A serious question about Jewish history

[MHunterB]

Ima, ALL of religion is human interpretation of Scriptures, of writings by those who studied the Scripture before us and were considered wise in their day - it's ALL 'as understood by' a group of imperfect human beings.

While Christians may claim the GUIDANCE of the HS in such matters - it's unclear that humans always listen for that still small voice. One still has to listen to that guide.

Interestingly enough, anyone who meditates (Buddhists, Taoists, etc.) actively seeks out that still small voice.

Since God loves us all, wouldn't He allow people to come to Him in the way they could understand Him best?

Christianity doesn't seem to be seeking out that small voice, but rather more interested in reinforcing the dogma that the preacher puts out.

Friends (aka 'Quakers') are Christians, and they meditate..... So do a lot of people in every religious tradition, particularly the mystics of each faith.

My husband has remarked that the reason he doesn't like being angry is that that is the one emotion which will block him from hearing that voice, and *that* really leaves him uneasy and unable to focus on anything.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Ima, ALL of religion is human interpretation of Scriptures, of writings by those who studied the Scripture before us and were considered wise in their day - it's ALL 'as understood by' a group of imperfect human beings.

While Christians may claim the GUIDANCE of the HS in such matters - it's unclear that humans always listen for that still small voice. One still has to listen to that guide.

Interestingly enough, anyone who meditates (Buddhists, Taoists, etc.) actively seeks out that still small voice.

Since God loves us all, wouldn't He allow people to come to Him in the way they could understand Him best?

Christianity doesn't seem to be seeking out that small voice, but rather more interested in reinforcing the dogma that the preacher puts out.

Friends (aka 'Quakers') are Christians, and they meditate..... So do a lot of people in every religious tradition, particularly the mystics of each faith.

My husband has remarked that the reason he doesn't like being angry is that that is the one emotion which will block him from hearing that voice, and *that* really leaves him uneasy and unable to focus on anything.

Yes, there are certain rare instances where those of a Christian belief sect will meditate, but you've gotta admit.................it's kinda rare, and if you look, most of the sects of Christianity are more interested in reinforcing their dogma than they are in listening to that small voice, because it may challenge their dogma.

And yeah.............you're right..................anger tends to drown that small voice out, but sitting quietly in a nice place (backyard, by a lake, etc.) tends to turn up the volume for that small voice.

 

[Indofred]

From earliest childhood on, Muslim youngsters are brainwashed to believe that Jews are the worst enemy of Allah, with Christians, polytheists, and Hindus coming next.

This is not true - I wonder if you've been taught to believe that since your early childhood.

Anyway, back to the point of the thread, understanding history.
I firmly believe, if you understand the past, you'll know a lot more about the present.

The first couple of bits of research have shown it was only extremism that caused problems and was nothing to do with Jews as such, just that an opposing religious belief group knew exactly how right they were and had the muscle to back up what they decided was right.

That, even looking at just two events, has pretty much destroyed the notion, all Jews were attacked for what they did, more for what they believed.
So far, nothing to do with the commonly used stereotypes of Jews being bankers, money lenders and so on, anything to do with Jewish ghettos and no mention of Jews claiming to be superior in any way.
Time yet for these things to be a factor in later events but nothing to do with anything so far.
So much for the far right websites that use the same list as in my OP to prove how nasty Jews are. They've clearly never bothered to look at what they post.

 

[Indofred]

I've just found something as interesting as it is off topic.
Israel has a scouting movement, as does Iran.

Common ground based on a Christian set up movement?

Oh, hell, there may even be a chance of friendships building up between Christians, Jews and Muslims.
Better ban them so we can get on with hating each other.



That or encourage them in the hope, future generations don't have to hate each other and die for nothing.

 

[MHunterB]

Fred, if you go back to the original ghetto - 12th C Venice - it was NOT at all voluntary on the part of the Jews.

They were restricted to that area, walled in and LOCKED in at night, by the 'civil' authorities.

 

[MHunterB]

I've just found something as interesting as it is off topic.
Israel has a scouting movement, as does Iran.

Common ground based on a Christian set up movement?

Oh, hell, there may even be a chance of friendships building up between Christians, Jews and Muslims.
Better ban them so we can get on with hating each other.



That or encourage them in the hope, future generations don't have to hate each other and die for nothing.

A Pair of Boy Scouts

Stranger things have happened : )) This is a true story.

 

[SAYIT]

Fred, if you go back to the original ghetto - 12th C Venice - it was NOT at all voluntary on the part of the Jews.

They were restricted to that area, walled in and LOCKED in at night, by the 'civil' authorities.

Rome's Ghetto was ordered by the Pope:

The Roman Ghetto was established as a result of Papal bull Cum nimis absurdum, promulgated by Pope Paul IV on 14 July 1555. The bull also required the Jews of Rome, which had existed as a community since before Christian times and which numbered about 2,000 at the time, to live in the ghetto. The ghetto was a walled quarter with three gates that were locked at night. The wall was built under the direction of the architect Giovanni Sallustio Peruzzi. The money for its construction – 300 scudi – had to be paid by the Jewish community. The area of Rome chosen for the ghetto was the most undesirable quarter of the city, subject to constant flooding by the Tiber River. At the time of its founding, the four-block area was expected to contain roughly 1,000 inhabitants.
The bull also revoked all the rights of the Jewish community and imposed on Jews a variety of new restrictions such as prohibition on property ownership and practising medicine on Christians and compulsory Catholic sermons on the Jewish shabbat.

Roman Ghetto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Indofred]

Fred, if you go back to the original ghetto - 12th C Venice - it was NOT at all voluntary on the part of the Jews.

They were restricted to that area, walled in and LOCKED in at night, by the 'civil' authorities.

That is well worth a bit of exploration.
I won't, as usual, accept a non validated post as fact but it fits in perfectly with the point of the thread so has to be worth a closer look.

 

[Indofred]

I've just found something as interesting as it is off topic.
Israel has a scouting movement, as does Iran.

Common ground based on a Christian set up movement?

Oh, hell, there may even be a chance of friendships building up between Christians, Jews and Muslims.
Better ban them so we can get on with hating each other.



That or encourage them in the hope, future generations don't have to hate each other and die for nothing.

A Pair of Boy Scouts

Stranger things have happened : )) This is a true story.

Quality post.

They're Americans just like us!

There you go. Understand the people are people, not the enemy.

I've managed to work out, Jews are people. I wonder if sunni can do the same and ima can understand Muslims are people as well.

 

[Indofred]

Fred, if you go back to the original ghetto - 12th C Venice - it was NOT at all voluntary on the part of the Jews.

They were restricted to that area, walled in and LOCKED in at night, by the 'civil' authorities.

Rome's Ghetto was ordered by the Pope:

The Roman Ghetto was established as a result of Papal bull Cum nimis absurdum, promulgated by Pope Paul IV on 14 July 1555. The bull also required the Jews of Rome, which had existed as a community since before Christian times and which numbered about 2,000 at the time, to live in the ghetto. The ghetto was a walled quarter with three gates that were locked at night. The wall was built under the direction of the architect Giovanni Sallustio Peruzzi. The money for its construction – 300 scudi – had to be paid by the Jewish community. The area of Rome chosen for the ghetto was the most undesirable quarter of the city, subject to constant flooding by the Tiber River. At the time of its founding, the four-block area was expected to contain roughly 1,000 inhabitants.
The bull also revoked all the rights of the Jewish community and imposed on Jews a variety of new restrictions such as prohibition on property ownership and practising medicine on Christians and compulsory Catholic sermons on the Jewish shabbat.

Roman Ghetto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm still on the 4th century church against Jews but that could well be the basis of 16th century problems.
Working on it.

 

[Indofred]

357 C.E. Italy Property Confiscation

Bugger.

I've just written a long post with a pile of links to show this one to be a selectively true listing but lost it with a wrong click of the mouse.

Seems the Roman empire was a massive slave trader as a nationalised business and the Jews were a big competitor.
Constantine II issued laws that forbade Jews from owning pretty much any slave unless that slave was also Jewish.
That gave the Romans a massive trading advantage as they could own anyone.
Also, slaved forcibly circumcised were freed and the Jewish slave owner, killed.
No person may convert to become a Jew without the state taking all his property as was the case with any non Jew who married a Jew.

The listing, I believe, was designed to suggest real estate was taken from Jews - this doesn't seem to be the case with the exceptions listed above.
So, it wasn't a general thing but a very selective one.

Of course, that's hardly justification, but at least I have a far better idea than I did two days ago.
Constantine II was clearly anti Jewish but I suspect he was as much pro cash and was very probably profiting from the slave trade.

 

[Indofred]

Next up

379 C.E. Milan Synagogue Burning

 

[Indofred]

379 seems to be noted only on copies of the list in my OP.
This appears to be another mistake but only in date.

What impact did the Holocaust have during World War 2

379 A.D.
Vicious writing by St. John Chrysostom and St. Ambrose in Milan who said: "The Jews are the most worthless of all men. They are lecherous, greedy, rapacious. They are perfidious murderers of Christ. They worship the Devil. Their religion is a sickness. The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing God there is no expiation possible, no indulgence or pardon. Christians may never cease vengeance, and the Jew must live in servitude forever. God always hated the Jews. It is essential that all Christians hate them." ... St. Ambrose, Bishop of the Church offered to burn the synagogue himself.

As a rule, I'm usually not too keen on using wiki but this is backed up in numerous sites, mostly Jewish but also Christian.

Dates seem to be in dispute but reputable sites all seem to agree on the details.

Some bishop dude, thought he'd be doing God's work and gain a seat at God's right hand if he burned a few Jews out of their place of worship.
Emperor Theodosius told the silly bugger who'd burnt it down to get a new one built at their own expense but a somewhat wild, and probably power hungry idiot known as Ambrose of Milan, called the emperor, a Jew, and told the bishop not to bother.
This event is the first one where I've noticed Jews mentioned as bankers and money lenders but NOT as part of this event, more in other countries in the same time period.

This seems to be another case of Christian extremists getting their own back for the nasty Jews killing the bloke who they'd decided was the son of God just a few years earlier at the first council of Nicaea.
That event, for those who don't know, was the one where Jesus was defined as 'God the son', thus making Jews really nasty.
Those who disagreed with this ruling, notably Arius, had their books burnt and were generally not invited to parties.
His death could also be considered a little odd.
He died after a massive case of the runs, so bad, bits of his body came out with the poo.
It may just have been a massive infection or growth of some sort but there was speculation of poisoning.
No one will ever know.

Next up
415 C.E. Alexandria Expulsion

 

[ima]

379 seems to be noted only on copies of the list in my OP.
This appears to be another mistake but only in date.

What impact did the Holocaust have during World War 2

379 A.D.
Vicious writing by St. John Chrysostom and St. Ambrose in Milan who said: "The Jews are the most worthless of all men. They are lecherous, greedy, rapacious. They are perfidious murderers of Christ. They worship the Devil. Their religion is a sickness. The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing God there is no expiation possible, no indulgence or pardon. Christians may never cease vengeance, and the Jew must live in servitude forever. God always hated the Jews. It is essential that all Christians hate them." ... St. Ambrose, Bishop of the Church offered to burn the synagogue himself.

As a rule, I'm usually not too keen on using wiki but this is backed up in numerous sites, mostly Jewish but also Christian.

Dates seem to be in dispute but reputable sites all seem to agree on the details.

Some bishop dude, thought he'd be doing God's work and gain a seat at God's right hand if he burned a few Jews out of their place of worship.
Emperor Theodosius told the silly bugger who'd burnt it down to get a new one built at their own expense but a somewhat wild, and probably power hungry idiot known as Ambrose of Milan, called the emperor, a Jew, and told the bishop not to bother.
This event is the first one where I've noticed Jews mentioned as bankers and money lenders but NOT as part of this event, more in other countries in the same time period.

This seems to be another case of Christian extremists getting their own back for the nasty Jews killing the bloke who they'd decided was the son of God just a few years earlier at the first council of Nicaea.
That event, for those who don't know, was the one where Jesus was defined as 'God the son', thus making Jews really nasty.
Those who disagreed with this ruling, notably Arius, had their books burnt and were generally not invited to parties.
His death could also be considered a little odd.
He died after a massive case of the runs, so bad, bits of his body came out with the poo.
It may just have been a massive infection or growth of some sort but there was speculation of poisoning.
No one will ever know.

Next up
415 C.E. Alexandria Expulsion

A call by the supreme Islamic leader of Iran for Moslems to rise up and kill Jews and annihilate the Jewish state of Israel and be able to do that, as they say, in nine minutes is a page right out of Bible prophecy for the last days.

Iran?s supreme Islamic leader says Muslims must kill Jews and annihilate Israel and they can do that in just nine minutes « vineoflife.net

 

[Sunni Man]

A call by the supreme Islamic leader of Iran for Moslems to rise up and kill Jews and annihilate the Jewish state of Israel and be able to do that, as they say, in nine minutes is a page right out of Bible prophecy for the last days.

Iran?s supreme Islamic leader says Muslims must kill Jews and annihilate Israel and they can do that in just nine minutes « vineoflife.net

^^^^

 

[Indofred]

I'm trying to understand the problems faced by Jews regarding items on the list up to Nazi Germany.


I want well thought out, intelligent posts (with links), regarding items on the list in my OP, not blind hate crap.
This is about the early history of the Jews and what has happened to them.
It stuck me, the list was reposted everywhere but no one seems to have bothered to look closely at it.


415 C.E. Alexandria Expulsion

Give it a go. Searching is taking about two days per event - Are you able to give it a try?

 

[Indofred]

Oddly enough, silly hate seems to be the cause of all events so far, not anything the Jews of the times actually did.
That and business rivals in the Roman slave trade where one end of the fight had a ruddy great big army to make sure he won the day.
The stereotypes of money lending and so on have not really shown up regarding any item on the list.

The thing of greatest interest is that lack of stereotypical behaviour we normally hear spewed out against Jews.
As I mentioned, I'm only up to the fifth century so plenty of time for other factors to come into play.

My personal understanding of that section of history is improving by the day.

 

[ima]

Sure. No problem.

Why Middle East Muslims are taught to hate Jews:

Egypt’s newly elected president, Mohamed Morsi, was caught on tape about three years ago urging his followers to “nurse our children and our grandchildren on hatred” for Jews and Zionists. Not long after, the then-leader of the Muslim Brotherhood described Zionists as “bloodsuckers who attack the Palestinians,” “warmongers,” and “descendants of apes and pigs.”
Why Middle East Muslims are taught to hate Jews - CSMonitor.com

 

[HUGGY]

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SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
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This is NOT a thread about Israel/Palestine nor a hate thread of any sort.
It isn't pro Muslim, anti Christian or anti Jewish.
I don't want rubbish about the Palestine/Israel conflict or any modern arguments of any type.

I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.

Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism

This link is to a Jewish site that lists various horrors that have been done to Jews over the last couple of thousand years.
They've been kicked out, enslaved, massacred, mutilated, burnt alive, forced to convert to Christianity and generally abused where ever they've settled.

All said and done, they've been given a pretty crap time of it.
So, my question is, what caused so much hate in all these places?

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Once again - SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
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Jews believe that they are "Chosen" by god. They believe that this choosing makes them special and above others in worth as human beings. Of course this belief is nonsense as there is no god in the first place. People that believe they are better than others are irritating at the least and dangerous at worst. Jews are dangerous. They are dangerous to all people including thier own kind. If the wealthy Jews in Europe had invested in the defense of thier own communities when NAZISM got started then Hitler would have been a dead man long before he got the ball rolling. BUT that's not how Jews operate. They were selfish individually. That makes them disgusting in many peoples eyes. They think because they see themselves as special and more deserving of consideration than other peoples they use this failed ideology to suck resources from good countries like the USA and therefor are leaches on society and humankind as a whole. The world would not be perfect without Jews...but it would be better. I know that is a harsh viewpoint. Bad people need punished. I didn't make them assholes. AND I certainly won't make excuses for them being assholes.

 

[ima]

It's Fred's thread, and if he wants to stick with the chronological order, why don't you just be patient and wait 'til he gets to you?

Most of today's anti-semitism comes from muslims. Deal with it.

That may or may not be true. Start a thread to explore it but this is about Jewish problems pre Nazi Germany and my wish to understand it.
I'm rather hoping others can share in my education.
I have to be honest; I wasn't expecting to find what I have and that's made me all the more interested to find out what other things I'm wrong about.
Please stop the trolling as I don't want this thread closed.
However, when I'm on the computer later, I'll copy my posts regarding each event so I don't lose them if the hate people troll the thread into the dustbin.

When you're finished, you should write a book: Justifications of today's muslim rabid anti-semitism.