Are cells conscious?

[ding]

You keep beating your head against a brick wall.

We're not talking about rocks, we're talking about cells.

No one cares whether rocks respire.

But lots of people care whether cells are smart.

Cells have awareness. We know this because they respond to their surroundings. That doesn't make them conscious or self aware. You think everything is alive though. You think everything is conscious. That just isn't the case and there's no evidence for that case.

It seems to me you are trying to use cells as a trojan horse so to speak.

 

[scruffy]

Cells have awareness. We know this because they respond to their surroundings. That doesn't make them conscious or self aware. You think everything is alive though. You think everything is conscious. That just isn't the case and there's no evidence for that case.

It seems to me you are trying to use cells as a trojan horse so to speak.

I'm a scientist. I speak science. I deal in EVIDENCE, not old wives' tales and antiquated beliefs.

The EVIDENCE says that life comes from the fundamental symmetries of nature. So yes, everything is alive. Even empty space.

Your definition of life is simply INCORRECT.

Get it now?

 

[scruffy]

Let us now return to topic.

The next issue is the length of the loop, which means the time scale of the delays associated with computational processes.

The aforementioned scenario illustrates the construction of one loop with one time scale. But in real life there are many loops with many different time scales. How does the cell organize them?

The simple answer is, a common point of reference - which is "now". When multiple time scales align to a common reference, the result is a Hawaiian earring, like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_earrin

If you draw a line straight out horizontally from the common point of reference, you touch all the points at infinity from the various compactified time scales. Such a line has physical significance (I'll show you why in a moment). For now, consider it as a "dimension". It is a synthetic dimension not present in "real" time. It indicates the length of the underlying loop - the farther off to the right we go, the longer the loop.

You'll notice right away that this structure is self similar, it is "fractal" in nature, and itd fractal dimension can be calculated using the Mandelbrot equation. More importantly though the Hawaiian earring space has a topology. (Google is your friend). If you feel ready to accelerate, this is essential background:

https://www.maths.ed.ac.uk/~v1ranick/papers/davenema.pdf

Why am I bringing this to your attention?

Because of this:

Topological quantum computer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And this

Fusion of anyons - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Turns out, the "space" in question is both Abelian and non-Abelian. In one view, it is a simple product of R x N (n being natural numbers). But when you try to do math this way, you discover that multiplication is discontinuous. So, you have to use a slightly more sophisticated model, which is a sigma-product, and the good news is this approach dovetails perfectly with stochastic rings. (Which is to say, rings that "wobble' because of the random aspect of biological delays).

Done this way, the system has the same computational braiding as Kitaev's anyons, but without explicitly invoking the quantum theory. It is "purely" topological.

What happens here, is there is a map between two different constructions. In one, the rings are homeomorphic to a union of countably many open intervals. (That's how we built them in the first place). But in the other, they're a cross product between a continuous space R and a discrete space N - and N means "quantized". The PDF shows how you can embed both at the same time. And the (second) Wiki link shows that these are formally analogous to a quantum Hilbert space.

So what we have here, is a topological quantum computer, without having to invoke any explicit underlying quantum processes. We are basically "synthesizing" quantum behavior, from a set of stochastic delays.

This is a remarkable situation, and so far it has only been described in the most rudimentary way (using group theory as it relates to algebraic topology). Needless to say, it has potentially vast implications for spacetime itself, because so far the Copenhagen interpretation emphasizes the quantum theory is "only a description" and not mechanistic. Here though, we have a mechanism, and it's experimentally and mathematically accessible.

Quite obviously, to get useful behavior out of such a system you have to have "enough" rings. But even if you don't have enough (which means you have glaring discontinuities), the structure can still be embedded into a computational manifold. (You'll note the reference to the Ising model in the Wiki - an Ising with a useful Hamiltonian can be built from as little as 4 neurons). In the vast neural network of the human brain there are 100's of billions of loops, which is why our experience is approximately smooth. In smaller networks the braiding is discontinuous, jumpy. (Which means, it stutters - there are only "moments" of clarity).

In a single cell, there could be as many as tens of thousands of loops. In a human cell there maybe 30,000 genes, each with its own set of delays. Thus a single cell could be pretty darn smart.

 

[ding]

I'm a scientist. I speak science. I deal in EVIDENCE, not old wives' tales and antiquated beliefs.

The EVIDENCE says that life comes from the fundamental symmetries of nature. So yes, everything is alive. Even empty space.

Your definition of life is simply INCORRECT.

Get it now?

It's not my definition. It's everyone's definition. Your definition is everything is alive.

 

[scruffy]

Okay - so finally, here is the payoff.

If you've been wondering why I'm showing you all this....

The short answer is : PHASE CODING.

So far, we have one excellent example of this in human beings, in the hippocampus of the human brain - where we find the phase encoded "place cells". Here are some references (pay attention to the pics):

Theta-phase dependent neuronal coding during sequence learning in human single neurons - Nature Communications

Previous work has shown that in rodents phase precession – the phase of action potentials relative to the theta oscillation – is associated with the representation of sequential locations. Here the authors demonstrate that phase precession also occurs in the human hippocampus using single neuron...

www.nature.com

And hey, "it may be a more general strategy". Well duh.

The theta/gamma discrete phase code occuring during the hippocampal phase precession may be a more general brain coding scheme - PubMed

In the hippocampus, oscillations in the theta and gamma frequency range occur together and interact in several ways, indicating that they are part of a common functional system. It is argued that these oscillations form a coding scheme that is used in the hippocampus to organize the readout from...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Here is some math:

Efficient phase coding in hippocampal place cells

Neural codes have been postulated to build efficient representations of the external world. The hippocampus, an encoding system, employs neuronal firing rates and spike phases to encode external space. Although the biophysical origin of such codes is ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So now, earlier I posed the question of how we relate which cause to which effect. Now that you've seen the Hawaiian earring, you should be able to make a pretty good guess. Because "which cause" is encoded in the synthetic dimension we talked about. It is simply the X coordinate in the earring pic.

This information can be phase encoded into the firing pattern of a SINGLE NEURON. And in a complex system with a lot of detail, all you need is more neurons. This way, the "location" of a nerve impulse is mapped to one of the cycles in the earring. It literally becomes as simple as a retina. You have causes on the X axis, and the timing of effects on Y.

Such a system can SELF ORGANIZE in exactly the same way the visual system does. Strict timing is not necessary - the system will learn for itself (the relationship between causes and effects). This is where the Hamiltonian comes in, and why I spent time showing you the Ising model. It's physics, nothing more. Statistical mechanics. The same Boltzmann distribution you find in a cloud of gas.

This is how single cells "adapt" to their environment. Where we see this especially, is in the immune system, and the brain. Nobel laureate Gerald Edelman was the first to make the connection. He pointed out, that the mechanisms are one and the same. (And that was long before biologists knew anything about Peano spaces).

One of the key elements of proof, is that we do in fact see sequences being played BACKWARDS in the hippocampus - a sure sign that the cyclic one point compactification is occurring.

Reverse replay of behavioural sequences in hippocampal place cells during the awake state - Nature

During sleep, neurons in the rat hippocampus are known to replay sequences of activity that took place when the rat was awake. A new study, in rats running around a track, eating and grooming, shows that replay also occurs repeatedly during the awake state, and that behavioural sequences are...

www.nature.com

One of the key researchers in this field is Michael Hasselmo at Boston University.

Hippocampal mechanisms for the context-dependent retrieval of episodes - PubMed

Behaviors ranging from delivering newspapers to waiting tables depend on remembering previous episodes to avoid incorrect repetition. Physiologically, this requires mechanisms for long-term storage and selective retrieval of episodes based on the time of occurrence, despite variable intervals...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

He's not a physicist - yet. But he's becoming one. It's inevitable, once you start studying this stuff.

All life is physics. Even consciousness. There's nothing magical about it, it's straightforward topology based on the fundamental symmetries of nature.

To show that it is indeed a ubiquitous mechanism, one need merely look around.

Here it is, happening on the motor side:

Phase of firing coding of learning variables across the fronto-striatal network during feature-based learning - Nature Communications

The average spiking frequency in the fronto-striatal network encodes multiple types of learning-relevant information. Here, the authors show that populations of neurons in non-human primates also carry significant information in their phase-of-firing when learning-relevant outcomes are processed.

www.nature.com

Here it is from a memory perspective

https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.0908193106

Here it is in bats

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867418312297

Here it is in the eye movements of goldfish

Encoding of Eye Position in the Goldfish Horizontal Oculomotor Neural Integrator

Monocular organization of the goldfish horizontal neural integrator was studied during spontaneous scanning saccadic and fixation behaviors. Analysis of neuronal firing rates revealed a population of ipsilateral (37%), conjugate (59%), and contralateral ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So far we have it in every life form ever studied, even the lowly sea snail Aplysia discussed earlier.

So now the question becomes, why this mechanism, and not some other?

The answer, oddly enough, comes from AI and quantum computing. The answer is, that phase coding can easily distinguish novel information in related memories, whereas other methods can not. With most AI, changing a single pixel is enough to fool the system. But with phase encoding, the information is reliably stored and retrieved.

A regular rhythm is not necessary for phase coding. Studied in the rat hippocampus have shown clearly that information can be reliably encoded by the local field potential only - which is why it works in single cells. Because that's what you find along the cell membrane of every living cell - local field potentials.

An example comes from honeybees - where local oscillations are generated by... you guessed it... microtubules! The very same microtubules responsible for motility and cell division.

Honeybee Brain Oscillations Are Generated by Microtubules. The Concept of a Brain Central Oscillator

Microtubules (MTs) are important structures of the cytoskeleton in neurons. Mammalian brain MTs act as biomolecular transistors that generate highly synchronous electrical oscillations. However, their role in brain function is largely unknown. To gain ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

They're only just now starting to study this at a deeper level. Here for instance are some biophysical properties outside of the cellular context:

The electrical properties of isolated microtubules - Scientific Reports

This study examines the electrical properties of isolated brain microtubules (MTs), which are long hollow cylinders assembled from αβ-tubulin dimers that form cytoskeletal structures engaged in several functions. MTs are implicated in sensory functions in cilia and flagella and cellular...

www.nature.com

Are cells conscious? The answer is not only yes, but hell yes!

The reason brains are conscious, is because the cells themselves are conscious. They are in fact self aware. And this awareness is physical, it comes from the electrical characteristics of the molecules that make up the cell.

 

[scruffy]

It's not my definition. It's everyone's definition.

Only if you believe in flat earth and green cheese.

Your definition is everything is alive.

Yep. Everything. Even empty space.

("Especially" empty space").

Yes Virginia, the universe is in fact curved and quanta can in fact be everywhere at once. Cells are conscious, and empty space is alive.

 

[scruffy]

MTs are nonlinear electrical transmission lines that produce and conduct electrical oscillations elicited by changes in either electric field and/or ionic gradients.

Two-Dimensional Brain Microtubule Structures Behave as Memristive Devices - Scientific Reports

Microtubules (MTs) are cytoskeletal structures that play a central role in a variety of cell functions including cell division and cargo transfer. MTs are also nonlinear electrical transmission lines that produce and conduct electrical oscillations elicited by changes in either electric field...

www.nature.com

Do you know how strong the electric gradient is across a cell membrane? It's HUGE, it's so big it can cause electroporation of the membrane.

Strength of electric field across membrane of - Generic - BNID 105801

bionumbers.hms.harvard.edu

Ionic gradients? EVERY cell has them. Neurons have several dozen of them at every synapse.

Active Transporters Create and Maintain Ion Gradients - Neuroscience - NCBI Bookshelf

Microtubules natively oscillate around 40 Hz, which is sufficient to encode changes in transmembrane potential in the 25 msec time frame. Stagger the microtubules, and you can divide by 1/N. In nerve cells there are typically 10-100 microtubules in an axonal cross section, which takes us below 2.5 msec, which is on the same order as the refractory period (meaning, the cell can't fire any faster, and all meaningful ion gradients can be captured during this interval).

 

[scruffy]

Single cell intelligence:

The protozoan Physarum can discover, learn, and remember how to escape from a maze.

Learning in the Single-Cell Organism Physarum polycephalum: Effect of Propofol - PubMed

Propofol belongs to a class of molecules that are known to block learning and memory in mammals, including rodents and humans. Interestingly, learning and memory are not tied to the presence of a nervous system. There are several lines of evidence indicating that single-celled organisms also...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The baffling intelligence of a single cell: The story of E. coli chemotaxis | Hacker News

news.ycombinator.com

Single Cells Are More Intelligent Than Scientists Previously Thought

Cells make choices based not just on external signals such as growth factors, but also on information received from inside the cell. Every day, humans make choices for themselves. To make sure a decision is made that is appropriate to the situation, these decisions often entail combining a range of

scitechdaily.com

 

[scruffy]

Oh yeah - this crazy guy too

Sentience and Consciousness in Single Cells: How the First Minds Emerged in Unicellular Species - PubMed

A reductionistic, bottom-up, cellular-based concept of the origins of sentience and consciousness has been put forward. Because all life is based on cells, any evolutionary theory of the emergence of sentience and consciousness must be grounded in mechanisms that take place in prokaryotes, the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Another crazy guy is Sir Roger Penrose, who has written extensively on this topic.

There is lots and lots and LOTS of evidence.

 

[scruffy]

Quantum entanglement?

Yeah, there's that too.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0303264723001429

 

[scruffy]

The Japanese are apparently unaware that Dr Stuart Hameroff (an anesthesiologist) first proposed this model in 1988.

https://journals.jps.jp/doi/pdf/10.7566/JPSCP.38.011186

 

[ding]

Only if you believe in flat earth and green cheese.

No. Only if you believe in the empirical evidence.

 

[ding]

Yep. Everything. Even empty space.

("Especially" empty space").

Yes Virginia, the universe is in fact curved and quanta can in fact be everywhere at once. Cells are conscious, and empty space is alive.

Where's the empirical evidence?

empirical: based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.

 

[scruffy]

No. Only if you believe in the empirical evidence.

I have just overwhelmed you with all manner of empirical evidence.

So far you've shown me zero.

Apparently I win.

 

[ding]

I have just overwhelmed you with all manner of empirical evidence.

So far you've shown me zero.

Apparently I win.

You've offered zero empirical evidence. I suggest you look up that word for its meaning.

 

[ding]

So far you've shown me zero.

The empirical evidence for the characteristics of living things has been observed.
Respiration, grow, excretion, reproduction, metabolization, movement, and responding to the environment have all been literally observed and are the empirical evidence that distinguishes living things from inanimate objects.

 

[scruffy]

You've offered zero empirical evidence. I suggest you look up that word for its meaning.

Wait... So you're saying all those scientific papers are wrong?

And your regurgitation of the claptrap from Google is the last word on the subject?

LMAO

The papers I presented have all been peer reviewed. You can replicate the experiments in your own living room. (I'd watch out for the Physarum though, it might find a way to escape!)

lol

 

[scruffy]

The empirical evidence for the characteristics of living things has been observed.

By whom? When? Show me the papers.

Respiration, grow, excretion, reproduction, metabolization, movement, and responding to the environment have all been literally observed and are the empirical evidence that distinguishes living things from inanimate objects.

Show me the research.

I'll bet you $100 right now it uses a predefined definition of life.

Which as I've just shown, is not only inadequate but probably outright wrong.

 

[Donald H]

Cells are at least as conscious as drying paint.

 

[ding]

Wait... So you're saying all those scientific papers are wrong?

And your regurgitation of the claptrap from Google is the last word on the subject?

LMAO

The papers I presented have all been peer reviewed. You can replicate the experiments in your own living room. (I'd watch out for the Physarum though, it might find a way to escape!)

lol

I think what I am saying is there is no empirical evidence which supports inanimate objects being alive or conscious.