Anarchists and libertarians - Please click here

[bripat9643]

That's still coercion, dumbass. What if you tell the court to fuck off?

Then at least one of us would have had the balls to follow his convictions.

You mean you're an imbecile. You have no convictions other than that you're entitled to take money from others to use for your purposes.

Given that I probably pay more in taxes than you earn it isn't very likely I am taking anything from anyone I did not earn myself.

If you vote for tax increases or the politicians who support them, you are taking money from other people.

Your logic is as flawed as you are emotional.

Nope. You use government to steal from other people.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

What do you think anarchy is? You just described the inevitable result of anarchy

Anarchy is not devoid of society. Society can exist without government.
Society=/=Government

You need to get those straight in your head.

 

[TNHarley]

And we put rules and authority in place to enforce the idea. Anarchy would remove those and rely on the individual to do the right thing.

If we both own a farm and I want more, under anarchy there is no good reason for me to to kill you if I can and take your farm.

Likewise, there is no good reason for me to not kill you and take your farm.

Let the violence begin.

Do you see the mutual need to reach and keep agreements?

Do you think if authority got removed, "agreements" like that would still exist?

 

[TNHarley]

IDK it seems like one would fear the govt more than their neighbor.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

And we put rules and authority in place to enforce the idea. Anarchy would remove those and rely on the individual to do the right thing.

If we both own a farm and I want more, under anarchy there is no good reason for me to to kill you if I can and take your farm.

Likewise, there is no good reason for me to not kill you and take your farm.

Let the violence begin.

Do you see the mutual need to reach and keep agreements?

I do see such a need, that is why I do not support anarchy. Anarchy has one end, disorder.


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[Harpy Eagle]

I love this thread.
Thanks Brian Blackwell

It has been fun, even got me to listen to a audio book that is pro-anarchy to get a more in-depth view


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[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

I do see such a need, that is why I do not support anarchy. Anarchy has one end, disorder.

If I agree to not try and kill you if you don't fuck with my land, and you agree to do the same, do we need government? The threat of violence resuming should be good enough, right?

 

[Harpy Eagle]

I do see such a need, that is why I do not support anarchy. Anarchy has one end, disorder.

If I agree to not try and kill you if you don't fuck with my land, and you agree to do the same, do we need government? The threat of violence resuming should be good enough, right?

Until such time as I look over and see that you have two hired guns and I have ten so I say “fuck it, why not” and I take you out and now my farm is twice as big so it is a win for me. And you are dead so I have nothing to fear.


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[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Until such time as I look over and see that you have two hired guns and I have ten so I say “fuck it, why not” and I take you out and now my farm is twice as big so it is a win for me. And you are dead so I have nothing to fear.

Or, I see your 10 and I hire 20.

Or, my other neighbor sees what is happening to my farm. He realizes that it could also happen to him. He tells the other neighbors and they bring 50 men and kick the fucking shit out of you, execute you, and divide up your farm.

Why compel people to suppress that evil desire? Why not let it loose? Let's let the violence flow, because fuckers who want to take from others need to die and there are more of us who want peace.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

What do you think anarchy is? You just described the inevitable result of anarchy

Anarchy is not devoid of society. Society can exist without government.
Society=/=Government

You need to get those straight in your head.

Society cannot exist with out rules and authority. If all you are doing as an anarchist is moving who holds the power and authority, why bother?

In the end anarchy is devoid of order, as true anarchy is against authority in all forms. Society cannot survive without order.


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[Harpy Eagle]

Until such time as I look over and see that you have two hired guns and I have ten so I say “fuck it, why not” and I take you out and now my farm is twice as big so it is a win for me. And you are dead so I have nothing to fear.

Why compel people to suppress that evil desire? Why not let it loose? Let's let the violence flow, because fuckers who want to take from others need to die and there are more of us who want peace.

And that is what anarchy does, it is in the end just the survival of the strongest.

If you want to know what anarchy leads to, go read their cookbook.

There might be more that want peace, but history shows that most are not willing to stand up for it.


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[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

If all you are doing as an anarchist is moving who holds the power and authority, why bother?

Because who holds power and authority now has proved to exist for no other purpose but to gain more power and authority, and do just exactly what you described in the farm scenario. What's the difference?


I own a farm next to your farm. My farm produces more crops. Yours does not have enough to feed you all winter. You get a group of armed thugs to take, by threat of violence, a portion of my crops to support you through the winter. That is government.

 

[TNHarley]

That is government.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

If all you are doing as an anarchist is moving who holds the power and authority, why bother?

Because who holds power and authority now has proved to exist for no other purpose but to gain more power and authority, and do just exactly what you described in the farm scenario. What's the difference?


I own a farm next to your farm. My farm produces more crops. Yours does not have enough to feed you all winter. You get a group of armed thugs to take, by threat of violence, a portion of my crops to support you through the winter. That is government.

Whatever you call the new thing you give power and authority to, the same thing will happen because that is the nature of mankind.

You can throw the baby out with the bath water or you can choose to use the system we were given to reign in the power of the government. Remember, in this country at least we have the government we vote for.


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[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

There might be more that want peace, but history shows that most are not willing to stand up for it.

So, they hire others to do so, and at first those others are just there to protect. Then, they need to be fed so they can protect, so now they go and demand from those who are willing to stand up and fight. Then, the weak-ass chicken shits suddenly realize that they have power over the independent. Now they start demanding more from the others.

So, the weak use their bully, the government, to take EVEN MORE from the independent. The weak have now become the hostile and the independent are suppressed by the instrument of the weak--GOVERNMENT.

Every scenario ends in somebody taking from someone else.

I prefer the weak to shut the fuck up and pray I remain peaceful.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Whatever you call the new thing you give power and authority to, the same thing will happen because that is the nature of mankind.

You can throw the baby out with the bath water or you can choose to use the system we were given to reign in the power of the government. Remember, in this country at least we have the government we vote for.

That's the only scenario that is likely to happen, so I agree. I cannot imagine a scenario where government disappears. It just won't happen because most humans need to fucking die.

 

[Foxfyre]

"Social Contract" is a truce. It is an agreement to not kill each other and let each other pursue food and sex without violent interference.

Anything above and beyond that understood agreement is not contractual. It is compulsory from birth.

It is also agreement to share certain services--infrastructure, fire protection, law enforcement, education, water/sewer/electric supply, etc. etc. etc.--rather than each person having to provide that for himself/herself. Every rural electric coop, homeowner's association, or village that incorporates for mutual benefit is exercising social contract. As were the Founders who drafted, signed, and ratified the U.S. Constitution without which there would be no USA as we know it.

 

[Some Guy]

Reading all this lends credence to my general thought that people are pretty good in isolation, perhaps mostly because they need to worry about their own survival. As soon as they get together in groups, a lot of bad shit can and does happen almost purely in the name of good intentions.

If anyone knows who Bo Burnham is, allow me to quote a part at the end of his song "Love Is." Love is... being the owner of a company that makes rape whistles. And even though you started the company with good intentions trying to reduce the rate of rape, now you don't want to reduce it all because if the rape rate declines you'll see an equal decline in whistle sales.

It's easy for a group of people to convince themselves that (using the example above) eliminating that one guy and taking his farm over there is a good thing, cause more people would benefit than would suffer cause we'd spread the wealth of that farm around, and that guy is a dick anyway. So yea, there's no good reason not to do it. Meanwhile, you've completely ignored the fact that maybe he's not so bad, you just let your greed get in the way of objectively evaluating him. And the reason you want his farm is because he's smart enough to figure out a way to get a better yield. So sure, kill him, but no one is left that understands how he got that higher yield, and now that you've killed one guy, it's not big leap to kill another, and another and another, again, all in the name of good intentions. That's authority for you.

To Gator's point though: just like socialism, it just takes one asshole to fuck it up. That system relies on everyone thinking the same way, holding their envy in check, holding their aggression or gluttony in check. We all would like to think that people will make the smart, altruistic decisions but they won't, not all of them anyway, not all the time. That's probably why the founders saw government as a necessary evil.

 

[Oddball]

Oh please!! You just trying to explain it away while clinging to your odd ideas. Here is more

Putting Out Fires for a Fee

Firefighters in South Fulton, Tenn., have let two homes burn to the ground over the past two years since the city commission started enforcing a rule that the department serve only subscribers who pay the $75 annual fee. The city commission is expected to vote Thursday whether to amend that policy to allow the fire department to put out all blazes and then bill nonsubscribers $3,500 for the service. Paying members wouldn't be billed.

My old ideas?!?...You're the one here trying to rationalize a flawed model that has been foisted upon the populace since the industrial revolution....Not very "progressive" of you at all.

 

[Oddball]

"Social Contract" is a truce. It is an agreement to not kill each other and let each other pursue food and sex without violent interference.

Anything above and beyond that understood agreement is not contractual. It is compulsory from birth.

The "social contract" is a myth...It's alleged contents are completely under the subjective whims of whoever decides to describe it....The word "contract" presumes specifically delineated duties and obligations of all who assent to it...Your "contract" is nothing of the sort.