversation' and 'elevating their accomplishments over those of the people in question" - the poster appears to me to be insinuating thy are somehow 'authoritative' on the topic, and their personal views are something to be cited as a reference.

It's entirely possible that I'm mistaken about the above: I'm just going on the words as I read them. Perhaps something was not included which connects those thoughts together and so I've missed it?

Nah, you've pretty much nailed it. Thanks.

 

[Indofred]

I'm rather hoping this thread will encourage posters to question what they've been told and open their eyes so they can see what's going on.

I know for a fact, some more extreme Muslim outlets depict Jews as baby eating bastards and I'd be more than surprised if the more extreme Jewish teachings didn't claim pretty much the same about Muslims.

I'm hoping posters will read the list in my OP, research at least a few parts of it for themselves and realise there isn't really an enemy in the whole of the opposing theological group, just the mad fools in both groups.

I'm not aware of any such - neither past nor present. I don't think there are tidy neat parallels and 'equivalents' available.

The Jews of Babylon, for example, were beggared and ejected in the late 1940's.... after something like 2600 years.

History is complex.

I know it flies in the face of the general POV here, but trying to characterize the relationship between the Jews and Islam in a few single words is just silly.

Islam has been many different things over the last 1400 years, and the Jews have not been the same people everywhere on earth during that time, either.



They're mostly (I think) not interested in truth.

That all sounds about right, the bold mostly so.
I'm reading hundreds of pages from a wide variety of sources and finding out a whole host of things I was simply unaware of.
I fully admit, I had ideas about the Jews having problems based on financial dealings and so on but, so far, that doesn't show up at all.
Same goes for the theory of Jewish ghettos and other commonly held beliefs.

I've also found something else of interest - loads of sites blindly repost the same list as in my OP but no one, of any political or religious ideal, seems to have ever bothered to look at it.
The "I hate Jews" side simply accept it because it shows Jews as total pillocks whilst the Jewish side blindly accept it because it shows how much they need Israel so no one can do it again.
At least two of the first four on the list are looking dodgy at best as there seems to be nothing anywhere to suggest there is any truth in them.
This same list is on as many Jewish sites as you can find and equally farted out on the extreme right, white power sites.
I've also seen it on a few Muslim sites but not all that many.

I'm rather enjoying the challenge and learning rather a lot while I'm at it.

 

[SAYIT]

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I'm rather hoping this thread will encourage posters to question what they've been told and open their eyes so they can see what's going on.

I know for a fact, some more extreme Muslim outlets depict Jews as baby eating bastards and I'd be more than surprised if the more extreme Jewish teachings didn't claim pretty much the same about Muslims.

I'm hoping posters will read the list in my OP, research at least a few parts of it for themselves and realise there isn't really an enemy in the whole of the opposing theological group, just the mad fools in both groups.

I'm not aware of any such - neither past nor present. I don't think there are tidy neat parallels and 'equivalents' available.

The Jews of Babylon, for example, were beggared and ejected in the late 1940's.... after something like 2600 years.

By "beggared and ejected" do you mean forcibly stripped of their worldly possessions and shown the door?

 

[MHunterB]

True, it's not terribly simple. After all, each one of us - as Fred did indeed point out! - is a complex individual with our own several influences and motivations.

One thing I am certain of, Editec: whoever claims my calling myself a 'Jewish American' means I'm less a loyal patriotic US citizen than another, is doing so in defiance of the rules of English grammar.

Of course the word order is important in English! And when one says (anything)- American, the 'American' is the 'noun' and the (whtever) is its adjective/modifier/subset.

OTOH, if I say I'm an 'American (whatever)' - I'm stating that I'm part of the American version of whatever that whatever is.

In either case, the word order is far less important than what I think. But then it's so easy to decide what I think by laying very much undue stress on the word order, isn't it?

I wish everyone who wants to participate in this forum would read Robert's 'Rules', Strunck & White's 'Elements of Style', Hoffers 'The True Believer', and Lewis' 'The Culture of Poverty': no doubt there are a few other books to suggest.

 

[MHunterB]

"By "beggared and ejected" do you mean forcibly stripped of their worldly possessions and shown the door? "

Pretty much - I think they got to take a suitcase, but then that'd have ben subject to inspection.... NO compensation for property, including LAND OWNED.

The area of acreage so confiscated from Jewish owners throughout the ME, amounts to something like four times the size of the State of Israel.... an interesting comparison.

 

[Indofred]

"By "beggared and ejected" do you mean forcibly stripped of their worldly possessions and shown the door? "

Pretty much - I think they got to take a suitcase, but then that'd have ben subject to inspection.... NO compensation for property, including LAND OWNED.

The area of acreage so confiscated from Jewish owners throughout the ME, amounts to something like four times the size of the State of Israel.... an interesting comparison.

The modern state of Israel has very little to do with this thread.
So far, we should be on events in the fourth century.

 

[SAYIT]

"By "beggared and ejected" do you mean forcibly stripped of their worldly possessions and shown the door? "

Pretty much - I think they got to take a suitcase, but then that'd have ben subject to inspection.... NO compensation for property, including LAND OWNED.

The area of acreage so confiscated from Jewish owners throughout the ME, amounts to something like four times the size of the State of Israel.... an interesting comparison.

The modern state of Israel has very little to do with this thread.
So far, we should be on events in the fourth century.

I believe the thrust of Marg's post was the unceremonious beggaring and ejection of Iraq's 2600 year old Jewish community, not the establishment of modern Israel.
That said I also believe many thoughtful posts from many I thought disinterested in or incapable of such have made their way onto this thread. Nice work, Indo.

 

[ima]

True, anti-semitism does not equal hate.

It's really more of a dislike of the jews and not wanting to associate with them.........

But muslims HATE Jews and want to kill them all, I gave you the verses in a previous post. Not just don't like them and don't want to associate with them, that's more how infidels feel towards muslims.

The Jews of Babylon

The oldest and most stable of Jewish communities was saved from the Christians by Muslims sweeping through the Middle East.

Sorry, what was that about Muslims hating Jews?

It says so in the koran, despite a few muslims helping some Jews the odd time. So far, that's once.

 

[MHunterB]

"By "beggared and ejected" do you mean forcibly stripped of their worldly possessions and shown the door? "

Pretty much - I think they got to take a suitcase, but then that'd have ben subject to inspection.... NO compensation for property, including LAND OWNED.

The area of acreage so confiscated from Jewish owners throughout the ME, amounts to something like four times the size of the State of Israel.... an interesting comparison.

The modern state of Israel has very little to do with this thread.
So far, we should be on events in the fourth century.

I was just using the size of Israel for a comparison, to indicate the amount of acreage 'nationalized' out from under its legal owners of record when their citizenship was stripped from them. I suppose I could have compared it to the size of Rhode Island....or New Jersey, for that matter.

 

[ima]

In Islam’s oral tradition, it is believed that killing one Jew is equal to the killing of fifty non-Jewish unbelievers. Every muslim traditionally learns from the mullahs and seniors—that they must hate Jews more than any other infidels. All muslims (good or bad) do believe that Jews are the worst enemy of Muslims and they are advised to take cautions when dealing with Jews.

 

[ima]

The Muslim hatred of Jews pre-dates the existence of the modern state of Israel by some 1400 years and is based on verses in the Qur’an and in the hadiths. From earliest childhood on, Muslim youngsters are brainwashed to believe that Jews are the worst enemy of Allah, with Christians, polytheists, and Hindus coming next. The rationale for this hatred is that everyone must accept Islam, since Muslims believe that it is superior to all other religions and Islam is the only true religion on Earth.

 

[MHunterB]

I don't know about any of that, Ima - what I do know is that each of us is responsible for our won interpetations of Scripture in both Islam and Judaism.

I am less certain about Christian doctrine on this matter. I do know that Christians claim to have the Holy Spirit indwelling and guiding them in their understanding of Scripture. So my UNEDUCATED GUESS is that someone who is certain without soul-searching and looking for any less hateful interpretation of Christian Scripture than to damn all 'non-believers' en masse, is actually committing the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the HS - by assuming the HS guides one to condemn whole segments of GOD's Children for no overt wrong but only for not being 'Christian'.

I have discussed this idea with several pastors and priests, and they have not rejected it out-of-hand, for all that it comes from a non-Christian. Some of them have taken it up to their bishops for consultation.....

 

[PaulS1950]

So Muslims believe that theirs is the only true religion - just like Christians , so what.
It doesn't mean that all Christians or all Muslims are going to kill people just because they are a different faith. Throughout history Christians have killed more people in the name of God than any other religion but you can't blame all Chistians for the acts perpetrated by the acts of those radical few anymore than you can blame all Muslims for the acts of those few radicals that we call terrorists today.

There are also many sects of Christianity just as there are many sects of Islam. Some tend to be more radical than others and a few tend to spawn more radicals than others.

This discussion has not been about Jewish history nor has it posed and serious questions. It has been a ranting editorial about the lack of acceptance of the differences between members of different faiths and ideologies proposed by fanactics.

Each of us has our own path to whatever we see as the end of life on earth and we should try to have the grace to allow others the path which guides them the best. If someone breaks the laws by which we live then they should be punished according to the law of the land. Leave religion to govern the soul and let governments manage the physical world with their laws.

 

[ima]

So Muslims believe that theirs is the only true religion - just like Christians , so what.
It doesn't mean that all Christians or all Muslims are going to kill people just because they are a different faith. Throughout history Christians have killed more people in the name of God than any other religion but you can't blame all Chistians for the acts perpetrated by the acts of those radical few anymore than you can blame all Muslims for the acts of those few radicals that we call terrorists today.

There are also many sects of Christianity just as there are many sects of Islam. Some tend to be more radical than others and a few tend to spawn more radicals than others.

This discussion has not been about Jewish history nor has it posed and serious questions. It has been a ranting editorial about the lack of acceptance of the differences between members of different faiths and ideologies proposed by fanactics.

Each of us has our own path to whatever we see as the end of life on earth and we should try to have the grace to allow others the path which guides them the best. If someone breaks the laws by which we live then they should be punished according to the law of the land. Leave religion to govern the soul and let governments manage the physical world with their laws.

You're missing the point. You can't be a muslim if you don't want infidels killed and if you don't hate Jews. It says so in the koran. You can't pick and choose in Islam.

 

[MHunterB]

Ima, ALL of religion is human interpretation of Scriptures, of writings by those who studied the Scripture before us and were considered wise in their day - it's ALL 'as understood by' a group of imperfect human beings.

While Christians may claim the GUIDANCE of the HS in such matters - it's unclear that humans always listen for that still small voice. One still has to listen to that guide.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Ima, ALL of religion is human interpretation of Scriptures, of writings by those who studied the Scripture before us and were considered wise in their day - it's ALL 'as understood by' a group of imperfect human beings.

While Christians may claim the GUIDANCE of the HS in such matters - it's unclear that humans always listen for that still small voice. One still has to listen to that guide.

Interestingly enough, anyone who meditates (Buddhists, Taoists, etc.) actively seeks out that still small voice.

Since God loves us all, wouldn't He allow people to come to Him in the way they could understand Him best?

Christianity doesn't seem to be seeking out that small voice, but rather more interested in reinforcing the dogma that the preacher puts out.

 

[Indofred]

But muslims HATE Jews and want to kill them all, I gave you the verses in a previous post. Not just don't like them and don't want to associate with them, that's more how infidels feel towards muslims.

The Jews of Babylon

Sorry, what was that about Muslims hating Jews?

It says so in the koran, despite a few muslims helping some Jews the odd time. So far, that's once.

But you said, Muslims hate Jews.
Now you admit, at least some do not.

End of a stereotype?